German Airplane Crashes In French Alps

ST4 said:
I think the information speaks for itself. Its a rather chilling and grotesque thought but its pretty clear whats happened.
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Are you sure about that, Steve.

Can you explain how the CVR (sounds to it are fed from four microphones in the flight deck) proves it was the Captain outside the flight deck trying to get in and not the FO (reportedly breathing normally :thinking:) ?

Much of what has happened and perhaps more importantly, how it came about, remains a mystery. Be interesting to see the findings of the formal inquiry, when it reports.
 
arclight said:
Are you sure about that, Steve.

Can you explain how the CVR (sounds to it are fed from four microphones in the flight deck) proves it was the Captain outside the flight deck trying to get in and not the FO (reportedly breathing normally :thinking:) ?

Much of what has happened and perhaps more importantly, how it came about, remains a mystery. Be interesting to see the findings of the formal inquiry, when it reports.
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I think it was reported that on the voice recording, the captain was heard saying he was leaving the cockpit, followed by the sound of his seat sliding backwards, so i think we can probably safely assume that it was indeed the FO that was at the controls.
 
There was also reports of the Captain asking to be let in, identifying himself in the accepted format.
 
Seems the co pilot told his girlfriend that one day the whole world would know his name.

Bet that helps the families of passengers.
 
stevewestern said:
Seems the co pilot told his girlfriend that one day the whole world would know his name.

Bet that helps the families of passengers.
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I suspect that almost the whole world has already forgotten it.

If the FDR is ever found and it is in a useable condition it had better support the current theories or there will be much gnashing of teeth.
 
stevewestern said:
Seems the co pilot told his girlfriend that one day the whole world would know his name.

Bet that helps the families of passengers.
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She said that?
Making statements like that won't hurt her income.
Heresay and sensationalism.
 
The coverage of the co-pilot's alleged health issues in the British tabloids had been appalling.

I think the Daily Mail were probably the worst: "WHY ON EARTH WAS HE ALLOWED TO FLY? Suicide pilot had long history of depression", though conoisseurs may prefer the Sun's directness: "MADMAN IN COCKPIT: Crazed rookie pilot kills 149".

There is an excellent critique/commentary of all this in the New Statesman: "Shock news: contra to the headlines, people with depression have jobs".
 
StewartR said:
The coverage of the co-pilot's alleged health issues in the British tabloids had been appalling.

I think the Daily Mail were probably the worst: "WHY ON EARTH WAS HE ALLOWED TO FLY? Suicide pilot had long history of depression", though conoisseurs may prefer the Sun's directness: "MADMAN IN COCKPIT: Crazed rookie pilot kills 149".

There is an excellent critique/commentary of all this in the New Statesman: "Shock news: contra to the headlines, people with depression have jobs".
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There are other stories on the go now that has him being treated for an eye condition. Given enough time someone will tie his health in with ebola.
 
StewartR said:
I think the Daily Mail were probably the worst: "WHY ON EARTH WAS HE ALLOWED TO FLY?
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Clearly his doctor didn't think he was as he gave him a sick note for the day he crashed the plane!
Depression doesn't bar a person from working but it may be a reason to curtail the work temporarily, whilst a recovery is worked on ... especially if peoples lives depend on the work that the depressed person is engaged in.
 
I blame Thatcher, the Israelis and Stalin, it is all their fault.
 
gramps said:
Clearly his doctor didn't think he was as he gave him a sick note for the day he crashed the plane!
Depression doesn't bar a person from working but it may be a reason to curtail the work temporarily, whilst a recovery is worked on ... especially if peoples lives depend on the work that the depressed person is engaged in.
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I wonder what condition the sick note was for ? Folk don't get signed off for a day with a mental illness.
 
arclight said:
I wonder what condition the sick note was for ? Folk don't get signed off for a day with a mental illness.
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The police are reported to have taken away a number of ripped up sick notes, it has not been stated for what length they were made out, only that the medical opinion of his doctor, according to one of them, was that he should not have been working that day.
Whether or not he had depression, the issue relating to depression where the lives of others are at risk cannot be under-stated.
 
gramps said:
Whether or not he had depression, the issue relating to depression where the lives of others are at risk cannot be under-stated.
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Right. So anybody suffering from depression shouldn't be allowed to drive a car, because that's clearly a risk to the lives of others. Is that what you're saying?
 
StewartR said:
Right. So anybody suffering from depression shouldn't be allowed to drive a car, because that's clearly a risk to the lives of others. Is that what you're saying?
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Not entirely, no.
Someone I know extremely well is undergoing treatment for serious depression at the moment and has indicated a desire to end their life ... would I want to see them driving? ... No!
Would I want to see them flying a plane with 150 people onboard? ... Are you serious?

There are all sorts of stages of depression ... my point is that if a medical doctor has said, in effect, "Don't fly, you are sick", I wouldn't want to see that person in a position to take charge of a plane with 150 passengers.
 
gramps said:
Someone I know extremely well is undergoing treatment for serious depression at the moment and has indicated a desire to end their life ... would I want to see them driving? ... No!
Would I want to see them flying a plane with 150 people onboard? ... Are you serious?
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It's not unusual for people with depression to want to end their own lives.

It's very unusual for people with depression to want to end other people's lives.

Now clearly the Germanwings copilot had some problems. But it's totally wrong to tar all depression sufferers with the same brush, which is what the tabloids did and what you seem to be doing.
 
People with mental health issues face enough stigma already - the media reaction to this tragedy won't help at all.

And when I say 'media', the worst offenders are the usual suspects.
 
There are also people who for one reason or another, decide to end their lives having shown no previous signs of clinical depression...no treatment. ..no history.
How can you ensure one of those people doesn't pilot a commercial aircraft, or drive a train, or a bus?
You can't.
Demonising those who suffer with depression will achieve absolutely nothing.

One man flew one 'plane into the ground. An outrage. ..a tragedy, yes. But preventing those with depression from operating as pilots..is ridiculous.

14 years ago, a group of men of middle eastern origin flew 'planes into three buildings in the US and another into the ground, resulting in the deaths of over 2000 people.
Did we then ban such people from boarding aircraft "just in case"?
No.
 
gramps said:
Not entirely, no.
Someone I know extremely well is undergoing treatment for serious depression at the moment and has indicated a desire to end their life ... would I want to see them driving? ... No!
Would I want to see them flying a plane with 150 people onboard? ... Are you serious?

There are all sorts of stages of depression ... my point is that if a medical doctor has said, in effect, "Don't fly, you are sick", I wouldn't want to see that person in a position to take charge of a plane with 150 passengers.
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How were the sicknotes worded?
Was the stated reason depression?
 
StewartR said:
Now clearly the Germanwings copilot had some problems. But it's totally wrong to tar all depression sufferers with the same brush, which is what the tabloids did and what you seem to be doing.
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No, that's what you choose to say that I am doing ... I am actually doing no such thing.
Let me ask you then, would you be happy to fly on a plane where the co-pilot had been told by his doctor, "Don't fly today, you are sick, here's a sick note"?
 
gramps said:
Let me ask you then, would you be happy to fly on a plane where the co-pilot had been told by his doctor, "Don't fly today, you are sick, here's a sick note"?
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In this scenario, what is the reason for the sick note? If it's depression, then it wouldn't bother me in the slightest.

In case you still don't get it:
CBFxqo-WYAAGSek.png
 
Personally I think that you are completely off beam but you obviously have your reasons ... for me it isn't to do with depression per se, it's to do with whether you should be possibly risking the lives of others by going against your doctor's advice ... why would you even want to do that?
 
gramps said:
No, that's what you choose to say that I am doing ... I am actually doing no such thing.
Let me ask you then, would you be happy to fly on a plane where the co-pilot had been told by his doctor, "Don't fly today, you are sick, here's a sick note"?
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Do you know

A) what his sick note was for?
B) that it was explicit in its instruction not to work?
 
A sick note is not an instruction not to work.
It's a way of covering you with your employer should you feel not well enough to work due to a diagnosed medical reason.
 
For all we know, this pilot was given a sick note for an ear infection.
His decision to fly risked only his own hearing, not the lives of passengers.

The point is that we don't know, and as usual with lack of knowledge, people are knee-jerking themselves into a frenzy.
 
boyfalldown said:
Really? I don't know if you've ever had a sick note, but it's to show your employer you're sick. It doesn't contain any advice or instruction how to behave. So it's not to instruct you not to work.
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German authorities said on Friday they had found torn-up sick notes showing that the pilot who crashed a plane into the French Alps was suffering from an illness that should have grounded him on the day of the tragedy.

"Documents with medical contents were confiscated that point towards an existing illness and corresponding treatment by doctors," said the prosecutors' office in Duesseldorf, where the co-pilot lived and where the doomed flight from Barcelona was heading.
Torn-up doctor's notes found in his home would have excused Lubitz from work for medical reasons, for a period that included the day of the crash. That supported the view that Lubitz had "hidden his illness from his employer and his colleagues", the prosecutors said.
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Reuters News Agency
 
viv1969 said:
?..14 years ago, a group of men of middle eastern origin flew 'planes into three buildings in the US and another into the ground, resulting in the deaths of over 2000 people.
Did we then ban such people from boarding aircraft "just in case"?
No.
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Steady Ruth, there are people who'd say it was a reasonable conclusion. :eek:
 
gramps said:
Ah ok sarcasm it is then, thanks.
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It's not though is it.

In the Reuters quote you posted it says, "Torn-up doctor's notes found in his home would have excused Lubitz from work for medical reasons."

As has been pointed out, that is not an instruction to stay off work and it gives us no clue as to what the medical condition was.
 
I'm guessing no-one here knows exactly the wording on a German sick note, in fact most of us have never studied the wording on an British one. :)

The British ones have had a bit of an overhaul over the last few years, I'm guessing without a Google most of us don't have a handle on all those changes.

But we're prepared to get into a debate about a German one, and the media are happy to draw dramatic conclusions too.
 
Phil V said:
I'm guessing no-one here knows exactly the wording on a German sick note, in fact most of us have never studied the wording on an British one. ... But we're prepared to get into a debate about a German one.
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Well, it's not really much of a "debate", Phil.

One person here clearly believes that the existence of the sick note is categorical evidence that the copilot should not have been allowed to fly. Everybody else here is trying to point out that those conclusions are unwarranted.
 
Does it not depend, entirely, on what the sick notes said? Something nobody on here is aware of yet.

If sick note said "has a bit of a cold and feels a bit down" then should he have been able to carry on, if sick note said "suicidial and seeks attention on a galactic scale",then methinks not.
 
fracster said:
Does it not depend, entirely, on what the sick notes said? Something nobody on here is aware of yet.
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But presumably the prosecutors do, but aren't saying. Which seems a little odd.
 
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