Gas/electric bills

Just about everything we consume, touch or use "May or may not be" a Carcinogen.
It's today's buzz word, don't cha know?

But is amazing the 2 people to argue against my "list" picked on the one point that I threw in, just for the hell of it (y)
 
Cobra said:
But is amazing the 2 people to argue against my "list" picked on the one point that I threw in, just for the hell of it (y)
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Because it's the point which demonstrates that you don't want to have a rational debate about it. You previously rubbished my positive experience of smart meters from a position of ignorance. You don't want one, and we get that, and it's OK. Really, it's OK if you don't want one. But it's just stupid to try to defend your position the way you did.
 
StewartR said:
But it's just stupid to try to defend your position the way you did.
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The 6 points points are valid, and as yet no one has proven the carcinogen point either way, so thats still in the balance,
As per your mobile phone argument, ( or was that the other guy?) mobiles have only been around 5 minutes in the scheme of things,
And who will fund the research to prove / disprove the supposition?
I can't see the likes of Apple taking the risk can you?
Same applies to the smart meter risk., who will fund the research? British Gas? Eon? or any of the others...
I can't see them taking the risk either.
My points are just as valid as yours.

StewartR said:
You previously rubbished my positive experience of smart meters
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I did no such thing, you put forward your positive experience / opinion, of a smart meter,
I put forward my opinion, from years of experience without a smart meter, Just because it may work for you, it doesn't mean that everyone has to fall in line behind you,
you are not the only one with / allowed to have an opinion or positive experiences you know!
 
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Mozthecat said:
.... the possibility of half hour readings, alllowing them to surge price in peak demand.

At work we have also had incorrect readings by a meter reader which required time, effort and energy to resolve on both sides...
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So, you think that they will have higher readings at peak times?
Most individuals (and companies) have a flat unit rate or day - night rate.
Do you really think that they will up the volume by a few kWh to benefit??


By having accurate HH meter readings, National Grid will look to have a better balance of supply and demand and balance the system.
Imbalances (like when they talk about wind farms being paid to turn off) are a result of inaccurate supply and demand ... and ultimately the consumer pays for this via BSUoS (Balancing Use of System) - a charge that is added to the supplier who passes it to the consumer. By having more accurate readings, they can reduce the imbalance.

Look at the profit margins of the big Six - approx 5-7% with investment running into the billions - do you really think they are ripping people off??
 
No but they could start to price each kWh higher in peak periods, in the same way landline calls are more expensive per minute during the day. This would be to encourage users to balance out their demand. HH makes this possible.

For example some high end Samsung fridges can be set to do the bulk of their cooling in off peak periods, the kilns I sell have a delayed start function so they can be run on night rates as do most washing machines.
 
Mozthecat said:
No but they could start to price each kWh higher in peak periods, in the same way landline calls are more expensive per minute during the day. This would be to encourage users to balance out their demand. HH makes this possible.
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omens said:
Looks like you were right:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...lead-surge-pricing-admits-Scottish-Power.html

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...-let-companies-change-cost-electricity-every/
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Crikey. How bad is that Daily Mail article?

"... a former chief staffer at energy regulator Ofgem warned the introduction of surge pricing was the 'hidden agenda' behind the smart meter rollout."
- Hidden agenda? Only if you've been living under a rock. It's obvious. And to be welcomed. People already understand that the prices of many things - like train tickets, and holidays - vary depending on the demand, and that the people who are prepared to pay the highest prices subsidise those who can afford to be flexible.

"The controversial scheme ... could lead to soaring costs for watching television, charging electronic devices and running the washing machine."
- TVs typically cost about 0.1p per hour to run. Charging a phone costs about 0.01p. How much do those numbers have to go up before people start to worry about them? (I'll accept that washing machine are expensive to run though.)

"Energy prices on the new tariffs will peak on special occasions such as Christmas Day and Easter when millions of households are using electricity or gas at the same time"
- No, no, no, no, no. Energy prices will be lower on special occasions such as Christmas Day and Easter (and at weekends) because industrial users aren't using much.
 
StewartR said:
Crikey. How bad is that Daily Mail article?
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It was a paste-and-run article and I don't normally like quoting daily mail because it's a crap source, but about the only two articles I found on this.

Some people already have tariffs for paying less for using energy at night or "off-peak" but with that, you can plan ahead. Changing prices every 30 minutes would be a nightmare - you wouldn't be able to predict when it'd be cheaper or more expensive. Even with train tickets or holidays, you can plan around it or take the hit.
 
As far as I can tell the only way to save money on your bills is to use less at the cheapest tariff ... and a smart meter can't help there! :D
 
omens said:
Some people already have tariffs for paying less for using energy at night or "off-peak" but with that, you can plan ahead. Changing prices every 30 minutes would be a nightmare - you wouldn't be able to predict when it'd be cheaper or more expensive. Even with train tickets or holidays, you can plan around it or take the hit.
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I didn't infer from that article any intention to vary the prices in an unpredictable fashion. Most peaks and troughs in demand are quite predictable - see the National Grid monitoring site https://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/ for an illustration - and it would be quite straightforward to devise, and to communicate, tariffs which reflect this.

But even if such "unpredictable" tariffs are offered, nobody would be forced to accept one. I can envisage there might be three basic types of tariffs:
  1. "constant" tariffs, where you pay the same price for energy 24/365;
  2. "off peak" tariffs, where you pay less for energy at certain well-defined times of the day / week (eg overnight and weekends);
  3. "responsive" tariffs, where the price can vary at short notice and the energy can be very cheap at times of low demand and high availability (eg on a sunny and windy summer weekend afternoon).
Overall, you'd expect type 2 to be cheaper than type 1 for those who can make use of them, and type 3 to be the cheapest for those who can make use of them. Why? Because type 3 minimises the overall cost of energy production, by reducing demand at times when it's expensive and increasing demand at times when it's cheap.

I already have a type 3 tariff, sort of. We have solar panels on our roof. If we don't use the electricity they generate, we export it to the grid, but the export price isn't as high as the price for electricity we use from the grid, so it makes financial sense to use the electricity we generate. That's why on sunny days (or, at least, days which are forecast to be sunny) we programme the washing machine and/or dishwasher to run in the afternoon using "our" solar electricity. In the future I expect that my washing machine, dishwasher, central heating, car charger etc will be able to connect to the internet to find out when electricity is going to be cheap and to take advantage of that. But type 3 tariffs won't take off until that's widely possible. Maybe car chargers will be the catalyst.
 
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My electricity company and government do this to me.

They charge me for electricity full price.

They force me to sell 50% of the electricity generated by my solar system to them for a fraction of what I pay for electricity.

So they tell me how much I'm paying and they tell me how much I'm selling it for.
 
GTG said:
They force me to sell 50% of the electricity generated by my solar system to them for a fraction of what I pay for electricity.
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No, you've got that completely wrong.

They pay you to generate the electricity, regardless of whether you use it or not.
If you use it, it's free to you, and you're still paid for generating it.
If you don't use it, they'll take it off your hands, and they'll pay you for exporting it as well as for generating it.

For example, here's how the economics of our solar panels stack up.
  • For every kWh which we generate and use, we get paid 14.46p to generate it and we save 13.31p through not having to buy a kWh to use. The total benefit to us is 27.77p per kWh.
  • For every kWh which we generate but don't use, we get paid 14.46p to generate it and we get paid a further 5.24p to export it. The total benefit to us is 19.70p per kWh.
Your numbers will be slightly different, but the principle is the same.
 
GTG said:
They force me to sell 50% of the electricity generated by my solar system to them for a fraction of what I pay for electricity.

So they tell me how much I'm paying and they tell me how much I'm selling it for.
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They actually force you to sell them electricity? Can you not keep it all?
 
StewartR said:
No, you've got that completely wrong.

They pay you to generate the electricity, regardless of whether you use it or not.
If you use it, it's free to you, and you're still paid for generating it.
If you don't use it, they'll take it off your hands, and they'll pay you for exporting it as well as for generating it.

For example, here's how the economics of our solar panels stack up.
  • For every kWh which we generate and use, we get paid 14.46p to generate it and we save 13.31p through not having to buy a kWh to use. The total benefit to us is 27.77p per kWh.
  • For every kWh which we generate but don't use, we get paid 14.46p to generate it and we get paid a further 5.24p to export it. The total benefit to us is 19.70p per kWh.
Your numbers will be slightly different, but the principle is the same.
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This is pretty interesting, I'd love to have solar panels installed. Approximately how much did it cost to install the panels? Have you figured out how long the payback period would be?
 
john.margetts said:
They actually force you to sell them electricity? Can you not keep it all?
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Pray tell, how do you envisage we store energy?
Batteries I hear yo ucry.
Well, that is the way forward - but at the moment the capacity that they hols is not financially viable.

Going forward, we will have various forms of microgeneration (photo voltaic, wind turbine, ground source heat), and this will be kept in a battery. This will enable households to use their stored energy at peak price times.... Something like this

At the moment electricity companies buy electricity and they are charged in half hour increments. They then work out a typical household will use and price a flat / 2tier rate accordingly.
Smart meters (which record in half hour interval or lower) allow a more accurate estimate of usage.....
 
Geoham said:
This is pretty interesting, I'd love to have solar panels installed. Approximately how much did it cost to install the panels? Have you figured out how long the payback period would be?
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We have 16 panels of 250W each, so a total installed capacity of 4kW, and it cost us £6000 including installation in May 2015. We live in an expensive part of the country though, so where you are the installation might be cheaper. And ours is a fairly highly specified system; it would certainly have been possible to buy cheaper components than we did.

11202894_991224344236144_8038173302697341654_n.jpg


My estimated payback period is 7 to 10 years, and so far it's reasonably on track for that.

HOWEVER - Whether or not it's a good investment for you depends HUGELY on a number of complicated factors.

Firstly the price of panels has been coming down steadily for years. But to counter that, the tariffs that Ofgem are prepared to pay have also been coming down. If I had installed a set of panels similar to this in 2010, I'd now be getting 46.00p per kWh generated. But back then the installation would probably have cost me £25,000 and the payback period would still have been around 7 to 10 years. (But I'd be raking it in after I had achieved payback!) If you made a similar installation today, the tariff would be only 3.93p per kWh. I believe Ofgem have been fixing the tariffs so that the payback has always been fairly constant. But you absolutely should check that.

Full details of Feed-In Tariff (FIT) rates here: https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/environmental-programmes/fit/fit-tariff-rates

Secondly, whether or not solar power is a good idea depends on where you are, and where your roof points. We're in the south-east of England, where it's reasonably sunny. You can see from the picture that our roof has a reasonably shallow inclination (22° to be precise), and it points to within 20° of due south. The optimal orientation at our latitude would be an inclination of 38° and facing exactly due south, and that would deliver about 4% more electricity over the course of a year. So ours is pretty good given where it is. But a similar roof further towards the south coast, in Sussex or Kent, would be expected to generate about 20% more electricity. And here's the bad news. Your forum profile says you're in Airdrie. Relocate my roof to Airdrie and it would generate about 16% less electricity due to it being (a) further north and (b) less sunny.

For chapter and verse regarding the performance of solar panels, see Chapter 3 of the MCS (Micro-generation Certification Scheme) Installation Guide, and the MCS Solar Irradiance datasets, available at https://www.microgenerationcertification.org/mcs-standards/installer-standards/solar-pv/

Happy to discuss if you have any questions.
 
I am with Tonik Energy and I pay £39 a month for 1 person (and a cat) in a two bedroom terraced house.

Electricity Unit Rate: 12.5p per kWh
Electricity Standing Charge: 20p per day
Gas Unit Rate: 2.66p per kWh
Gas Standing Charge: 22.65p per day

Gas heating & hob, electric oven, and the usual other appliances.

The tariff is also one of their green tariffs & you get interest on your balance in credit. I switched in December so even with the 'beast from the east' I'm well into credit ready to go into this winter & happy so far.

my dad has been with them some time and they were one of the two cheapest companies (who had good customer service reviews) so i went with them based on his feedback. they don't normally appear on switch websites because those websites can't carry out the switch for you - but its not really a big deal, you just go to the Tonik website and start the ball rolling from there. If someone refers you, you both get a £20 amazon voucher. I wasn't aware of this til literally 30mins after i'd set up the switch and i emailed them asking if they could still honour it as 100% i went with them because of my dad's recommendation and they honoured it.

Previously I was in a 1 bed flat and was with a supplier run by my local authority (I'm in an Essex borough) in partnership with Ovo which was £48 a month - i would never now go with Ovo based on that experience as it was a s*** show. Extremely poor communications between the company and often, despite ringing the number for the LA energy company, someone from Ovo would answer and didn't even know about the difference with the LA (prices were slightly better, no exit fee, things like that) so would talk to me like I was making stuff up. Their online system was widly inaccurate, it even had a disclaimer basically saying to ignore the usage data! I would email the LA, and in the beginnign the emails were ignored because they weren't going anywhere! and were usually then answered by someone from Ovo with no clue! They also used to send meter readings and statement reminders using Ovo branded emails, which would confuse people if they were not aware of the partnership (it should have been LA) and i always seemed to be emailing them to question some inaccuracy in their bills.

taking a monthly reading p***ed me off (hadnt done it in any previous company) as i had to trudge round the side of my building in the dark when it was all muddy and risk treading in my irresponsible neighbours dogs turds! Thats not their fault, but they what made it annoying is they would send emails about "hey we're fitting smart meters in your area!" and then you go on to book and there would no appoitnments - they'd offer you one appointment and if you couldnt do it (usually during the day) your only option was to agree to any thing last minute which no one would want to do!

I now don't mind so much with the monthly readings as now i've moved it's just in the cupboard outside the front door - they've offered a smart meter but i think i'd rather do it myself so i knwo its correct. i think i'm pretty frugal when it comes to electricity/gas so i don't see a huge benefit in return for having to take time off for it being fitted and it possibly not working if i was to switch supplier. I have enough things to obsess over, and half hourly energy readings would just stress me out. If i had a high fuel bill, or a difference maybe i'd think differently and feel it was a benefit.

ok, rant over. - go with tonik :)

someone else on here mentioned Avro - they were the other option I was close to choosing - not much in it on the price.
 
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Quite pleased with NPower, just had my bill reduced by £10 a month :D
Makes me wonder if the meter readers they used to send round ever read it properly.
Last time one came round I wasn't happy that he had read it properly so took a phone pic, and
when the bill came, yes it was way over the reading
I did get a hefty refund last time I read it, apparently they aren't allowed to hold onto your money
anymore (y)
 
I'm also with Tonik E7, £65 a month, for 2 adults and a baby, in a detached 3-bed house with an EV and solar panels. Original bill was £48 a month (non-E7) before EV.

So that's driving 800 miles a month for £17. :woot:Last time I fuelled up my 55-60mpg diesel, it was costing me £40 to cover 400 miles.

StewartR said:
  1. "constant" tariffs, where you pay the same price for energy 24/365;
  2. "off peak" tariffs, where you pay less for energy at certain well-defined times of the day / week (eg overnight and weekends);
  3. "responsive" tariffs, where the price can vary at short notice and the energy can be very cheap at times of low demand and high availability (eg on a sunny and windy summer weekend afternoon).
Overall, you'd expect type 2 to be cheaper than type 1 for those who can make use of them, and type 3 to be the cheapest for those who can make use of them. Why? Because type 3 minimises the overall cost of energy production, by reducing demand at times when it's expensive and increasing demand at times when it's cheap.

I already have a type 3 tariff, sort of. We have solar panels on our roof. If we don't use the electricity they generate, we export it to the grid, but the export price isn't as high as the price for electricity we use from the grid, so it makes financial sense to use the electricity we generate. That's why on sunny days (or, at least, days which are forecast to be sunny) we programme the washing machine and/or dishwasher to run in the afternoon using "our" solar electricity. In the future I expect that my washing machine, dishwasher, central heating, car charger etc will be able to connect to the internet to find out when electricity is going to be cheap and to take advantage of that. But type 3 tariffs won't take off until that's widely possible. Maybe car chargers will be the catalyst.
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I agree with the above prediction. Smart meters and smart battery chargers are the future. (not only cars)

Our EV is plugged in from 5pm to 7am, 14 hours. But it is only charging during E7 hours because it has a dumb charger. I'd love to be able to charge at lower electric tariff by setting a desired battery state at 7am and let the smart charger work out best time to charge.

We have a combination of type 2 and type 3 tariff. Vast majority of our grid electricity usage is to charge the EV at 8p/kWh off-peak. During the day, if it is sunny (type 3 responsive), my wife at home will set the washing machine going and/or the dishwasher. Excess electricity from solar panels will trigger my gaming computer to automatically wake up and start minding cryptocurrency, when excess disappears, my computer will auto-shutdown. It's essentially free money!

Only time we use expensive day-time electricity is after sunset before E7 kicks in. This is where I think a battery system will help us.

With a home battery system, we'll be able to switch to Tide tariff, it is a cross between Type 2 and Type 3: https://www.greenenergyuk.com/Tide
- 6.4p/kWh overnight for charging EV and house battery
- 14.2p/kWh during the day for a few short moments we draw from the grid
(our solar is E-W facing 2.9kWp, maximum it can produce is 2kW. 3kW appliances will need the grid or home battery. As long as it is producing more than 1.2kW, it is cheaper to use 3kW appliance than during E7 hours. Benefit of E-W facing is longer overall production time, so my computer can mine for longer)
- 30p/kWh during evening which we will never use thanks to home battery system.
 
Has anyone used PURE PLANET for their gas/elec?
Whilst they have a variable rate, I have seen that they provide me with the largest saving based on my usage.

If you have any dealings (positive/negative) can you please let me know
 
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