Gas/electric bills

[StewartR]

OVO, I was with them some time ago, I liked the ethos of the company and they were competitive and efficient, then they got expensive. Just had another look at them using a couple of energy comparison sites. For my Kwh annual usage, dual fuel, online account that came out + £235.00 more than I am paying. That was a ‘Better Energy’ tariff. Now I am happy to pay a little more if a supplier treats me right but not that much.

Fair enough. I check the prices every year and last time around they weren't absolutely the cheapest for us, but they weren't far off, and they were only beaten by a few companies I'd never heard of, and I think the smart meter functionality is definitely worth paying a bit more for (in terms of the tariff rate) because of the proven benefits it delivers. YMMV.

 

[Cobra]

and I think the smart meter functionality is definitely worth paying a bit more for (in terms of the tariff rate)

All companies ( well most, certainly the big six) are now offering smart meters FOC.
I read somewhere, ( but that escapes me for a minute) that the government wants everyone on a smart meter by 2020
but its not compulsory, although the stuff I keep getting from EON tries to convince me that it is...

 

[badlywornroy]

Fair enough. I check the prices every year and last time around they weren't absolutely the cheapest for us, but they weren't far off, and they were only beaten by a few companies I'd never heard of, and I think the smart meter functionality is definitely worth paying a bit more for (in terms of the tariff rate) because of the proven benefits it delivers. YMMV.

Please explain to a sceptic how " the smart meter functionality is definitely worth paying a bit more for " ?

For some people maybe but I read my meters weekly, I know what appliances use the most electricity. I do the simple things to conserve energy (and save money) e.g turn the room thermostat down a degree if we are going out for long. Turn off rads in unused rooms, use low wattage bulbs, etc etc.

None of this is rocket science and i agree it can be difficult 'training' the children to be frugal. That ship has sailed for us.

I have resisted a smart meter and will continue to do so unless someone can convince me otherwise. (the door is ajar for you )

 

[Nod]

They're really good.
* Customer service is responsive.
* They pay 5% interest on any credit in our account.
* They operate "fair" pricing - when it's time to renew our annual contract we get offered the same prices as new customers.
* We have smart meters which really are useful (unlike most). There's an online facility to look at graphs of your energy usage, by month / week / day / half-hour time slot. For example here's our electricity usage yesterday.
View attachment 130386
We used the detailed data on our gas consumption, together with detailed temperature data from our Hive thermostats, to work out how the heating system responds - how long it takes to heat up and cool down etc - and therefore how to tweak it to maintain a comfortable temperature with minimal energy usage. We reduced our gas bill by about 15% as a result.

The switch over was totally painless. We have smart meters do we don't need to worry about readings, but previously they would email us to remind us that readings were due and we would enter them via the website. Easy.

All in all, highly recommended.

How easy is it to get a refund of overpayments off them if necessary? At a 5% interest rate on any credit in your account, it's worth lobbing as much as you can afford into the account!

 

[Bobsyeruncle]

How easy is it to get a refund of overpayments off them if necessary? At a 5% interest rate on any credit in your account, it's worth lobbing as much as you can afford into the account!

They won't let you overpay too much

 

[StewartR]

Please explain to a sceptic how " the smart meter functionality is definitely worth paying a bit more for " ?

I thought I did, in post #76. But read on, I'll try to explain it again.

All companies ( well most, certainly the big six) are now offering smart meters FOC.
I read somewhere, ( but that escapes me for a minute) that the government wants everyone on a smart meter by 2020...

Yes, but the key thing isn't the smart meter itself, it's what the energy supplier does with the data.

One of the benefits that's claimed for smart meters is that you don't have to read them and you will automatically get correct bills. Well, that's true. Smart meters record your usage and send the data to your supplier. But smart meters send in nearly 5000 readings per quarter (once every half hour) and your supplier only uses 1 of them for your bill.

Another benefit that's claimed for smart meters is that they show you how much energy you're using, and this can help you be more economical. The first part of that is true - they give you a device to display your usage in real time, or you can get it via a smartphone app or a website - but I'm skeptical about the second part. It's not easy to use a real-time display to work out how much things cost over a period of time.

What Ovo do, and I think most other suppliers do not, is make all those half hourly readings available to you to via their app and website. That enables you to see exactly what's going on.

The example I gave earlier in post #76 was to do with the central heating system. On cold winter days you ideally want the house to be warm when you're there and awake, but you don't want to be paying to heat it when you're not there or asleep. Trouble is, there can be a long lag time for the house to warm up and cool down. So ideally you want to switch the heating on before you get up or get in, so the house is warm by the time you need it to be warm, but no earlier or later. And you want to switch it off before you go out or go to bed, so it stays just warm enough, but again no earlier or later than necessary. What the Ovo half-hourly data allowed us to do was see how much energy we were using, and how many half-hours it took before the house had warmed up or cooled down. So we were able to fine tune the heating, setting exactly the right on/off times.

 

[Cobra]

One of the benefits that's claimed for smart meters is that you don't have to read them and you will automatically get correct bills. Well, that's true. Smart meters record your usage and send the data to your supplier. But smart meters send in nearly 5000 readings per quarter (once every half hour) and your supplier only uses 1 of them for your bill.

Yeah I do that too, when requested it takes 2 minutes or less to read both meters and fill in the details on line.
So are these smart meters plugged in to your electric supply or do you have to buy batteries for them?

So ideally you want to switch the heating on before you get up or get in, so the house is warm by the time you need it to be warm, but no earlier or later. And you want to switch it off before you go out or go to bed, so it stays just warm enough, but again no earlier or later than necessary.

I have a digital control panel / time clock / thermostat that does all that for me

Another benefit that's claimed for smart meters is that they show you how much energy you're using, and this can help you be more economical.

As above I use what I need, no more no less.
As my "System" has worked perfectly for me over many years, I have no reason to change or send data over my internet connection for the company's convenience.

 

[Bobsyeruncle]

Yeah I do that too, when requested it takes 2 minutes or less to read both meters and fill in the details on line.
So are these smart meters plugged in to your electric supply or do you have to buy batteries for them?


I have a digital control panel / time clock / thermostat that does all that for me


As above I use what I need, no more no less.
As my "System" has worked perfectly for me over many years, I have no reason to change or send data over my internet connection for the company's convenience.

It doesn't use your internet connection.

 

[Nod]

Gen 1 "smart" meters appear to be locked to the original suppliers' systems (or have rather limited functionality for the home owner should they switch suppliers). If/when assorted problems with the system(s) get ironed out, I might consider one.

 

[Nod]

It doesn't use your internet connection.

How do they send the info to the suppliers?

 

[badlywornroy]

I thought I did, in post #76. But read on, I'll try to explain it again.

As you quoted me I feel I ought to respond, however Cobra made a decent 'fist' of presenting the 'other' view.

I did say in my earlier post this will suit "some people" but not me.

Some people who:

1. Have no time or inclination to read their meters and understand the figures.
2. Have no interest in taking responsibility for their energy usage.
3. Are prepared to spend extra so they can look at a gadget with a screen and worry about what they see.

I guess I could be accused of OCD because I have read my meters weekly for many years and retain the readings. I submit the figures monthly to my provider (so no estimated bills, one of the perceived benefits of smart meters)

So I can see if my energy usage is increasing, I can even see if my energy usage (KwH's) for any given week/month is different this year to last year.

I'm quite happy that these smart meters are out there and people have a choice. Just the fact that it is a gadget with a screen will make it extremely attractive to many people.

But not for me thank you, I am old school I guess ?

 

[boliston]

£75 per mnth gas and electric, 30 yr old boiler, detached house.

https://www.avroenergy.co.uk/

just done their quote and it's £84 per year more than my current supplier - gas seems good value at 3.071p but electric is an eye watering 13.193p per unit

 

[Meeten]

How do they send the info to the suppliers?

The information from your meter goes first into a communications hub that is usually built into the electricity meter, and then through radio waves to the communications company.
A Smart Meter sends data through the Wide Area Network (WAN) to the company responsible for collecting the data and passing it on to other businesses such as suppliers.

The electricity meter is mains powered but the gas meter is battery powered.
The gas meter battery can be replaced by a Smart Meter Installer and is excepted to last the life of the meter, however its life can be greatly reduced heavy communications such as repeated firmware updates.

Under Ofgem codes published July 2013, you can dictate how much data your energy supplier can retrieve from your smart meter and whether your supplier can share that information with third parties.
You can also decide whether or not your supplier can use that information for marketing purposes.Just call your supplier if you want to check or change your preferences.

 

[StewartR]

... As my "System" has worked perfectly for me over many years, I have no reason to change or send data over my internet connection for the company's convenience.

Why are you arguing with me?

I was asked specifically to explain how smart meters have been beneficial *to me*. I did so, at some length, because I was trying to be helpful to the member who asked. I was not arguing in favour of smart meters generally and I was careful to offer a balanced view of the so-called benefits that are widely touted for them. I'm not trying to start an argument.

But since you want an argument:

I have a digital control panel / time clock / thermostat that does all that for me ... I use what I need, no more no less.

Sorry, but no, you have no idea. Your heating controls don't know how long it takes to heat up the house, or how long the house stays warm after the boiler switches off. And nor do you, until you're able to look at data like the charts I've pasted below. So you really don't know how much scope there is to save energy and money, which is the position we used to be in before we started looking at the smart meter data.

That's OK. You might not care, you might not have the analytical ability, and you might have better things to do with your time. But rubbishing my experience from a position of ignorance doesn't really help anyone.

 

[StewartR]

Gen 1 "smart" meters appear to be locked to the original suppliers' systems (or have rather limited functionality for the home owner should they switch suppliers). If/when assorted problems with the system(s) get ironed out, I might consider one.

Absolutely. The roll out programme has been a complete dog's breakfast.

The second-generation meters will comply with the SMETS2 standards which means they will work in the same way regardless of which energy supplier you have. But even then, if the supplier doesn't do anything useful with the data, and doesn't allow the consumer to do anything useful with the data, then the benefits to consumers are extremely limited.

 

[stevetiler]

Does anyone have an easy answer to finding out what a specific item is using energy wise over say a month? We have a hot-tub which is set to a specific temp so when the temp drops the heater kicks in - it also has 2 "filtration periods a day
Short of turning everything off which is just not practical I can't fathom how to do it !

 

[tijuana taxi]

Does anyone have an easy answer to finding out what a specific item is using energy wise over say a month? We have a hot-tub which is set to a specific temp so when the temp drops the heater kicks in - it also has 2 "filtration periods a day
Short of turning everything off which is just not practical I can't fathom how to do it !

Would think there would be a mathematical way if you have all the required data.
Not my strong point though, do you know a physics or maths teacher?

 

[omens]

Does anyone have an easy answer to finding out what a specific item is using energy wise over say a month? We have a hot-tub which is set to a specific temp so when the temp drops the heater kicks in - it also has 2 "filtration periods a day
Short of turning everything off which is just not practical I can't fathom how to do it !

Do it the opposite way? Turn off the hot tub (I imagine it has it's own fuse) and take a before and after reading over 24 hrs, then switch it on and do the same.

 

[Nod]

Does anyone have an easy answer to finding out what a specific item is using energy wise over say a month? We have a hot-tub which is set to a specific temp so when the temp drops the heater kicks in - it also has 2 "filtration periods a day
Short of turning everything off which is just not practical I can't fathom how to do it !

Get an electrician to fit a meter on the feed to the hot tub. It (the meter) won't affect the supply meter that the supplier reads (occasionally!).

 

[StewartR]

Does anyone have an easy answer to finding out what a specific item is using energy wise over say a month? We have a hot-tub which is set to a specific temp so when the temp drops the heater kicks in - it also has 2 "filtration periods a day
Short of turning everything off which is just not practical I can't fathom how to do it !

How is it connected? If it uses a standard 3-pin plug, get one of these. There are loads of different ones available and they cost about £10.

 

[Cobra]

Why are you arguing with me?

I'm not arguing, with you, I'm just saying "How it works for me"

Your heating controls don't know how long it takes to heat up the house, or how long the house stays warm after the boiler switches off.

No but I do
In the winter it's set to be warm, when I get up, ( don't you hate a cold bathroom?) and its starting to cool down, just before I leave, as above works for me

You might not care, you might not have the analytical ability, and you might have better things to do with your time.

Correct

But rubbishing my experience from a position of ignorance doesn't really help anyone.

Of course I am ignorant, of your circumstance. I wouldn't have it any other way
But it obviously works for you, as does my "system" for me

 

[Cobra]

The electricity meter is mains powered but the gas meter is battery powered.

Didn't know that, thats interesting
I take it, its wired to the incoming supply rather than the out going supply in that case.

Under Ofgem codes published July 2013, you can dictate how much data your energy supplier can retrieve from your smart meter and whether your supplier can share that information with third parties.
You can also decide whether or not your supplier can use that information for marketing purposes.Just call your supplier if you want to check or change your preferences.

It's all in the small print no doubt

 

[Graham W]

Do it the opposite way? Turn off the hot tub (I imagine it has it's own fuse) and take a before and after reading over 24 hrs, then switch it on and do the same.

I'd be inclined to take the second reading the day after turning it back on when it would be "ticking over".

 

[Matt-]

I thought I did, in post #76. But read on, I'll try to explain it again.

Yes, but the key thing isn't the smart meter itself, it's what the energy supplier does with the data.

One of the benefits that's claimed for smart meters is that you don't have to read them and you will automatically get correct bills. Well, that's true. Smart meters record your usage and send the data to your supplier. But smart meters send in nearly 5000 readings per quarter (once every half hour) and your supplier only uses 1 of them for your bill.

Another benefit that's claimed for smart meters is that they show you how much energy you're using, and this can help you be more economical. The first part of that is true - they give you a device to display your usage in real time, or you can get it via a smartphone app or a website - but I'm skeptical about the second part. It's not easy to use a real-time display to work out how much things cost over a period of time.

What Ovo do, and I think most other suppliers do not, is make all those half hourly readings available to you to via their app and website. That enables you to see exactly what's going on.

The example I gave earlier in post #76 was to do with the central heating system. On cold winter days you ideally want the house to be warm when you're there and awake, but you don't want to be paying to heat it when you're not there or asleep. Trouble is, there can be a long lag time for the house to warm up and cool down. So ideally you want to switch the heating on before you get up or get in, so the house is warm by the time you need it to be warm, but no earlier or later. And you want to switch it off before you go out or go to bed, so it stays just warm enough, but again no earlier or later than necessary. What the Ovo half-hourly data allowed us to do was see how much energy we were using, and how many half-hours it took before the house had warmed up or cooled down. So we were able to fine tune the heating, setting exactly the right on/off times.

Excellent post.

I fit meters for a living so have to explain this sort of thing a lot. For some people, they are keen to learn about what they’re using, some people don’t care. I find that families with kids or larger houses benefit well. You can have a quick look before going out of the house or before going to bed to make sure everything is switched off.

I don’t see what the big deal is about not having one. A lot of old meters would need renewing anyway.

 

[badlywornroy]

MP’s ‘damming’ report on Smart Meters.

Biggest savers are the energy companies, what a surprise

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-44903471

 

[Cobra]

Biggest savers are the energy companies, what a surprise

Well I'm surprised ...... NOT !

Customers have financed the smart meter programme by paying a levy on their energy bills, while suppliers have frequently blamed the levy for rising costs.

 

[Meeten]

The report points out, if you care to read and note that this is a government backed scheme.
Thr energy companies are required to roll it out.
Rock. Hard Place.

 

[Cobra]

if you care to read and note that this is a government backed scheme.

I think we are all aware that this is another government backed fiasco.
The point being made is that the only ones benefiting are the energy companies themselves.

 

[Meeten]

The point being made is that the only ones benefiting are the energy companies themselves.

I am genuinely interested to hear how the energy companies are the beneficiaries of this scheme.
Please explain....

 

[Graham W]

I am genuinely interested to hear how the energy companies are the beneficiaries of this scheme.
Please explain....

Well for a start they can sack all the meter readers and sell their vans.

 

[Mozthecat]

Electronic pressure switches on covers that send a panic signal if you attempt to bypass are another possibility, not to mention the possibility of half hour readings, alllowing them to surge price in peak demand.

At work we have also had incorrect readings by a meter reader which required time, effort and energy to resolve on both sides...

 

[Matt-]

Well for a start they can sack all the meter readers and sell their vans.

Most have been up skilled to be meter fitters....

 

[Cobra]

From various web sources, all good enough reasons for me not to switch to one,
Oh and of course that assumes that I have a decent mobile signal, which does seem to be a "problem" for a lot of installed meters.
Maybe I'll switch in 50 years once these problems are sorted


1) Because RF radiation is a possible carcinogen, and smart meters give off RF radiation, it is possible that smart meters could increase cancer risk.

2) Smart Meters Might Disrupt WiFi. A blogger at Smart Data Collective says electricsmart meters rolled out by utilities may cause interference with WiFi. A Zigbee device within each smart meter sends a
ping about every 30 seconds to communicate with other smart meters in the vicinity, creating a mesh network.

3) Nearly all the meters so far installed are ones that lose their smart functions if you switch providers.

4) Security experts warn that the smart meters can be infected with a virus that can spread between different devices,

5) In fact, devices which are designed to reduce usage, including energy-saving LED lightbulbs and dimmer switches, can actually "change the shape" of electrical currents and distort readings. A Dutch study found this resulted in readings up to six times higher than they should have been.

6) And the £26 smart meter saving is dwarfed by the gains that can be made by switching tariff or supplier.
Currently, the proportion of households on expensive standard tarrifs stands at 75pc, with a multi-million pound government switching campaign failing to encourage families to switch.

7) Energy companies like smart meters it cuts down on ( billing) complaints and the need for meter readers

 

[Ricardodaforce]

From various web sources, all good enough reasons for me not to switch to one,
Oh and of course that assumes that I have a decent mobile signal, which does seem to be a "problem" for a lot of installed meters.
Maybe I'll switch in 50 years once these problems are sorted


1) Because RF radiation is a possible carcinogen, and smart meters give off RF radiation, it is possible that smart meters could increase cancer risk.

[emoji23][emoji23][emoji23]

Thrown your mobile phone away have you?

 

[Mozthecat]

Regarding point 6, when I have compared the only significant savings for us would be in giving up paying on receipt of the quarterly bill and switching to a monthly dd, which seems to be a minefield of fighting supplier estimates for control of my own bank account vs just plugging in a reading every three months. Therefore the standard tariff is fine for me by choice.

I will mention we have a smallish ground floor flat and I suspect the insulation factor from surrounding flats helps keep our use well below supplier expectations.

 

[Cobra]

[emoji23][emoji23][emoji23] Thrown your mobile phone away have you?

Yeah I know, it's all [PLEASE DON'T TRY TO BYPASS THE SWEAR FILTER] eh? they even had the audacity to tell us that smoking causes cancer too!

 

[Cobra]

estimates for control of my own bank account vs just plugging in a reading every three months.

Not sure about other suppliers, ( I assume they are all the same) Eon agree a monthly fee by DD
If you fall behind they ask you if you want to increase the payment, you have to agree, they can't just take it. However,

Therefore the standard tariff is fine for me by choice.

There are far too many sheep that follow, because they have been told its a good idea, you've come to your own conclusion,
and it works for you fair play

 

[Graham W]

I had one fitted. The only way I thought it would save me money was by encouraging me to change my power use behavior. (Can't believe I just wrote that. )
Before we leave the house I have a quick look at the meter to see that we've not left anything switched on.
But by far the biggest advantage is not having to clear out the cupboard under the stairs where the meters live just so that a fat sweaty man can show me his bum crack.

 

[StewartR]

1) Because RF radiation is a possible carcinogen, and smart meters give off RF radiation, it is possible that smart meters could increase cancer risk.

Sorry Cobra, but that is the most pathetic clutching-at-straws argument I've seen in a long time.

Do you have a mobile phone?
Do you have WiFi at home?
Do your neighbours have WiFi?
Do you visit shops, shopping centres, or other places which have WiFi for public use?
Do you have a microwave oven?
Do you have a radio in your car?

For all those you said yes to, can you rank them (at least approximately) in order of the levels of RF emissions at frequencies which are suspected to be harmful to health?

There are zillions of things in life that are, or are suspected to be, carcinogenic. The key is always the dosage or exposure. Unless and until you can quantify the risk, it's really not worth talking about.

 

[tijuana taxi]

British Gas has made repeated requests for my consent to install a smart meter.
When and more importantly why did they become so interested in my economical welfare?

Similar to those salesman trying to convince you that the government grants for energy saving house improvements are totally free.
One such person became very forceful on my doorstop insisting I was crazy for not wanting something for free.
He did get one bit of that statement right which necessitated his rapid departure from my property