Freelance, freelance, freelance.

[Pookeyhead]

Ah! Knew I'd filed it somewhere...

Will a degree make it easier to become a professional photographer? (Archant, Professional Photographer, May 2010)


Does your institution offer this, Pookeyhead? Do you think it may be a good idea?

Yep. We have a full visiting lecturer programme, and wherever possible (usually decided by the visiting lecturer) a portfolio clinic. Last year we had Tim Flach, Paul Hill, Simon Barber, Mishka Henner, Sean Conboy, and several people from the AoP run portfolio clinics with a keen eye on presentation. We have a very talented technician with a great deal of experience as a curator and picture framer on hand, and all our third year students exhibit professionally as a result of some heavily planned graduate shows that are well attended, both at Cube gallery Manchester, and Hoxton Gallery in London, and we usually exhibit at the AoP gallery in London, although won't be this year as they are currently sourcing new premises as they're no longer at their old place.

Presentation is a watch word. I was surprised to see poor presentation as something recognised in Degree students in that article if I'm honest. We prepare them from level 5 regarding the cost and seriousness of printing quality and presentation, and they all know they're into some financial commitment regarding a decent quality folio, and decent quality printing. Fortunately printing is something that's not a problem for them as we've invested heavily in both the equipment and training in order to use it.

All the above is not a "module" as that wouldn't even get close to covering it all, it's a work ethic firmly embedded in the whole course from the start.

This one I can identify with. I remember going through applications for a junior staff job on a paper. We had asked candidates to submit four images that they thought would go well in the paper. We got mono urban landscapes, arty nude studio poses, waterfalls and waves by the thousand... instant bin.

That's just poor preparation from the college or Uni, but there is a factor beyond our control, and it's called "being a student" Some just refuse to accept some realities. On the whole though, they are guided into a career path based on what they want to do, so that's what their folio reflects and the majority are well aware of promoting themselves and networking with the right contacts. How stupid they are with regards to who they show it to is effectively out of our control. We can only advise them that it's probably not a good idea to show their fine art work to a picture editor of a newspaper, or their reportage portfolio to a gallery curator

One final paragraph from that article:

Sums it up nicely.

Well.. not much we can do about that one. We can't actively DIScourage them, and despite every effort to impress upon them the sheer amount of hard work required to get a foot in the door, some just think they can breeze in there. That's a condition that has more to do with being 19 or 20 years old rather than an indictment of the college they went to though There's always one who has an excess of confidence. It doesn't last long, and in the long run, being deflated is the lesson they needed to learn.

Care to expand on that a little? How long ago? Film, digital, both? Did you do your own processing? What qualifications did you gain before becoming a photographer?

From around 1989 to around 2004 or 5 when I started to get more heavily involved with teaching. I've always taught along side my photographic career wherever possible. I like being around new ideas and the creative buzz of that environment. I still retain a few clients who keep me busy, but I'm no longer actively promoting myself or advertising, and I no longer have an agent. I am shooting for the pleasure of it these days - not that found it unpleasant.. but commercial work is hard work, and the work is not always what you want to do. As for quals, I have BA(Hons) and MA.. and of course PGCE and QTLS certification.

Obviously, I started on film, still love film, and still shoot film, and yes, I have processed my own as much as I have had it processed by others. I still process my own black and white film... I find it therapeutic. I rarely processed film for clients.. who does, or even did? Far too impractical. I sometimes hand printed both black and white and colour if print was what was needed, but again it's a time sink you can rarely afford. I've been fully digital since 2002.. I say fully, but I still use film.. I mean fully ABLE to work 100% digitally. I am happy and fully conversant with both, and so are our graduates.

At risk of coming under a barrage of flame here, I had no qualifications whatsoever when I started professionally. It was later in my career I gained those, and the primary motivation was for educational reasons not photographic. Despite what people think, you have to not only be a practitioner to work at HE level in most institutions but you need high level qualifications to do so.

In fairness though, I have repeated several times that you don't NEED a degree, or indeed a HND to work professionally, and the qualification alone will not guarantee anything. We actually make our students aware of this. What a degree does show however, is that you have demonstrated the ability to work in a self-led manner to a high academic and professional manner. It actually makes little difference to students. They still want a degree because they want to be part of a creative community while learning, and they want the facilities the college offers, and they also want the tuition regarding industry networking and the contacts from a very strong VL programme. Most students we get are actually quite pragmatic, and are not expecting to get a "job" from their photography degree.

So.. that's me in a nutshell. I feel like I'm being challenged somehow by your enquiries Anything you want to know?

 

[Damian Brown]

Quality rant, I did seasons for Pret and Ward Henry. I hope I didn't. It isn't an easy ride for sure. had a great time, but the last season nearly shattered my knees and I was relatively fit. 30 kids in 25 minutes - 15 frames across three different positions... that's when I thought "I'm out"

I won't say which company it was after that by that point because I enjoyed freelancing for both and met lots of great people.

 

[jon ryan]

I feel like I'm being challenged somehow by your enquiries Anything you want to know?

No so much challenging you as being a bit cynical. You do come over as a touch starry-eyed about the merits of a degree course, and from my place as a jobbing snapper who also teaches a bit - I run a number of FE courses, mostly for beginners, and teach a distance learning course for aspirant professionals (accredited to NCFE Level 4) - I struggle to see the merits of spending three years at Uni if your greatest desire is to make a living as a photographer. In my experience it takes a good few years to start making money, regardless of qualifications, and I honestly don't see that spending three years doing a course is the best investment of time. Basically, you need to learn how to drive a camera, how to process images, and, most important, how to draw up a properly costed business plan. This shouldn't take that long. My own feeling - and I haven't studied the curriculum of a B Sc photography course - is that there is a lot of padding; time spent taking moody mono shots on film and other stuff not relevant to the real world of professional photography.

I am very much in favour of higher education, just concerned abut how some of it is framed.

 

[POAH]

I am very much in favour of higher education, just concerned abut how some of it is framed.

university's are no longer charitys they are money making entities so they have to pad things out. if they didn't run so many pointless art courses they would have money to teach courses that actually make a difference :|

 

[jon ryan]

Art is worthless, is it?

 

[Pookeyhead]

No so much challenging you as being a bit cynical. You do come over as a touch starry-eyed about the merits of a degree course,

Fair enough.. maybe I do.. but hopefully if you read my posts properly I'm also very cynical of some. I've also stated several times that you don't need a degree at all, and I've also been very keen to point out that a HND will get you more work easier, and that the industry actually prefer it. People still want degrees though... probably because they go beyond the core subject being taught.. it's more of a life changing experience as well for a 19 year old remember. A great deal of personal growth takes place.

and from my place as a jobbing snapper who also teaches a bit - I run a number of FE courses, mostly for beginners, and teach a distance learning course for aspirant professionals (accredited to NCFE Level 4) - I struggle to see the merits of spending three years at Uni if your greatest desire is to make a living as a photographer.

Because some want to be artists, or curators, or editors, or agents, or they want to go beyond as you call it, a jobbing snapper. Some want to go into a more art oriented industry such as fashion for example. A HND will be useless for them. Different courses do different things for different reasons.

In my experience it takes a good few years to start making money, regardless of qualifications, and I honestly don't see that spending three years doing a course is the best investment of time.

To just get out there and start earning a crust, no, its not. You'd be better with a HND for that. I've maintained that all along

Basically, you need to learn how to drive a camera, how to process images, and, most important, how to draw up a properly costed business plan. This shouldn't take that long. My own feeling - and I haven't studied the curriculum of a B Sc photography course - is that there is a lot of padding; time spent taking moody mono shots on film and other stuff not relevant to the real world of professional photography.

There's no padding believe me... we're pushed very hard to incluse everything. A photography degree is a BA not a BSc BTW. No one instructs anyone to take moody mono anything unless that's the direction the student wishes to take.

I am very much in favour of higher education, just concerned abut how some of it is framed.

Well cynicism is healthy

university's are no longer charitys they are money making entities so they have to pad things out. if they didn't run so many pointless art courses they would have money to teach courses that actually make a difference :|

...but you take cynicism to a whole new level. That chip on your shoulder must be really heavy. You want a world without art? LOL... Oh how I want to see your work POAH.

 

[Richard King]

I would do a course with you, you have a good attitude

 

[Pookeyhead]

Thank you. Despite all the cynicism levelled at HE since the coalition government ruined it, those of us still at the chalk-face do it because we're passionate about passing on the knowledge of the medium we love.. despite how my forum writing style makes people misunderstand me. I can't help my writing style any more than I can help my shoe size

 

[phil8139]

If Carlsberg did 'Off topic' discussions.......

Can't help but feel that this thread will do some serious help to the silent followers. A healthy discussion tinged with a feeling of 'Pistols at dawn'

On a more grown up level, the topic is interesting as my son is contemplating going to Uni and my personal feeling is "Why". Some of the points raised have given me a better insight to the workings of why and for what. Thanks to the contributers, keep it at this level.

Phil.

 

[Richard King]

If Carlsberg did 'Off topic' discussions.......

Can't help but feel that this thread will do some serious help to the silent followers. A healthy discussion tinged with a feeling of 'Pistols at dawn'

On a more grown up level, the topic is interesting as my son is contemplating going to Uni and my personal feeling is "Why". Some of the points raised have given me a better insight to the workings of why and for what. Thanks to the contributers, keep it at this level.

Phil.

this is a tricky one

On the one hand, if I were 18 and wanting a career, then the options are bewildering and a bit of a Hobsons Choice. As a 40 something with a couple of degrees, a OND, HND and a diploma in Optics.. all in science related subjects (including the HND in photography) doing a Degree in an arts subject is quite tempting. Will it get me any jobs - nope, it would be only a case of furthering ones mind

Back to look at the OU again

 

[phil8139]

this is a tricky one

On the one hand, if I were 18 and wanting a career, then the options are bewildering and a bit of a Hobsons Choice.

And herein lies my dilemma, at 18 he is like many of his age - no certain direction to follow, no chosen or passionate path to follow. The options are more than bewildering. After going to a recent parent evening, I can't help but get the feeling that they want to get as many 'applications' to Uni rather than guide the child into a targetted course that best suits his qualities. I know they can only work with the subjects they have chosen but the drive seems lacking.

As for me, I am paperless in exams from schooling but now relish and do courses that stretch my mind. I don't want the same path travelled and would rather he took the best options from the start.

 

[Richard King]

And herein lies my dilemma, at 18 he is like many of his age - no certain direction to follow, no chosen or passionate path to follow. The options are more than bewildering. After going to a recent parent evening, I can't help but get the feeling that they want to get as many 'applications' to Uni rather than guide the child into a targetted course that best suits his qualities. I know they can only work with the subjects they have chosen but the drive seems lacking.

As for me, I am paperless in exams from schooling but now relish and do courses that stretch my mind. I don't want the same path travelled and would rather he took the best options from the start.

I didnt do it traditionally.. I did the BTEC, HTEC, HND, Diploma routes as the learn as your work route

Both my degrees were OU. by far, the most useful qualifications were the non-degree ones. In an ironic way, the most useful qualification I have is a driving licence

My only advice is to instil a ethos of hard work into your child, because form my point of view, people recognise that much more than any paper qualification

 

[~*~ElmoHolz~*~]

And herein lies my dilemma, at 18 he is like many of his age - no certain direction to follow, no chosen or passionate path to follow. The options are more than bewildering. After going to a recent parent evening, I can't help but get the feeling that they want to get as many 'applications' to Uni rather than guide the child into a targetted course that best suits his qualities. I know they can only work with the subjects they have chosen but the drive seems lacking.

This sounds like the 6th form I went to, I went to one of those career advisor meetings, originally I had no intention of going to uni but said I was interested in photography and the best they could do was give me a list of camera clubs in the area...

I found the tutors were only interested in helping those with their UCAS applications and weren't bothered with other students who weren't interested in Uni.

So what happened...with no advice I was 18 with no direction, September came around and where was I... down at my local uni applying via clearing onto a photog degree

From what has been said in this thread proves there's lots of options on which way to go with photography courses, and I only wish I'd been better informed.

Better to just do your own research

 

[Pookeyhead]

this is a tricky one

On the one hand, if I were 18 and wanting a career, then the options are bewildering and a bit of a Hobsons Choice. As a 40 something with a couple of degrees, a OND, HND and a diploma in Optics.. all in science related subjects (including the HND in photography) doing a Degree in an arts subject is quite tempting. Will it get me any jobs - nope, it would be only a case of furthering ones mind

Back to look at the OU again

This is something few take into consideration at all. HE education is seen solely as a means to an end: Getting a job. While invaluable for that these days, there's so much more than that to a degree. It's academically more free, and less prescriptive than a BTEC course. A BTEC course is basically written by Edexcel Pearson and they are all the same. There is a core set of modules that colleges effectively "take off the shelf" and deliver. How well they are delivered can of course vary, but essentially the curriculum remains a constant. A degree however, is written by the college or university, and no two degrees are the same. There are guidelines of course, and these are set by the QAA in a document called the Benchmark Statements, and if anyone is interested, they are readily available for download from the QAA website - you want the Benchmark statements for Art & Design. This gives the writers of degree programmes far more flexibility in the curriculum. So long as the course covers certain core areas that industry demands, we can do as we see fit beyond that. A BTEC course has to be scrutinised to test if no more, or less than the modules and grading criteria that Edexcel set are used.

A degree contains a great deal ore of things like crit sessions and seminars where a wider range of topics are discussed and debated, and this results in a wider education. As Richard says above, it opens one's mind.

At the end of the day, whether a graduate gets on in photography is ultimately down to their talent, knowledge, skill, contacts and portfolio, but also their enthusiasm and passion. All we can do is guide them towards what they need to learn... we can't learn it for them. It's not school, and HE education is not about filling up empty heads with knowledge. They don't get spoon fed.

And herein lies my dilemma, at 18 he is like many of his age - no certain direction to follow, no chosen or passionate path to follow.

Then a degree in photography is not what he wants. You need to be passionate and enthusiastic about it to learn at degree level as it's not all about equipment and practical hands on stuff. As you are expected to take your own direction and research for that direction yourself, not having any real motivation will not make a degree a comfortable environment for him. If you don't know what you want to do, then don't spend three years and £20+K on something until you do.

The options are more than bewildering. After going to a recent parent evening, I can't help but get the feeling that they want to get as many 'applications' to Uni rather than guide the child into a targetted course that best suits his qualities. I know they can only work with the subjects they have chosen but the drive seems lacking.

The feeder institutions are a pain in the arse to be honest. So many students are not prepared for HE study and the fact that they are responsible for their own learning. So many sit there passively waiting for us to TEACH something all the time. That's an FE philosophy... that's not what's expected at university or a HE college. Only those with a true passion for the subject feel the motivation to do this. Those are the ones that succeed. By succeed I'm not necessarily referring to the degree classification (although that's the profile that does succeed at that) but succeed in their chosen career. The same is true for a HND of course... don't forget it;s still HE, and you're still going to have to work at it, and you won't get spoon fed anything.

Don't worry about forcing him to go to college to do anything if he doesn't seem that interested in anything. It will be a waste of time and money. Let him get a job, meet some new people.. grow a bit. There's no mad rush into university. I didn't go until I was 29. It's not a race.

As for me, I am paperless in exams from schooling but now relish and do courses that stretch my mind. I don't want the same path travelled and would rather he took the best options from the start.

The best option is the one that allows him to follow his passion and do something he loves doing. Anything else is chasing a career you don't care about. Like the endless raft of uncaring doctors and lawyers who have clearly chosen a career on how much it will earn them. The result is they're unmotivated, unprofessional, and extremely lack lustre at what they do. After all, if you're determined, and very good at something, You'll be successful at anything you want to do. I wonder how many artists or creatives were persuaded away from their passions in order to "get a proper job" when they were getting "careers advice". I wonder how many are fulfilled in their working lives by being persuaded to do so now as a result.

Photography is a very hard career to get into, as there are no jobs. It's a freelance career as you probably know. Photography is a very popular subject to study, and you have to be certain it's what you want to do with your life. It's unlikely to make you rich, but millions of people do it as a hobby for the love of it without earning a penny, so earning even a penny for doing something you love doing can never be work if that's the case, and isn't being paid for doing your hobby what everyone wants? You never know though do you... I never know if one of the students I'll be working with on Monday will be the next Rankin, earning 10K a shoot. Who knows?

I didnt do it traditionally.. I did the BTEC, HTEC, HND, Diploma routes as the learn as your work route

Both my degrees were OU. by far, the most useful qualifications were the non-degree ones. In an ironic way, the most useful qualification I have is a driving licence

A degree in any subject is more desirable than no degree.. all things being equal. If you have two identically skilled photographers, with equally innovative, and fresh, exciting portfolios, everything else about them is absolutely equal, and the only discerning fact was that one had a first class honours degree in their subject, and the other didn't, which one would you chose? Tough question, but I'd be inclined to be in favour of the graduate as he or she will probably have a wider, more rounded view of things, will have received a broader education and has actually demonstrated that they can stick it out something very difficult for three years out of dedication. They will have already had to demonstrate that they can work professionally too if they've gone onto the right course.

The right course is important though. It's like the guy a couple of pages back ranting about how graduates can't just immediately do what he wants them to do. Well, there are two reasons for this 1) He;s being unrealistic to expect a 3 year course to provide the knowledge a working lifetime has afforded him, and B) He needs to stop employing honours graduates to to do school shoots!

You want to do commercial work? HND. You want to go for something that requires a broader art based background? Honours degree. It really is that simple.


Bloody hell... I've done it again.. I intended a brief reply and written War and Peace! Sorry.

 

[phil8139]

Firstly, he has no interest in photography. The topic discussed here is photo based but the structure of courses and Uni are well written from both sides.

Richard, I instill nothing but hard work into both my children, they will earn their own way in this world and be given little financial help from me.

Holly, the college he is in is a well rated one, but the lack of direction my son has is holding him back and they should be pushing more. He is bright and intelligent but at 18 it's all girls and beer.

David, I welcome your input. Reading what has been put out here has given more insight than any papers and meeting have produced, thanks again to all.

As for what I want him to do..... I would rather give him 20K and let him explore the world, find out for himself who he is and what he wants, then he can build his own future. As for putting it into education, I have never been convinced it's for me and that makes me reluctant to invest. However, my youngest at 14 is convinced he wants to be a teacher, has done for 5/6 years and never swayed. I have some saving to do for that one

 

[POAH]

Art is worthless, is it?

No but you should have to pay to study it

 

[POAH]

...but you take cynicism to a whole new level. That chip on your shoulder must be really heavy. You want a world without art? LOL... Oh how I want to see your work POAH.

That's not what I said - there are a fair few university courses that are run that really shouldn't ( goes for science too) that could be scrapped and the money go to other degrees.

I have no problem with art nor would I wish a world without it.

 

[Pookeyhead]

I have no problem with art nor would I wish a world without it.

You also said:

if they didn't run so many pointless art courses they would have money to teach courses that actually make a difference

Yet you think art courses are pointless. Isn't that a little hypocritical?

 

[POAH]

You also said:



Yet you think art courses are pointless. Isn't that a little hypocritical?

nope because I never said all art courses - I hope you mark essays etc better than you read forums :shrug:

 

[Pookeyhead]

You've made your opinions clear in this thread.

 

[POAH]

You've made your opinions clear in this thread.

and you've read between the lines in pretty much all my posts :thumbsdown:

 

[big soft moose]

Its the same in many walks of life , a degree prepares the graduate to start learning in the reasl world - it does not make them a master of the practical aptitudes .

In my day job i'm a countryside team leader and ive lost count of the number of graduates with countryside management degrees who know more that I ever will about the theoretical side of woodland management, but have no idea how to safely use a chainsaw or fell a tree.

 

[Pookeyhead]

Its the same in many walks of life , a degree prepares the graduate to start learning in the reasl world - it does not make them a master of the practical aptitudes .

In my day job i'm a countryside team leader and ive lost count of the number of graduates with countryside management degrees who know more that I ever will about the theoretical side of woodland management, but have no idea how to safely use a chainsaw or fell a tree.

It's a fair assessment actually. You obviously learn the ins and outs of any trade over a working lifetime, not while you're studying for it. There is after all, only so much you can do in 2 or 3 years.

The problem these days is few photographers can afford to pay assistants a decent fee, and it's very difficult. I would advise giving some time during anyone's time at college for free in order to spend some time in the workplace. In fact, it's a requirement of FdA courses that they do.