EV sales in UK in October surged ahead ! - Despite a fall in Car Sales overall

Clive K said:
I said that it is easier and quicker to find a filling station and top up. Can you put enough for 200 miles worth of charge in your battery in the time that it takes me to fill a quarter of a tank of diesel? Even if there are two cars queuing at the pump I bet I would beat you off the mark.

The location of filling stations are displayed on advertising boards all over the place. No need for apps. And the price of fuel might vary from one station to another, but 20 pence variation on an average of £1.50 a litre isn't like the 10X examples of electricity charges that have been posted on here.

As said by others: EV suits some. But not all. And my circumstances fit the second option.
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No, but you miss the point!!

Typically people fill up ICE and then again when 1/4 or so left. With EV, I top up at home 2/3 nights a week, if I know I am driving to London the next day I will plug in even if I am 2/3 full.

This is my maths using the last year or so:

ICE - fill up twice a month, allow occasionally for a queue and to pay in the station rather than at pump @6 mins a go = 12 mins per month = 144 mins per year.

EV - fill up at home 2/3 times a week, takes 2 seconds so won't bother adding that up. Occasional long trips - 5 fill ups at around 25 mins each = 125 mins per year (but don't forget 3 of these were used to pee/eat etc... on long journeys.

Sure, if I am on 1/4 full, and you are in your ICE, you will be off again before I am 1/2 full. But how long did I spend charging up May - Nov last year... approx 75 top ups at around 2 secs each, so around 2-3 minutes. How long did you spend in that 6 months filling up?
 
munch said:
Are they?

Norway is a very different country to the UK.
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All countries are different to the UK - but we compare ourselves with everything else?

It's colder, which actually means range is hit harder. Also, it's bigger, but the key thing is that they have lots of public charging available. Can certainly learn some lessons from them.

And also, they appear to be overcoming objections around range, home charging, affordability etc
 
cambsno said:
www.bbc.co.uk

Norway on track to be first to go all-electric

Nine in 10 new cars in the country are now battery-powered, and it aims to hit 100% later this year.
www.bbc.co.uk www.bbc.co.uk

Norway showing how its done
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yeah they have been ahead of the curve for decades they saw the pollution curve coming there way and over the last 5 years have ramped up tax on oil burners with big incentives for EV :)
 
Mr Bump said:
yeah they have been ahead of the curve for decades they saw the pollution curve coming there way and over the last 5 years have ramped up tax on oil burners with big incentives for EV :)
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Which is in part why they are different to us. Also as pointed out they have a higher standard of living.
If you have a higher standard of living moving to EV isn't so much of an issue. If you have a large section of the community who can only just afford to run a rather old ICE all increasing taxes do is deprive them of a means of independent transport.
 
munch said:
Which is in part why they are different to us. Also as pointed out they have a higher standard of living.
If you have a higher standard of living moving to EV isn't so much of an issue. If you have a large section of the community who can only just afford to run a rather old ICE all increasing taxes do is deprive them of a means of independent transport.
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Well, they are only 3 places ahead of us - in that Logic Germany should be all EV by now being in 3rd place!
 
The key thing about Norway IIRC is that they make hydroelectricity primarily.
 
cambsno said:
Well, they are only 3 places ahead of us - in that Logic Germany should be all EV by now being in 3rd place!
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Sorry I thought we were comparing the UK with Norway. But do tell me where I am wrong about standards of living and poverty (UK Compared to Norway)
 
munch said:
Sorry I thought we were comparing the UK with Norway. But do tell me where I am wrong about standards of living and poverty (UK Compared to Norway)
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Becuases your saying its because they have a better standard of living - if that was the main factor wouldn't German or Swiss be ahead of Norway as they have an even better standard of living.

And in any case, the standard of living is only 3 places higher so we should be at least closer if its based on that
 
Perhaps also relevant is that roughly;
  • their population is 12 times smaller than the UK
  • their road network length is 4 times smaller than the UK
  • the number of private cars on the road is 12 times smaller than the UK
Norway may have different challenges what with the shape of the country, the cold etc, but search results indicate that approx. 80% of EV owners charge their car at home in both Norway and the UK. However, taking into account the difference in ratio between EV and ICE ownership in the UK and Norway, it would suggest that the overwhelming majority of people in Norway have the ability to charge at home, which is still incredibly significant in my opinion.
 
cambsno said:
No, but you miss the point!!

Typically people fill up ICE and then again when 1/4 or so left. With EV, I top up at home 2/3 nights a week, if I know I am driving to London the next day I will plug in even if I am 2/3 full.

This is my maths using the last year or so:

ICE - fill up twice a month, allow occasionally for a queue and to pay in the station rather than at pump @6 mins a go = 12 mins per month = 144 mins per year.

EV - fill up at home 2/3 times a week, takes 2 seconds so won't bother adding that up. Occasional long trips - 5 fill ups at around 25 mins each = 125 mins per year (but don't forget 3 of these were used to pee/eat etc... on long journeys.

Sure, if I am on 1/4 full, and you are in your ICE, you will be off again before I am 1/2 full. But how long did I spend charging up May - Nov last year... approx 75 top ups at around 2 secs each, so around 2-3 minutes. How long did you spend in that 6 months filling up?
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So you are saying that you can
cambsno said:
No, but you miss the point!!

Typically people fill up ICE and then again when 1/4 or so left. With EV, I top up at home 2/3 nights a week, if I know I am driving to London the next day I will plug in even if I am 2/3 full.

This is my maths using the last year or so:

ICE - fill up twice a month, allow occasionally for a queue and to pay in the station rather than at pump @6 mins a go = 12 mins per month = 144 mins per year.

EV - fill up at home 2/3 times a week, takes 2 seconds so won't bother adding that up. Occasional long trips - 5 fill ups at around 25 mins each = 125 mins per year (but don't forget 3 of these were used to pee/eat etc... on long journeys.

Sure, if I am on 1/4 full, and you are in your ICE, you will be off again before I am 1/2 full. But how long did I spend charging up May - Nov last year... approx 75 top ups at around 2 secs each, so around 2-3 minutes. How long did you spend in that 6 months filling up?
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And are we expected to believe that the EV Evangelists are offered enhanced toilet and other facilities in an exclusive lounge during their enhanced price on-route top ups other than the dirty, filthy filling stations that Mr Bump was talking about?

I have never doubted your personal circumstances being suited to owning an EV. However, the Messiah doesn't seem to realise that on terrace streets or high rise apartment blocks you can't expect to top up cheaply in a couple of seconds (plus the actual charge time that you didn't mention) or that some scumbag might nick the plug and cable, or that their employment doesn't allow them to buy a £40K EV on contract hire terms.
 
Clive K said:
So you are saying that you can


And are we expected to believe that the EV Evangelists are offered enhanced toilet and other facilities in an exclusive lounge during their enhanced price on-route top ups other than the dirty, filthy filling stations that Mr Bump was talking about?

I have never doubted your personal circumstances being suited to owning an EV. However, the Messiah doesn't seem to realise that on terrace streets or high rise apartment blocks you can't expect to top up cheaply in a couple of seconds (plus the actual charge time that you didn't mention) or that some scumbag might nick the plug and cable, or that their employment doesn't allow them to buy a £40K EV on contract hire terms.
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No, am not an evangelist, just not a luddite who is closed to new ideas. If you do 400 miles a day and live in a high rise flat then an EV is not for you. But if you are an average driver, with a car on PCP, and have a driveway, them IMO there is no reason to close your mind.

I prefer to argue cases based on fact not mindless prejudice.
 
cambsno said:
No, am not an evangelist, just not a luddite who is closed to new ideas. If you do 400 miles a day and live in a high rise flat then an EV is not for you. But if you are an average driver, with a car on PCP, and have a driveway, them IMO there is no reason to close your mind.

I prefer to argue cases based on fact not mindless prejudice.
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To be honest the one that comes across as being prejudice is you. Just because people don't share your views about EV's it doesn't make them a luddite.

But please explain how pointing out that EV's have there limitations in this country for a variety of reasons makes somebody a luddite?
 
cambsno said:
No, am not an evangelist, just not a luddite who is closed to new ideas. If you do 400 miles a day and live in a high rise flat then an EV is not for you. But if you are an average driver, with a car on PCP, and have a driveway, them IMO there is no reason to close your mind.

I prefer to argue cases based on fact not mindless prejudice.
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I know that you are not. And as I said weeks ago, I can see why it works for you. But I do not see how hanging around a charging station for 25 minutes is a better experience than spending a few minutes in a filling station as has been eluded to by someone else on here. The ideal situation is for someone who's circumstances are such that they don't need to recharge anywhere than at home, work or other cheap, safe location. And it helps if you have a job that will allow you to afford a new or nearly new car. That sector of the market is very small compared to the layers of second, third, fourth, etc hand car owners.

Where I live I reckon it is less than 5 minutes from pulling up the hand brake to driving off again with 30 or so litres of derv added.
 
munch said:
To be honest the one that comes across as being prejudice is you. Just because people don't share your views about EV's it doesn't make them a luddite.

But please explain how pointing out that EV's have there limitations in this country for a variety of reasons makes somebody a luddite?
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No - I accept valid arguments, like someone living on the 15th floor of an estate, or doing 500 miles a day.... thats fine and government needs to do something about that in order to make EVs good for everyone. It's the arguments about range or having to spend ages charging which is not true etc... See my post below in response to people thinking EV drivers spend 25 mins when they charge or that they are totally different to ICE cars in terms of affordability.
 
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Clive K said:
I know that you are not. And as I said weeks ago, I can see why it works for you. But I do not see how hanging around a charging station for 25 minutes is a better experience than spending a few minutes in a filling station as has been eluded to by someone else on here. The ideal situation is for someone who's circumstances are such that they don't need to recharge anywhere than at home, work or other cheap, safe location. And it helps if you have a job that will allow you to afford a new or nearly new car. That sector of the market is very small compared to the layers of second, third, fourth, etc hand car owners.

Where I live I reckon it is less than 5 minutes from pulling up the hand brake to driving off again with 30 or so litres of derv added.
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You dont get it!!!

In 18 months (bar my trip home from picking it up and one time last year) I have never needed to sit for 25 mins waiting for charge. The long journeys I did I would have stopped for said pee/food break anyway. So it was charging while I was eating. Had I had an ICE car I would have been stationary for the same period (actually maybe longer as I would have then had to drive to a forecourt to fill up).

Most people do 5-8k per year - so not many long trips, and IIRC off another thread people on average do 10 miles a day or something. So all this stuff about filling up is rubbish, I have pointed out that I have barely used public charging and I do more than average miles, so for MOST people range/public charging is NOT an issue despite you making it out to be one. Like I said, even WITH my long trips (which I would have stopped for the same if I was in ICE) I spent less time filling up than you did in the last year but you seem to be obsessed by filling stations!!

Ok, I will concede that EVs are more expensive, but there are plenty of EV cars from 10k or even a bit less, and certainly a very good selection 12-15k. The average price of a used car is 18k - yes that includes EVs and people buying 70k BMWs that were 100k 8 months previous, its not like you need to be in a job paying £100k a year to make it pay. Again, personal example but when I factor in fuel and servicing my Tesla worked out the same price per month as a new Kia Sportage which I had before. Actually a bit less, but initial insurance was a bit more so about the same. EVs are not just for the rich which you seem to be alluding to. If you can afford to look for a new Kia, new Ford, new VW etc then an EV is in that range too. If your budget is 4k, granted, there is no comparison.
 
cambsno said:
No - I accept valid arguments, like someone living on the 15th floor of an estate, or doing 500 miles a day.... thats fine and government needs to do something about that in order to make EVs good for everyone. It's the arguments about range or having to spend ages charging which is not true etc... See my post below in response to people thinking EV drivers spend 25 mins when they charge or that they are totally different to ICE cars in terms of affordability.
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So based on that, where are the luddites and prejudices, that you alluded to earlier?
 
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cambsno said:
You dont get it!!!

In 18 months (bar my trip home from picking it up and one time last year) I have never needed to sit for 25 mins waiting for charge. The long journeys I did I would have stopped for said pee/food break anyway. So it was charging while I was eating. Had I had an ICE car I would have been stationary for the same period (actually maybe longer as I would have then had to drive to a forecourt to fill up).

Most people do 5-8k per year - so not many long trips, and IIRC off another thread people on average do 10 miles a day or something. So all this stuff about filling up is rubbish, I have pointed out that I have barely used public charging and I do more than average miles, so for MOST people range/public charging is NOT an issue despite you making it out to be one. Like I said, even WITH my long trips (which I would have stopped for the same if I was in ICE) I spent less time filling up than you did in the last year but you seem to be obsessed by filling stations!!

Ok, I will concede that EVs are more expensive, but there are plenty of EV cars from 10k or even a bit less, and certainly a very good selection 12-15k. The average price of a used car is 18k - yes that includes EVs and people buying 70k BMWs that were 100k 8 months previous, its not like you need to be in a job paying £100k a year to make it pay. Again, personal example but when I factor in fuel and servicing my Tesla worked out the same price per month as a new Kia Sportage which I had before. Actually a bit less, but initial insurance was a bit more so about the same. EVs are not just for the rich which you seem to be alluding to. If you can afford to look for a new Kia, new Ford, new VW etc then an EV is in that range too. If your budget is 4k, granted, there is no comparison.
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the affordability of EV's is better than most think if they just want a cheap runaround
there are plenty of nissan leafs and kia souls for sale at less than 4 grand and some 23kwh leafs at less than 2 grand so it is possible to put yourself into an EV for not a lot of money
granted the range isn't great but even the 60 mile range of a 23 kwh leaf would be enough for quite a few to get to work and drive local
i keep trying to persuade my daughter to think about one but she's not that interested she still wants to drive ICE with a manual box while she still can
it's a pity she can't get insurance for a day or 2 in my EV but she needs to be 25 before my insurance will consider her
i think she might change her mind about EV's if she drives one for a while
 
munch said:
So based on that, where are the luddites and prejudices, that you alluded to earlier?
Click to expand...
Clive for example, who seems to think that they are unaffordable unless in a very good job (very subjective comment) and that owners will be sat in charging spaces 25mins a time, read what he said, it's pretty clear it's factually wrong
 
cosmicma said:
the affordability of EV's is better than most think if they just want a cheap runaround
there are plenty of nissan leafs and kia souls for sale at less than 4 grand and some 23kwh leafs at less than 2 grand so it is possible to put yourself into an EV for not a lot of money
granted the range isn't great but even the 60 mile range of a 23 kwh leaf would be enough for quite a few to get to work and drive local
i keep trying to persuade my daughter to think about one but she's not that interested she still wants to drive ICE with a manual box while she still can
it's a pity she can't get insurance for a day or 2 in my EV but she needs to be 25 before my insurance will consider her
i think she might change her mind about EV's if she drives one for a while
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I didnt know that they could be that cheap. Great cheap runaround if your a person who only does trips to local town etc.
 
cambsno said:
Clive for example, who seems to think that they are unaffordable unless in a very good job (very subjective comment) and that owners will be sat in charging spaces 25mins a time, read what he said, it's pretty clear it's factually wrong
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What's the EV equivalent to a Ford Focus?

And how do people who can't charge at home charge their car without sitting in charging spaces for 25 minutes?
 
LeeRatters said:
What's the EV equivalent to a Ford Focus?

And how do people who can't charge at home charge their car without sitting in charging spaces for 25 minutes?
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Ford Focus? maybe a Citroen e-C3 at £22,000 new which is £6000 less than a new Focus or the Hyundai Inster at £24k which is an EV from the ground up (as opposed to being a converted ICE car), so a small car with loads of room inside.

Various options on charging, one of which is putting charging points in lamp posts, just like charging at home you plug it in overnight and you're good to go. How often you need to do this depends on the car and your driving habits. Other options, many blocks of flats have parking/garaging areas where charge points could be fitted..
Just because there's no solution to a specific problem now doesn't mean there won't be one tomorrow, the EV world is evolving at an incredibly fast pace.
 
Steep said:
Ford Focus? maybe a Citroen e-C3 at £22,000 new which is £6000 less than a new Focus or the Hyundai Inster at £24k which is an EV from the ground up (as opposed to being a converted ICE car), so a small car with loads of room inside.

Various options on charging, one of which is putting charging points in lamp posts, just like charging at home you plug it in overnight and you're good to go. How often you need to do this depends on the car and your driving habits. Other options, many blocks of flats have parking/garaging areas where charge points could be fitted..
Just because there's no solution to a specific problem now doesn't mean there won't be one tomorrow, the EV world is evolving at an incredibly fast pace.
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£13700 - £18000 used according to Parkers. That's quite a bit more than my previous Focus which cost me £3500 and I've just sold for £1400 - so a £2100 loss over 7.5 years of ownership. The Focus I've just bought was £2500 cash minus the £1400 I sold the silver one for so £1100 for a 31,000 mile car. People on here think an EV is unaffordable, certain people disagree, but they certainly aren't AS affordable are they?

I can't charge at home. I can't charge at work. I can't charge at the gym. And I don't think our supermarket we use have charging points either - I've certainly not noticed them anyway. As we keep mentioning, there are plenty of people in that same situation. well, BOTH situations.

But it's okay, just keep calling us anti-EV :)
 

Steep said:
Various options on charging, one of which is putting charging points in lamp posts, just like charging at home you plug it in overnight and you're good to go. How often you need to do this depends on the car and your driving habits. Other options, many blocks of flats have parking/garaging areas where charge points could be fitted..
Just because there's no solution to a specific problem now doesn't mean there won't be one tomorrow, the EV world is evolving at an incredibly fast pace.
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But for most they are not available now, so are not relevant to what is actually currently happening.

it is a bit like all this move to use public transport. Mainly fine if you live in a big city but out in the rural areas it is very different story.

I say mainly fine, but that is only if you are on a recognised bus/tram or train route.
 
munch said:
But for most they are not available now, so are not relevant to what is actually currently happening.

it is a bit like all this move to use public transport. Mainly fine if you live in a big city but out in the rural areas it is very different story.

I say mainly fine, but that is only if you are on a recognised bus/tram or train route.
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Even in a big city it doesn't always work well. The bus routes often don't seem to go where you want them to go. I can drive to work in about 10 minutes for a 7am start. On public transport I have to leave house at 6:05 to arrive by 6:54 (which is pushing things a bit!) I have to get 2 buses & also do 23 minutes worth of walking :ROFLMAO:

EDIT - to arrive a bit earlier so I am ready to start work at 7am, my option is to leave house at 5:35 to arrive at 6:33 which is still 2 buses and only 18 minutes of walking :)
 
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LeeRatters said:
£13700 - £18000 used according to Parkers. That's quite a bit more than my previous Focus which cost me £3500 and I've just sold for £1400 snip.

But it's okay, just keep calling us anti-EV :)
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You asked about a specific model, you didn't mention 2nd hand.

I didn't call you anything, don't put words in my mouth please.
 
munch said:
But for most they are not available now, so are not relevant to what is actually currently happening.

it is a bit like all this move to use public transport. Mainly fine if you live in a big city but out in the rural areas it is very different story.

I say mainly fine, but that is only if you are on a recognised bus/tram or train route.
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As I said and you quoted, things are changing rapidly.
 
Steep said:
You asked about a specific model, you didn't mention 2nd hand.

I didn't call you anything, don't put words in my mouth please.
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The EV price I quoted from the equivalent model that you suggested was also second hand....??

And, I didn't say YOU called ME anti-EV either ;)

You EV guys (as demonstrated in these threads) usually refer to us ICE drivers as "anti-EV" ;)
 
LeeRatters said:
The EV price I quoted from the equivalent model that you suggested was also second hand....??

And, I didn't say YOU called ME anti-EV either ;)

You EV guys (as demonstrated in these threads) usually refer to us ICE drivers as "anti-EV" ;)
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Both models I quoted are very new and not likely to have any real 2nd hand market as yet. Could you have bought a year old Focus for the price you paid?

/Edit, no you can't, a 5 year old Focus will cost you about 13k which strangely enough is very close to the prices you mentioned for the EVs.
 
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Steep said:
Both models I quoted are very new and not likely to have any real 2nd hand market as yet. Could you have bought a year old Focus for the price you paid?

/Edit, no you can't, a 5 year old Focus will cost you about 13k which strangely enough is very close to the prices you mentioned for the EVs.
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We're on about people's situations. Why would I buy a £13k Focus or a £15k EV Citroën when I can buy a £2500 31,000 mile ICE Focus?

And we're on about the anti-EV labels that 'we' get when we do that? My initial point was and still is, just because people don't own or drive an EV, it doesn't mean they are against them. But that's something that EV drivers and owners can't seem to understand .....
 
I think the discussion here is evolving and hopefully the you called my this/no I didn't stuff is resolved, which is good, as it's actually quite an interesting one. /Admin-Mod


I have two diesel vehicles, and I'm very happy with them, but I know I should replace my diesel Mazda 6 estate with a small EV because I'm only doing about 4k miles in it and mostly it's 5 minutes down the road plus a weekly half-hour each way (25 odd miles each way). The problem is that I really like the current car, it does what I want very well and is fun to drive when I feel like it, and I'd take a big depreciation hit too if I sold it or traded in (6 years old, perfect condition and service history, 50mpg, only 42k miles and original ex-demo cost £26k). Yes I've had my value out of it, but I can get a lot more. In other words there is just no need to change, as it costs me not a lot to own and run. It'll probably last another 20 years quite happily, probably longer than I have left to drive, so why would I take on the cost of a replacement vehicle when I don't need to. My very specific use case doesn't make changing to EV sensible. If I were ten years younger, I almost certainly would do so in a couple of years time, as there are now some nice looking EV's starting to come out from BMW, Audi and others maybe; although I wish they wouldn't focus on boxy snotball cars and SUV's!
 
LeeRatters said:
We're on about people's situations. Why would I buy a £13k Focus or a £15k EV Citroën when I can buy a £2500 31,000 mile ICE Focus?

And we're on about the anti-EV labels that 'we' get when we do that? My initial point was and still is, just because people don't own or drive an EV, it doesn't mean they are against them. But that's something that EV drivers and owners can't seem to understand .....
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That's not the EV or anti EV point I am getting at. If you want a 2.5k focus then no, nothing EV will compare at that price point. But to the average family man, in his 3 bed family house, who changes his car every 3/4 years via PCP, an EV will not work out more on a like for like basis.

Your point is totally valid, wanting to spend 2.5k on a Focus and that in itself is not EV, its the discussion I have had with someone who still thinks EVs are the preserve of the rich and I wast hours charging
 
cambsno said:
All countries are different to the UK - but we compare ourselves with everything else?

It's colder, which actually means range is hit harder. Also, it's bigger, but the key thing is that they have lots of public charging available. Can certainly learn some lessons from them.

And also, they appear to be overcoming objections around range, home charging, affordability etc
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Norway has 1/14 the population of the UK and is a massive country, one third larger than the UK, so is a very bad comparison. 2/3 of Norwegians drive ICE cars.

www.bbc.co.uk

Norway on track to be first to go all-electric

Nine in 10 new cars in the country are now battery-powered, and it aims to hit 100% later this year.
www.bbc.co.uk www.bbc.co.uk
 
Jelster said:
You forgot to add "with really ugly wheels"... :LOL:

What is it with EV's and huge, bulky wheels?
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What is it with people having ultra low profile tyres on RR Sport cars, or 19in wheels on anything? All it leads to is scuffed alloys.
 
yzfmike said:
Might be an attempt to reduce rolling resistance
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Possibly also air resistance.

Tesla model 3 have a really nasty plastic hub cap over their alloys. Many drivers remove them but they are supposed to give a small %age extra range.
 
IMG_0355.jpeg
My car, does around 4K miles per annum, 240hp, 2wd, 1200kg, options for an ev replacement limited, ie, new MG Cyberstar, 400hpish leccy motor, 4wd, 2000kg and around £60k, 10 minute test drive convinced me what it would do, yes it’s quick and has more power but it needs it for the extra weight, handling not quite an oil tanker at sea but nah, I’ll stick to my old Honda bought and paid for on the day I brought it home. PCP! Isn’t that some kind of drug.
 
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cambsno said:
That's not the EV or anti EV point I am getting at. If you want a 2.5k focus then no, nothing EV will compare at that price point. But to the average family man, in his 3 bed family house, who changes his car every 3/4 years via PCP, an EV will not work out more on a like for like basis.

Your point is totally valid, wanting to spend 2.5k on a Focus and that in itself is not EV, its the discussion I have had with someone who still thinks EVs are the preserve of the rich and I wast hours charging
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I would think that a comparison between EV used cars and ICE used cars will be valid when there is a massive increase in the number of used EV cars.
 
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