EV grant to be reduced.

[nilagin]

If you are considering buying a new electric car, you might want to do it quick.
The £3,500 grant on electric cars up to £50k is going to be reduced to £2500 and will only be available on cars upto £35k.
So if you want to save money on that Tesla 3, get a move on as once reduced, Tesla will no longer have a car that qualifies for the grant.

Redirect Notice

www.google.co.uk

 

[broc]

Serves Tesla right for lobbying an increase in fuel duty .....

Elon Musk’s Tesla lobbied UK to raise tax on petrol and diesel

Electric carmaker’s submission to the government said grants for battery powered cars could be revenue-neutral

www.theguardian.com

.

 

[ecoleman]

Urm, No thanks

 

[nilagin]

Serves Tesla right for lobbying an increase in fuel duty .....

Elon Musk’s Tesla lobbied UK to raise tax on petrol and diesel

Electric carmaker’s submission to the government said grants for battery powered cars could be revenue-neutral

www.theguardian.com

.

It has comeback and bit him on the arse. It seems an odd move by him anyway, especially as Tesla earned $428M in 2020 Q2 from selling Carbon Credits to legacy car manufacturers who would otherwise have been heavily fined for not meeting their average CO2 emissions target for their vehicles.

 

[Steep]

Expect EV prices to fall significantly over the next couple of years. UK gov's stated intention to stop sales of ICE cars in 2030 means a big take up of EVs. You can buy a good EV now for 24k? inc subsidy but a lot of people choose to lease as the technology is developing very fast.

 

[simon ess]

I really struggle to see how EVs are going to work going forward.

Charging is just too much of an issue for too many people.

Maybe at some point technology will solve it but I don't see it yet.

 

[Steep]

I really struggle to see how EVs are going to work going forward.

Charging is just too much of an issue for too many people.

Maybe at some point technology will solve it but I don't see it yet.

As it happens.. my job is servicing EV charge points.
Things I didn't know before I started - just how many CPs there actually are, literally thousands. The company I work for has well in excess of 2000 in Scotland alone.
How readily people make the change, once you get past the "range anxiety" and find that yes you can get wherever you're going without worrying about running out of power.
Range for EVs is increasing rapidly, with new models getting 280 miles easily. If you think about it, how many trips of 200 plus miles will you do on a regular basis?
Charging, fast chargers will top you up to 80% (from very low) in less than 30 minutes for most cars and 80% will easily get you there (~100mls or more) for most journeys.
Plug your car in overnight and it will cost an average of £8.50 to fully charge (works out between 17 and 32 miles per pound as opposed to 8-9 miles for petrol.
Even the most expensive price for charging commercially gets you an equivalent of a tank of fuel for half the cost of petrol and it can cost you much less.
How pleasant an electric car is to drive.

E.G. the North Coast 500 has some 15 places with fast chargers and sometimes multiple units on a site (usually a car park) in it's 500 mile length. That's two or three times the number of petrol stations and pssst, they are all free to use!

 

[simon ess]

I live in a terraced house in a small town / large ex mining village.

Let's assume there's a few charging points nearby, although I currently have no idea where they are.
Let's assume about a week's worth of power.
When I fuel up now there is often a queue at the pump.
How long would I have to queue to spend another 30 minutes charging up.

There would have to be at least as many charging points as there are fuel points and the recharge time will have to be reduced considerably.

That's my thinking anyway.

 

[Steep]

Should tell you where / how many cps in your area.

Map of electric charging points for electric cars UK: Zapmap

UK-wide map of electric car charging points allowing EV drivers to find EV charge points and plan electric journeys to the nearest charging point.

www.zap-map.com

As for your other worries, you adapt, you take the chance to top up your charge as it comes, you don't wait until you have to. That way if a cp is busy you can come back another time. Charge for 10 or 15 minutes only, chances are you don't fill your petrol tank to the brim every time you go.
Check your local supermarket, is there a cp at or near it. When we all get out and about again, you'll find cps in parks and recreation areas.
CPs are being installed at a prodigious rate all over the UK, finding somewhere to charge is not a problem.

 

[simon ess]

Thanks for that. I'll look into it a bit more.

 

[Nod]

Home charging is a LOT cheaper than pretty much any public points (the exceptions being the loss leader points at supermarkets which are free, as are some points in [pay to park] car parks.

 

[Steep]

Home charging is a LOT cheaper than pretty much any public points (the exceptions being the loss leader points at supermarkets which are free, as are some points in [pay to park] car parks.

Yep, except where I live, the council have installed chargers all over the Highlands and they are all free to use, at least for the time being. I'm not sure how long they will stay free.

 

[F1.2]

zapmap is a app that list / shows all your local charging points from wherever you are at the time you load the app

 

[taxboy]

I currently think one of the issues is the diverse range of charge suppliers in addition to the number of charging stations. As I understand it you need to register download an app before being able to charge and pay. Could you imagine having to do this for petrol filling stations.

Ideally it needs to be as simple as turn up scan your CC and charge

 

[Steep]

I currently think one of the issues is the diverse range of charge suppliers in addition to the number of charging stations. As I understand it you need to register download an app before being able to charge and pay. Could you imagine having to do this for petrol filling stations.

Ideally it needs to be as simple as turn up scan your CC and charge

It's getting there. You're right there are a lot of different networks but once you get started it's pretty easy to sign up and use whichever app is the right one.
There's a growing use of contactless cards (in place of an app) and most newer chargers have the facility to accept contactless payment although it's not activated yet.
Here in Scotland there's one big network that's Scottish government owned, called Chargeplace Scotland and run by local councils (which is why you'll be charged at different rates in different council areas). It also has links to 'charge your car' in England and a card from either of these operators will work either side of the border.

There is also some resistance from some manufacturers, Tesla don't seem to like their owners using other networks chargers and Tesla drivers often have to phone up the operator to get a charge started manually. They accept this as part of the ownership experience

 

[hashcake]

For those of us who don't have a drive or can't park directly outside the house I can see it being a real pain.
I rarely go into the town centre and doing it just to charge up a car will be also be a pain.

 

[Steep]

For those of us who don't have a drive or can't park directly outside the house I can see it being a real pain.
I rarely go into the town centre and doing it just to charge up a car will be also be a pain.

As I said above, come the time you will adapt, you'll have no choice.
Come 2030 all petrol stations will have begun the transition to EV charging stations anyway. Over time you will see less fuel pumps and more chargers.

 

[Steep]

However the charging points for electric cars are ½ a mile away at the far end of the carpark at its narrowest and most difficult place to access. All the other charge points seem to be in the smaller car parks. The main town centre carparks don’t have them.

This is something I've seen also, it's a sign that whoever was tasked with installing the CPs was not invested in the process and or had never actually been to the site to check the feasibility.
Again, over the next couple of years you will see a huge increase in charging stations, all over the UK.

 

[nilagin]

As I said above, come the time you will adapt, you'll have no choice.
Come 2030 all petrol stations will have begun the transition to EV charging stations anyway. Over time you will see less fuel pumps and more chargers.

New car sales have been on a downward trend for the last 5 years even without Covid. Even if every new car sold from today, it would take 15yrs to replace every car (currently over 31 million) with an ICE. Even though electric car sales are improving, it looks like it will be another 4 years before they make up 50% of new car registrations. Plus new hybrids can still be sold until 2035.
By 2030, electric cars will probably make up a fifth of all cars on the road in the UK, assuming they have replaced ICE cars and not just joined them on the road.

 

[nilagin]

This is something I've seen also, it's a sign that whoever was tasked with installing the CPs was not invested in the process and or had never actually been to the site to check the feasibility.
Again, over the next couple of years you will see a huge increase in charging stations, all over the UK.

Doesn't look like Tesla checked this location out.

 

[tracybradbury]

I have a wheelchair accessible vehicle and they don’t yet make them ( the larger ones) as an electric vehicle?
I will wait with interest to see if /when they finally cater for these.

 

[Marc]

I have a wheelchair accessible vehicle and they don’t yet make them ( the larger ones) as an electric vehicle?
I will wait with interest to see if /when they finally cater for these.

Many WAVs are based on van chassis so there shouldn't be any issues with developing EV WAVs within the next 9 years. I believe they're on a 5 year lease on the Motability scheme so there is breathing room on top of that.

 

[wyx087]

The £3,500 grant on electric cars up to £50k is going to be reduced to £2500 and will only be available on cars upto £35k.
So if you want to save money on that Tesla 3, get a move on

The grant has already been reduced at time of starting this thread.

Official gov website has a list of eligible cars

Electric and hybrid vehicles eligible for a plug-in grant

Check which new hybrid and electric vehicles (EV), including cars, vans, trucks and motorbikes, are eligible for a government plug-in grant.

www.gov.uk

Serves Tesla right for lobbying an increase in fuel duty .....

Where else are the HUGE fossil fuel subsidies coming from?

PM announces the UK will end support for fossil fuel sector overseas

The Prime Minister will announce an end to the UK Government's direct support for the fossil fuel energy sector overseas, as he opens the Climate Ambition Summit.

www.gov.uk

UK has biggest fossil fuel subsidies in the EU, finds commission

Subsidies for coal, oil and gas are not falling despite EU pledges to tackle climate change

www.theguardian.com

The EV grant and other renewable subsidies to drive their net-zero goal are a droplet in the huge lake of well established fossil fuel industry subsidies.

This is a well referenced video (ignore the clickbait title) regarding the global fossil fuel subsidies:

View: https://youtu.be/-ZBzkOwohMs

Tesla earned $428M in 2020 Q2 from selling Carbon Credits to legacy car manufacturers who would otherwise have been heavily fined for not meeting their average CO2 emissions target for their vehicles.

The money doesn't come from government, it's a form of penalty from late followers of the car industry. We are in the transitional period, governments are responsible for pushing 10+ years long transition when short term profits for companies doesn't automatically generate enough incentive for an industry to change for the better.

Carbon credits, it's about time companies are held responsible for what they are doing/enabling. Far too long, companies and nations have polluted to gain a competitive edge unfairly.

 

[wyx087]

In related news, those old battered rapid chargers everyone see at motorway service stations are to be replaced and expanded by a brilliant new company with the right idea: grid connected batteries

news

news

www.current-news.co.uk

The Electric Highway network were originally funded by Nissan/Renault back in 2014, similar to how Tesla are funding their own charger networks. But after years in service and lack of external capex investment for upgrades, the network has become a joke.

Gridserve, the company who are replacing the chargers, aims to replicate their Braintree charging hub across all existing EH locations at motorway services. So during low demand periods, they can use their batteries to help smooth out the grid; during high demand periods, the battery will ensure cars can all charge at maximum speed without very expensive grid capacity upgrades. Their charging fees at Braintree are a lot cheaper than other companies who would only install a few rapid chargers. (eg. Ionity)

Here are the first locations to be upgraded:

Gridserve updates

As well as the threads discussing the announcement that Gridserve will be replacing all of the legacy Ecotricity/Electric Highway chargers at motorway service areas by Summer/Autumn 2021 (and also gradually installing additional HPC hubs over time) in general, I thought it might be useful to...

www.speakev.com

It's great to see 6 is the starting number and a few 10 charger installs. Whereas Ionity sites opened in 2020 are mostly just 4's.
Although it's interesting to see there are always more Tesla chargers than generic chargers for all cars........

 

[whiteflyer]

Very quick search comes up with
UK petrol stations 8380
UK EV Charge stations 13,000 with around 38000 connections

7,000 charge point connectors added in 2020 alone. the biggest increase was in the new 150-350kW ultra-rapid chargers

 

[taxboy]

Very quick search comes up with
UK petrol stations 8380
UK EV Charge stations 13,000 with around 38000 connections

7,000 charge point connectors added in 2020 alone. the biggest increase was in the new 150-350kW ultra-rapid chargers

It's moving in the right direction but assuming each petrol station only has 6 pumps that's around 50,000 "connections" and a petrol connection takes about 5 minutes whereas an electric charge must be at least 30 min ?

 

[Steep]

It's moving in the right direction but assuming each petrol station only has 6 pumps that's around 50,000 "connections" and a petrol connection takes about 5 minutes whereas an electric charge must be at least 30 min ?

30 minutes to a high state of charge, you can go for less if you don't need. How many times do you fill your tank all the way up when you buy petrol? As I said before, you adapt, it's not a difficult move if you think ahead. Thinking ahead is the key in fact, you just need to do it a bit more than you do with a petrol car.

 

[Steep]

A quick google says there's about 30 million petrol/diesel cars in the UK as of 2019 as opposed to 210 thousand pure electric.

That's one CP for every 5.5 electric cars and one fuel pump per every 600 ice cars, divide it by three if you want to even out the number of refuel visits compared to charges, 1 pump per 200 cars.

Also CPs are much much easier to install just about anywhere. All you need is a power supply and parking space which is why car parks are ideal places to have them.

 

[taxboy]

30 minutes to a high state of charge, you can go for less if you don't need. How many times do you fill your tank all the way up when you buy petrol? As I said before, you adapt, it's not a difficult move if you think ahead. Thinking ahead is the key in fact, you just need to do it a bit more than you do with a petrol car.

I agree it will require more thinking ahead and a change of mindset. Currently I always fill the tank to the top when I visit the filling station. I can't see the logic in doing anything else to avoid wasting time by repeat visits. I'm presuming all charging points will be able,to charge all makes of ehicle,otherwise that could cause some issues

 

[wyx087]

Rather than thinking about recharging the car or needing to waste time to use a recharge/refill station. It becomes automatic like plugging in the smart phone at night.

Everyday starts with 80% of range for us, that's around 50 real world miles in a 6.5yo first generation EV. Double that of most brand new PHEV making it a great local runabout covering vast majority purpose for a car.

(disclaimer, that only works with a driveway)

 

[Steep]

I agree it will require more thinking ahead and a change of mindset. Currently I always fill the tank to the top when I visit the filling station. I can't see the logic in doing anything else to avoid wasting time by repeat visits. I'm presuming all charging points will be able,to charge all makes of ehicle,otherwise that could cause some issues

My thinking (being a tight Scot) is that filling the tank means you're carrying all that extra weight and so using more fuel so I rarely ever fill past half way.

 

[Steep]

I'm presuming all charging points will be able,to charge all makes of ehicle,otherwise that could cause some issues

Yes they can, there are currently 3 connection types in use. A/C which all cars use and is part of the connector design in both the other types.
- Chademo (Charge De Move), older mainly Japanese but still in use in new vehicles and CCS (Combined Charging System) which is the new 'standard'
A/C is slower, typically 22.5kw max but often only 7.5kw, Every car can use it but it will take a long time (all home chargers are A.C)
Chademo and CCS have different connectors so it's impossible to use the wrong one and they will charge much faster 50kw and upwards.
Chademo will eventually fall out of use I think and hope. One thing that is definitely needed is a standard connector type.

 

[taxboy]

Clearly still some teething problems https://www.theguardian.com/money/2020/nov/28/electric-cars-porsche-charging-network

 

[wyx087]

Clearly still some teething problems https://www.theguardian.com/money/2020/nov/28/electric-cars-porsche-charging-network

I think this post sums up my view nicely

Successful enough to earn enough to buy a Taycan, but couldn’t be arsed to do 15 minutes research on charging points.

Nor spend £500 on a home charger. Living in Bournemouth.

EV is still at early-adopter stage. Infrastructure for the masses is *STILL* not there yet, so planning is required for all the EV's from companies that doesn't invest in rapid charging network.


TBH, the grant is better spent on infrastructure. Mandate all motorway services to have at least 16 rapid chargers and minimal growth rate in line with public adoption.

 

[whiteflyer]

On my current usage I'd need to charge a Tesla every 2 to 3 months LOL (not done 300 mile this year so far, but that should change now I hope )

 

[Steep]

Mandate all motorway services to have at least 16 rapid chargers and minimal growth rate in line with public adoption.

That will come soon enough, charge point growth rate far exceeds car uptake at the moment. That's partly down to the known issues over range and it being new fangled but also partly down to cars being in short supply. I think the wait for an electric car is generally longer than an ICE equivalent, though as with ICE cars if you are not focused on one specific model/car you can find 'a' car quite quickly.

 

[wyx087]

It's not only the number of charger though. We can install 10 times more unreliable chargers at every street corner, but finding usable and available one means driving around all over the place, not knowing if the next one can be used, wasting time, It's the number of chargers AT each location that matters more.

Ecotricity Electric Highway for all cars at motorway services are known to be unreliable and there's usually only 2 chargers. While Tesla across the car park has 12 chargers for just 1 brand of cars. The charger for everyone should always exceed the number of chargers for a single brand.

It's like petrol stations, which one would any sensible person use to plan a route:
A - unmanned single pump petrol station
B - 8 pump forecourt with manned kiosk

 

[Steep]

It's not only the number of charger though. We can install 10 times more unreliable chargers at every street corner, but finding usable and available one means driving around all over the place, not knowing if the next one can be used, wasting time, It's the number of chargers AT each location that matters more.

Ecotricity Electric Highway for all cars at motorway services are known to be unreliable and there's usually only 2 chargers.

Nobody installs unreliable chargers, though a company might be crap at maintaining their estate. If it's new and it doesn't work it's the network operator not the cp in 99.9% of cases.

Experience tells me that by far most of the issues with CPs are user created ( not knowing how the process works, not reading the instructions, not following the the instructions, pulling the cable out of chargers because they are too lazy to park up properly, throwing the connector on the ground rather than spend a few seconds fitting it back into the port on the cp ). I don't blame users for all of this, when you go to buy an electric car you're lucky if the salesman tells you where the steering wheel is before showing you off the property.
I saw a KIA Soul the other week with a huge ding in the driver's door, the owner said he did it the second time he drove the car. Nobody had told him about how fast the take off is in an ev and he tried to turn out of his driveway as he always had but at much higher speed.

Another issue that causes grief is firmware, every time a new car is released every charger in the country has to be updated to be able to speak to it and that doesn't always go well. It comes back to standardisation, manufacturers absolutely do not want to standardise anything as it means less profit.
You mentioned Tesla, their network is great but sadly lacking in my part of the world. Tesla don't like their drivers using other networks and their cars don't handshake very well with them. This means a lot of Tesla owners having to phone up the cp network help line.

 

[wyx087]

Dealers are totally useless with EV's.
I've had to teach 2 different new EV owners over the years, both of them used the Type 2 AC to charge at 7kW from a rapid charger. Reason? Didn't know about the additional cover to take off for CCS rapid charging. Said no one told them!

Many dealers would rather sell you an ICE car:

Ford Dealership Mustang Mach E test shows they are not ready, full of Tesla and EV misinformation

A test of 15 Ford dealerships about their new Mustang Mach E electric car shows that they are not ready...

electrek.co

every time a new car is released every charger in the country has to be updated to be able to speak to it and that doesn't always go well. It comes back to standardisation, manufacturers absolutely do not want to standardise anything as it means less profit.

Another example of greed getting in the way of progress......

Funny how when grant threshold is slashed, the car also magically cost less:

BMW i3 price slashed to qualify for electric car grant | Autocar

UK prices for city car have been cut so that customers can benefit from government’s EV discount

www.autocar.co.uk

 

[LCPete]

I’ve said this before on here electric vehicles may suit some people but I just can’t see us getting one
A lot of my trips in the summer are to nature reserves and similar out of the way places and obviously it’s not practical to have chargers at every roadside lay-by