Electric-car charging costs soar

[Pound Coin]

While I agree with you entirely, there's little point in arguing with the Thunbergistas.

They'd much rather superglue themselves to your driveway than look at the facts objectively and figure out what compromises will cause the least pain for the fewest people.

Of course this only really works when coming from the position that "the fewest people" are people like rich westerners.

 

[Deleted sulking member 63079]

While I agree with you entirely, there's little point in arguing with the Thunbergistas.

They'd much rather superglue themselves to your driveway than look at the facts objectively and figure out what compromises will cause the least pain for the fewest people.

Scientists know a little bit more than conspiracy nuts on YouTube you realise?

There are zero "facts" that dispel the impact people are having on the rates of climate change.

 

[Cobra]

, a bike has to have an engine

And a very tuneful exhaust note, not sound like a wet fart

 

[AndrewFlannigan]

Of course this only really works when coming from the position that "the fewest people" are people like rich westerners.

No.

The phrase can only be interpreted one way: assess how many people are harmed by each course of action and choose the one causing the least harm.

 

[Willid1]

Look what happens when it gets dark!

 

[Pound Coin]

No.

The phrase can only be interpreted one way: assess how many people are harmed by each course of action and choose the one causing the least harm.

It still only works when you look at the effect on rich westerners. If you don’t, then the west has to take quite a significant drop in living standards, if our lifestyles are not to harm the rest of the world.

 

[Steep]

Slightly cheaper ! Oh goody, so It’s still better to pay £50,000 for a new EV than 25,00 for a petrol/diesel is it ?

£50k is a very high price for for an electric car. I suspect you were inflating the figure to try to support your pov.

The ev I drive cost just over 24k.
Public charging is still free in much of Scotland, where it isn't free the average cost pkwh is 28p. (~7p per mile)

The overall cost of driving an ev is even less when you factor in servicing costs, tax etc. and over the life of the car ownership still works out cheaper than ICE.

 

[LCPete]

And a very tuneful exhaust note, not sound like a wet fart

yep definitely my LC has got nice loud Allspeed pipes

 

[wyx087]

Look what happens when it gets dark!

When it isn't windy.
Yes, solar disappears, but wind usually picks up in the night time whilst demand is lower (22.7 GW vs 31.5 GW daytime by Mr Bump)

This is why we need more nuclear as base load and more solar + wind. Using fast reactive fossil fuel plants to match supply to demand is expensive and no longer works as we know from current 1-price-fits-all model. Demand must be made to match variable renewable supply, eg. using smart meter to incentivise reduce using electricity at peak times, incentivise install of home battery or EV vehicle-2-home.

I would have a counter argument that the fact you don't need a 300 or 400 mile range 99% of the time means you're carrying around a few hundred kilos of battery you don't need almost all the time Like I've said, my in laws are an EV only family (Tesla Model 3, Nissan Leaf and some sort of small DS SUV). They've been that way for many, many years so I do have plenty of exposure to them, I'm not coming at it from a position of never having experienced EVs.

I totally agree most people don't need 300+ miles EV. Rated 250 miles or 200 in the real world is plentiful for 2-3 hours drive between rest-stops. Carrying bigger and bigger battery for occasional long trip or to please old ICE refuel style thinking is bonkers. As I've previously said, efficiency is king. Cars like Ford Mach-E, E-tron, iPace or Taycan are bad examples of EV, very bad efficiency and has to compensate with giant batteries.

When you said having to drive with lorries to make it home, I bet that is with early Nissan Leaf. Newer EV like Model 3 or DS wouldn't need to do that.

We're fixated on keeping things exactly as they are now, which is both arbitrary and impossible.

Then embrace EV's

Sorry, I jest

 

[LCPete]

£50k is a very high price for for an electric car. I suspect you were inflating the figure to try to support your pov.

The ev I drive cost just over 24k.
Public charging is still free in much of Scotland, where it isn't free the average cost pkwh is 28p. (~7p per mile)

The overall cost of driving an ev is even less when you factor in servicing costs, tax etc. and over the life of the car ownership still works out cheaper than ICE.

it depends I guess on the persons budget we had about 12K that we could afford including trade in for a new car, we was able to get a preregisterd Yaris for 12 K with zero miles a hybrid version would have been way over our budget let alone an electric car

 

[AndrewFlannigan]

It still only works when you look at the effect on rich westerners.

You're seem to suggest that the fix is to level down, which is not going to happen. So many "rich westerners" are struggling to feed themselves and their children that we're almost a third world country already.

Clearly, levelling up (in reality rather than the fantasies of the last four governments) is the plan we need to pursue. How that needs to be done will vary dramatically in different places.

 

[Pound Coin]

You're seem to suggest that the fix is to level down, which is not going to happen. So many "rich westerners" are struggling to feed themselves and their children that we're almost a third world country already.

Clearly, levelling up (in reality rather than the fantasies of the last four governments) is the plan we need to pursue. How that needs to be done will vary dramatically in different places.

It may not happen by design. But, unless we can square our ways of life with the limits of the the Earth, we will level down. Some comfortable people like confirmation bias to believe they can retain their comfort.

However, the words of Mark Twain come to mind here.

 

[AndrewFlannigan]

However, the words of Mark Twain come to mind here.

So many words to choose from. You'll have to give me a clue...

 

[Steep]

I totally agree most people don't need 300+ miles EV. Rated 250 miles or 200 in the real world is plentiful for 2-3 hours drive between rest-stops. Carrying bigger and bigger battery for occasional long trip or to please old ICE refuel style thinking is bonkers. As I've previously said, efficiency is king. Cars like Ford Mach-E, E-tron, iPace or Taycan are bad examples of EV, very bad efficiency and has to compensate with giant batteries.

When you said having to drive with lorries to make it home, I bet that is with early Nissan Leaf. Newer EV like Model 3 or DS wouldn't need to do that.


Then embrace EV's

Sorry, I jest

For info... My car's stated range (wltp) is 214 miles, I drive 800-1000 miles a week and have never yet run out of juice. Driving electric is so much easier and only takes a small change in attitude/thinking over the old ICE car. Not seen it mentioned here but the average daily drive in the UK for a private car is just 9 miles. You could do that in my car for 3 weeks without ever needing to charge it and when the time comes, just plug it in to your wall box over night or a public charger for an hour or so.

 

[Mr Bump]

You're seem to suggest that the fix is to level down, which is not going to happen. So many "rich westerners" are struggling to feed themselves and their children that we're almost a third world country already.

haha that made me laugh the UK a third world country.
we might like to think that we just like to keep the poor even poorer and the rich richer.

none of my friends are struggling but they might have to cut down on the prosecco bill
we have the worst social divisions of europe

 

[Pound Coin]

Not seen it mentioned here but the average daily drive in the UK for a private car is just 9 miles.

And if that is the average, then most journeys are much shorter. Would be ideal for walking or cycling.

(cue the posts saying “I only have one leg and half a brain, so that’s no good at all!!!”)

 

[DumfriesDik]

Another vote for an electric car here.

I have one on order (11 mths and counting) and can not wait. It will fit in to our lifestyle I am sure, plus the idea of never going to a petrol station again to fill the car up again is just wonderful. It'll be there on the drive, pre-heated, no ice or snow and 'full' every morning, I am truly excited. And as for the tech, it is a whole new level.

I have to confess that the current cost of 100% green electric does concern me, my fixed rate expires end of January and I have no doubt the cost will probably double.

 

[robj20]

Electric cars of today will be like todays diesels.

Government telling us how great they are today and taxing them off the roads tomorrow.

No chance in hell I'd buy one.

I get 700 miles out of a tank of diesel. For how long and what will it cost to charge an EV to get that mileage?

Reminds me of the boss at work when he got his new Tesla and I suggested a race and he just laughed. Soon shut up when I suggested racing to the top of Scotland and back.
I also don't trust the government when they're telling us what car to buy. For me electric just isn't anywhere near good enough. Heard so many stories of people driving around looking for a working charging point, great if you can 100% rely on home charging.

 

[DumfriesDik]

Soon shut up when I suggested racing to the top of Scotland and back.

You didn't fancy the 1/4 mile then?!!

I don't quite get the obsession with the range. 700 miles @ 50mph is 14 hours!! Who does that regularly?? Highway code suggests 15 min break every two hour anyway.

Bjorn Nyland has done many 1000km (620 miles) challenges and he has done it in many cars in under 11 hours and the Kia EV6 AWD was under 10 hours. Good enough for most I'd have thought, although I do appreciate we all have different needs and desires.

 

[Steep]

Reminds me of the boss at work when he got his new Tesla and I suggested a race and he just laughed. Soon shut up when I suggested racing to the top of Scotland and back.

I don't understand why you were so smug about thinking you'd beat him in a long distance race, so what? If you're determined to find it there's always going to be a way that one car can beat another. The old TG race between a van and a lambo is an example of possible but totally pointless comparison.

He could have suggested you see who can get from 60 to 100mph fastest or who can park in the tightest space. Or maybe he just didn't feel the need to measure his tadger against yours?

 

[robj20]

I don't understand why you were so smug about thinking you'd beat him in a long distance race, so what? If you're determined to find it there's always going to be a way that one car can beat another. The old TG race between a van and a lambo is an example of possible but totally pointless comparison.

He could have suggested you see who can get from 60 to 100mph fastest or who can park in the tightest space. Or maybe he just didn't feel the need to measure his tadger against yours?

Completely missed the point.
I regularly drive long distance, I regularly can't park anywhere near my house, no charging available near work either, so even just driving to work is need long range as I might not be able to charge every day or even every week, 60 miles a day soon adds up.
So how would that work. Considering the boss was acting like many with EVs do and indeed vegans, Ie I'm destroying the planet blah blah. I thought I'd make the point to him that his car isn't the be all and end all.

EVs are not a solution, certainly not at present with the infrastructure we have. I'd happily have a plug in hybrid but not if it costs substantially more than a diesel or petrol.

 

[JonathanRyan]

Only skimmed this thread because right now I am 400 miles from home at a cottage in the middle of nowhere.

The Tesla is outside, fully charged from my host's power for which I'm paying her the scandalous fee of 8p per mile. That's fair because I could pop down to the nearest village and charge faster for the same price but overnight works fine and in the morning I can drive 223 miles.

To get here I had to stop 3 times (twice to charge, one for dinner with a friend where I chose to charge). Charges took about the same time as drinking coffee and cost a lot because I used super chargers which cost nearly as much as petrol.

Back home, it's 2.5p a mile or "free" from the solar if it's sunny. Which means at point of use it's pretty green. It's a second hand car which to some extent mitigates the environmental cost of making it.

Lithium may not be the future but it works ok for my present.

 

[robj20]

Only skimmed this thread because right now I am 400 miles from home at a cottage in the middle of nowhere.

The Tesla is outside, fully charged from my host's power for which I'm paying her the scandalous fee of 8p per mile. That's fair because I could pop down to the nearest village and charge faster for the same price but overnight works fine and in the morning I can drive 223 miles.

To get here I had to stop 3 times (twice to charge, one for dinner with a friend where I chose to charge). Charges took about the same time as drinking coffee and cost a lot because I used super chargers which cost nearly as much as petrol.

Back home, it's 2.5p a mile or "free" from the solar if it's sunny. Which means at point of use it's pretty green. It's a second hand car which to some extent mitigates the environmental cost of making it.

Lithium may not be the future but it works ok for my present.

They certainly sound ideal if they fit in with the intended usage. It'll be great when charges are all generic and all work with just a bank card, like pay at the pump. I want to be able to plug in and tap my bank card and be done.
Each time I buy a car I'll be considering all options.
I think the wife's car will be most suitable for full EV lots of short trips and is able to park on the drive.

 

[Steep]

Completely missed the point.
I regularly drive long distance, I regularly can't park anywhere near my house, no charging available near work either, so even just driving to work is need long range as I might not be able to charge every day or even every week, 60 miles a day soon adds up.
So how would that work. Considering the boss was acting like many with EVs do and indeed vegans, Ie I'm destroying the planet blah blah. I thought I'd make the point to him that his car isn't the be all and end all.

EVs are not a solution, certainly not at present with the infrastructure we have. I'd happily have a plug in hybrid but not if it costs substantially more than a diesel or petrol.

You should have made your point more clearly & without the smugness.
I drive 150-200 miles a day in an EV.
Your choice what you buy and when, EV prices are falling, infrastructure is improving, range is increasing as battery tech is improving. By 2030 when ICE vehicles will no longer be sold you will not think twice about buying electric.

 

[robj20]

You should have made your point more clearly & without the smugness.
I drive 150-200 miles a day in an EV.
Your choice what you buy and when, EV prices are falling, infrastructure is improving, range is increasing as battery tech is improving. By 2030 when ICE vehicles will no longer be sold you will not think twice about buying electric.

I will, I'll buy hybrid.
But like you say EVs and the infrastructure are improving all the time, so who knows.

 

[Steep]

Lithium may not be the future but it works ok for my present.

Lithium is not the bogeyman some people say it is. A very small amount (in comparison to the total) is mined in a not very nice way but it is very small. Lithium mining will end soon enough as filtration becomes easier and cost effective. Lithium is one of the most abundant metals in the world, 180 billion tonnes of the stuff is floating around in the oceans, enough to build batteries for cars for 10,000 years.

 

[Nod]

 

[wyx087]

It'll be great when charges are all generic and all work with just a bank card, like pay at the pump. I want to be able to plug in and tap my bank card and be done.

That’s exactly what I did about an hour ago:



Infrastructure is always improving, and it's mostly very optional when you can charge at home.

I think the wife's car will be most suitable for full EV lots of short trips and is able to park on the drive.

regularly drive long distance, I regularly can't park anywhere near my house

Have you considered moving the cars around every so often?

My driveway parks 2 cars one after another. So we regularly move cars around for the first car to leave in the morning. It's no big ask.

 

[Nod]

We have only charged away from home at the local Sainsbury's and a car park where the charge is free (pay to park at the car park and just plug in [if the Teslas haven't got there first!] for free). Home charging is so much cheaper (other than at free outlets!).

 

[robj20]

That’s exactly what I did about an hour ago:
View attachment 368360


Infrastructure is always improving, and it's mostly very optional when you can charge at home.



Have you considered moving the cars around every so often?

My driveway parks 2 cars one after another. So we regularly move cars around for the first car to leave in the morning. It's no big ask.

Only the small car fits on the drive.

 

[JonathanRyan]

They certainly sound ideal if they fit in with the intended usage. It'll be great when charges are all generic and all work with just a bank card, like pay at the pump. I want to be able to plug in and tap my bank card and be done.

Yep, that's pretty much how they can work. Gridserve yesterday I literally pulled up, plugged in and tapped my credit card. Tap again to stop. Tesla Superchargers are exactly the same but without the tap (Drive up, plug in, unplug, drive off.) Lots of others work via the Bonnet App which discounts the pump price. The tank's quite low ATM and Octopus are still messing about with my charger so the fastest way to fill up is drive 4 miles to the Ionity charger and use a Bonnet 50% off voucher they sent me which is cheaper than day time electric at home.

BTW I'm back home now. Over the week I drove nearly 1,000 miles, never queued for a charger, never sat at one for more than 20 mins and never found one that needed anything more complicated than a credit card. I haven't added up the total cost yet but even using the most expensive chargers for the long bits I know the total cost will be significantly less than my petrol car.

If you have a drive, then I think EVs have just about come of age. But if you can't do at least half of your charging at home or frequently drive > 300 miles in a day then I think it will be a while.

 

[DumfriesDik]

Tesla Superchargers are exactly the same but without the tap (Drive up, plug in, unplug, drive off.)

I think other manufacturers are working on this as well now. It will slowly be the new norm.

 

[JonathanRyan]

I think other manufacturers are working on this as well now. It will slowly be the new norm.

I think that what's happening is various firms are trying to dominate the charging space. There are all sorts of charging networks and then the second tier of firms looking to own the payment side of it. Bonnet are behaving exactly like they are owned by venture capitalists and are trying to push other networks out. They send codes for big discounts / free fills and when Osprey announced they were moving to £1 a kwh, Bonnet sell the exact same electricity from the exact same pumps for 40 - 50p.

There's so much tech in a charging socket that I can't imagine there isn't a unique car identifier. The first firm to tap into this for the wider network may just win the game.

 

[Topsy]

As I’ve said before though I probably shouldn’t comment on these threads as I ride a old Yamaha two stroke bike
But it’s 38 years old still running and all parts needed to keep it going are still available
May be forced in the end to drive an electric car but no way I’m getting an electric motorbike, a bike has to have an engine

 

[tarric]

But if you can't do at least half of your charging at home or frequently drive > 300 miles in a day then I think it will be a while.

And this is the major problem in the UK, I don't know about other people's reasons for not using EV's but it is a major factor in my decision to stick with ICE.

 

[Cobra]

I don't know about other people's reasons for not using EV's

I never spend a great deal of money on cars, and I'll be long gone before they are in my price range.

 

[tijuana taxi]

I never spend a great deal of money on cars, and I'll be long gone before they are in my price range.

Only our current car that has a CD player, previous ones were still on cassettes.
Next vehicle will likely be a micro camper and they don't come with milk float spec as yet.

 

[wyx087]

Had a free Bonnet voucher a few months ago, unfortunately only got 14 kWh off it. Now, I'd be able to get at least 70 kWh off it

Meanwhile, this person combined free charging from Bonnet and Vehicle-to-load capability of the car to get a week's worth of free electricity:

Thanks Bonnet That Powers The House for a week!!..

www.speakev.com

Looking at used Tesla Model 3 prices, I don't think owning a Tesla will be a costly experience thanks to high residual values and ever higher demand for used EV's. For example, my Nissan Leaf was just under £9000 from main dealer back in 2017. Now same asking price for a slightly older car at an indie dealer: https://www.speakev.com/threads/for...-acenta-24kwh-3-3kw-charger-57k-miles.172501/

 

[JonathanRyan]

they don't come with milk float spec as yet.

Milk float. Lol.

 

[tijuana taxi]

Milk float. Lol.

The original rechargeable electric vehicle, good range with excellent load carrying ability.
Years ahead of its time, who needs a tesla when you could have a pinta