Donna Nook - 21st/22nd November

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OK, so as it seems we are all pretty much in agreement about education being VERY important in this instance [and when photographing wildlife generally], would it be an idea for those of you with that knowledge to get your heads together and start some kind of guide for members? As Pete and Bobby have pointed out, it has to start somewhere and this is a big forum that has a lot of people, not just members, viewing.
So we might not start a revolution, but you never know and for every person here that learns how to be a bit more aware of how to treat the environment they find themselves in [in respect of the animals that inhabit it and they want to photograph] sure thats one less person causing a problem and one more person that can pass that information on to other people.
 
if I came up to you and tried to give you a kiss, you would not like it .........!

Don't be too sure why do you think we call him Mr gRubby
no matter what his user name say's

Threads like this only incense right thinking people.
As does 2 new members that seem to have joined purely to wind up the others,
playing footsie with each other.............At the time of typing albeit a little slow
Bobbyblue 16 posts 14 of which relates to "lets wind up the Donna nook threads a little
2 where should I go
plxpwm
14 posts 12 of which lets wind-up the Donna nook threads
2 I'm new here where should I go
Now this smells a little troll like to me but we shall see
the mods have quite a keen nose for those middle earth creatures

If you stress a seal or any other animal for that matter
its gonna p'ss off and you won't get the shot you wanted anyway

There was a very large " organised group at the far end of the beach, that
is true, I saw them in the distance
whether or not they got their shots who knows :shrug:
 
I will, with or without Peter (regardless of coincidental posts, lottery wins do happen!) try my very best to get restricted access to the beach. If you would like to help, anyone for that matter, in an attempt to improve the rights, welfare and conditions for these animals then please PM me otherwise please do something else.

RegardsPS what is your views on very large grps, such as the one you mention being able to get on the beach in such a manor?
 
A quick search on photographers having an effect on the seals only came up with this...

http://www.wild-wonders.com/blog/?p=1921

I think the problems is that everyone thinks that it is better to get as close as possible to get a good picture.

I also did a search on flickr Didn't realise how popular it is and how close people actually get!
 
OK, so as it seems we are all pretty much in agreement about education being VERY important in this instance [and when photographing wildlife generally], would it be an idea for those of you with that knowledge to get your heads together and start some kind of guide for members? As Pete and Bobby have pointed out, it has to start somewhere and this is a big forum that has a lot of people, not just members, viewing.
So we might not start a revolution, but you never know and for every person here that learns how to be a bit more aware of how to treat the environment they find themselves in [in respect of the animals that inhabit it and they want to photograph] sure thats one less person causing a problem and one more person that can pass that information on to other people.

Would be happy to. I must eat now ***, could someone please refer me to a guide about up loading photos.:bang:

Good work Liam!
 
Interestingly, I've now posted twice about education and neither of the main protaganists have responded - still talking about banning access.

I also have seen posts slamming people for saying that they weren't causing problems and yet both the main contributors to this thread are sure they weren't. Almost sounds a bit like judge and jury to me.

And I believe one of the protestors was so incensed with what he saw, he went back the next day to add to the numbers - am I reading that correctly?
 
Interestingly, I've now posted twice about education and neither of the main protaganists have responded - still talking about banning access.

I also have seen posts slamming people for saying that they weren't causing problems and yet both the main contributors to this thread are sure they weren't. Almost sounds a bit like judge and jury to me.

And I believe one of the protestors was so incensed with what he saw, he went back the next day to add to the numbers - am I reading that correctly?

Must agree there Paul, have noticed that, I for one am always willing to learn so would say if you have any advice with shooting (photographically) wildlife, feel free to post or PM me with any tips.
 
It isn't wind up mate. They are all valid points we make and you are right about incensing right minded people (appols for that). The wrong people do not read such posts.

I didn't mean wind up as in saying something for the sake of it I meant wind up as in aggravate
(or as you would a toy till something breaks).
look at it from my point of view, just as you and Peter are,
I am stating the facts of these posts as I see them.
And I have seen a lot of these type posts over the years
on many subjects, the most recent being wedding threads.
I will, with or without Peter (regardless of coincidental posts, lottery wins do happen!) try my very best to get restricted access to the beach. If you would like to help, anyone for that matter, in an attempt to improve the rights, welfare and conditions for these animals then please PM me otherwise please do something else.



I think that the animals ( seals that is) have it pretty good to be honest,
a lot better than a lot of wildlife in the UK.
They are protected around the clock by wardens
( if they are doing their job correctly and I would assume that they would)
Have their own private air force to keep people away
5 out of 7 days a week
and while I was there over the course of 2 days
I saw 3 dead pups and there were supposed to be around 650
( please feel free to correct me if you know exactly) I believe seals?
along the few miles that we walked talked and stalked.
Not a bad average I would say, compared again, to a lot of wildlife in the UK.
I wonder what the mortality rate is among Seals in desolated areas?


PS what is your views on very large grps, such as the one you mention being able to get on the beach in such a manor?

I have no idea what impact they were having on the seals as we stayed well
away from the group, so I cannot in all fairness, pass judgement on them
 
I was there as a "random photographer" and I must admit I saw some dodgy goings on at the beach. There were HEAPS of photographers and judging from the size of the average tele those guys were wielding, there was little need to be SO close to the seals. I did see one guy getting up close to a pup with a wide lens - I felt like saying something to him but didn't want to aggravate the situation further, I don't think it would have helped the little thing by that point :(

Generally people were well-behaved though. The trouble makers are a minority but then the sheer number of photographers present (on the beach) does make me wonder how disruptive it is to the seals.
 
You will always get the few idiots that spoil it for the many. In instances like this we have to all pull together and any responsible visitors should shame this minority into being more accountable for their actions. It will I'm sure be closed to the public if this behaviour is allowed to continue. I also believe that TP members are very passionate about wildlife and their preservation and well being.

Just seen the flikr photos my god it's manic. Looking at the shots they are also ignoring the "don't get too close" advice. I'm crossing this place off of my places to visit. I think I would get too upset or annoyed.
 
Have we seen these photos yet? If not I think its time to seriously consider if this thread is the work of trolls
 
Have we seen these photos yet? If not I think its time to seriously consider if this thread is the work of trolls

Still waiting in anticipation..... :shrug:

Patience guys :)

I have been in communication with plxpwm and as soon as he is around this morning he will be adding to this thread.
 
There was a very interesting and informative post on how people should behave last year with regards to the seals at Donna Nook. Every time I saw a thread asking about the place I tried to trawl the old post up to give people something to think about but perhaps it did no good.

If the forum is serious about doing something to improve things in the future perhaps posts like the one I mentioned need to be pinned somewhere prominent at the start of the season. Then collectively the forum need to point people to the post(s) when they ask about Donna Nook (people are too lazy to search 99% of the time).

Perhaps educational articles (not just about Donna Nook but other important areas and commonly occurring themes) could be included in a more frequent TP newsletter which is emailed to all members. I know the site staff have lives and other things to do so perhaps one or two of them could co-ordinate articles written by knowledgeable members to minimise their workoad.

Just a thought.
 
Just a thought.

And a good one.

As an animal lover, I too have found this thread both interesting and to be honest, a little disturbing. Educating is never a waste of time and we should all try and take something away from this.
 
I think it's a really good idea Kev. And its not just seals and Donna Nook.

I reckon a set of notes on

1. Seals (especially Donna Nook)
2. Red Deer in the rut (someone on here got a nasty wound from a fired up stag a year or so ago)
3. Nesting puffins
4. Schedule 1 and nest photography of protected species

and I am sure there are more.

I still think that education is a better approach than trying to blanket ban people.
 
I was talking to someone about this (away from these boards) on the way home on Sunday and we thought that maybe they should implement some sort of licensing scheme for the area where you only get access after attending some form of awareness course?
 
I agree that education is required however I don't think that in itself is enough.

I am quite shocked that the area does not have a very visible and pro-active security presence. Personally I think that access to the site should be charged for, moreso for those taking in camera set-ups. These funds could then be used for further security on the beach during the 'peak' season, awareness courses/literature (which advises those visiting on best practice), as rob200sx above said then whats left goes back into the conservation pot.
I am sure no-one frm this forum would be so ignorant as to behave in such ways but should a phtoographer get 'too' close to the wildlife as to cause undue distress, especially after being educated on the implcations of such actions on arrival, then they deserve to have their camera equipment removed until they leave the area.
 
I still think that education is as (more?) important as restricting numbers. If people have had little exposure to seals then they don't understand how to behave. The comment about singing is a good one. Sometimes, creeping up on an animal is more threatening than being cautious but open.

The media have a lot to take responsibility here. By promoting access to wildlife without raising some of the concerns, people aren't aware of what to think about. Steve Irwin was, of course, a great example but Springwatch had a segment on how to photograph kingfishers without mentioning Schedule 1 and the fact you need a licence to do so when they are nesting...

How many people here know the signs that a puffin is getting distressed?

Education is key. I wonder how much it would cost to put boards up at DN with some basic information to help guide people?

Sadly, all the Lincs Wildlife Trust says on its website is



Too close isn't enough information. I'm sure they could put notes about approaching slowly, keeping low etc. In fact, they say don't touch seals as they may bite but don't mention they may get abandoned...

Ticketing will never work as the beach is accessible from many spots if you are willing to walk.

Totally Agree Paul
 
In the time we were there saturday and sunday me and silverfox saw the seals being disturbed i to photographed people disturbing the seals and these pictures will be used in talks i give. I passed comments with 3 or 4 of the culprits over the weekend period and one of the main culprit groups was a photographic tour group they were there both days i have visted Donna Nook for over ten years this was the worst yet for the incidents . One pup was abandoned no other seal was within 75 yards of this pup he was of a reasonable size maybe not quite ready to be weaned but close he was alone for over 4 hrs with only photographers leaning over him i phoned back to alan who was at the car park and asked him to report this to a warden the answer was the wardens would check the beach later.
I for one think the beach should not be shut but should be marshalled a small charge made and a arm band and number on band would surfice and signs at other access points to beach i think limiting numbers would not work i must admit i was going to post a thread about this as well
Regards
Lost
 
Hi again all,

Sorry it has been a short while since my last post; writing on the internet is not the only thing I have to do with my time! Sometimes I have to do trivial things such as eat, sleep, and work!

Anyway, having had a little break away from this post I have read it through and decided that the best thing for me to do is to summarise the post so far, hopefully in a useful way that will not offend anyone. That way we can all move on from here without repeating ourselves, causing offense, or getting confused.

Firstly, some baseline facts about Donna Nook. The site is a rapidly growing tourist attraction and seal colony. Just to quote some figures the site was visited by an estimated 5,900 visitors this Sunday (according to Andy, one of the wardens I chatted to).

In terms of seals, the site is split into two colonies. The first of these is the dunes colony. The site's two car parks are at either end of this colony and are linked by a pathway. The colony is protected by a double fence erected in 2007 along this pathway. Wardens armed with binoculars patrol this pathway, partially to answer questions, partially to look for struggling seals, and partially to prevent members of the public acting up. The far side of this colony is not protected by a fence (as the seals could not get through!) but has signs indicating that the area is a seal sanctuary. As far as I am aware there are no problems with trespassing on this site.

The dunes colony seals are also perfectly used to humans viewing them from behind the fence. This is because this part of the site is open 24/7 to the public, and this year it is expected that around 250,000 visitors will tread its sands this year. With this in mind the wardens are doing a brilliant job, especially as they are an entirely volunteer workforce and are severely under staffed (or should that be volunteered? )

The debate on this thread is about the second colony; the beach colony. This colony is primarily used by adolescent seals and non-breeding adults (grey seals usually breed every other year) as a haul up area. However, a few seals do pup here annually (roughly 1/10th of the 1000 or so pups born so far this year were born in the beach colony).

Unlike the dunes colony, humans can only visit the colony when the red flag of the RAF is not flying. The seals have adapted to their different surroundings in different ways to those at the dunes colony. They are perfectly used to planes flying and even releasing rockets overhead which land 5 or so miles down the beach. However, these seals are not used to humans and view them as a threat.

There is a correct way to approach these seals to cause minimal disturbance, and unless one of you beats me to it, I will be writing a post A.S.A.P. on this because as you have been saying, education trumps finger pointing and I am sure many of the tips (such as singing to the seals!) are not things that would be immediately thought of by most relatively sane visitors Sorry I did not respond to your posts on education earlier grumpybadger, I was cycling home, cooking, eating, and talking to my girlfriend!

I observed the large majority of photographers (whether they be from the TPF or not) completely ignoring this, approaching the seals in whatever way they saw fit. Whether this was because of a lack of education in the matter, because people simply ignored what they knew, or because of peer pressure, I do not know. Regardless, the matter is important. Just to give you an idea, here are a few examples of the behaviours I saw this weekend.



This shows the colony before the arrival of the majority of photographers.



This is an organized group of photographers from a well known international photographic tour guide.



It is slightly unclear how close these photographers are due to telephoto compression, but I can confirm they were within 2m of the seal. Myself and two others had a stern word with these photographers.



A deserted seal pup completely surrounded by photographers; all within 5m.



Two seal pups that were, at the start of the day, completely surrounded by the colony. All the adult seals have left leaving these two pups together with one dead pup (out of shot)



This seal was surrounded on four sides by photographers. The one stood up in this shot was within 2m and using flash.

The wardens of the site (again, I know this from conversations with wardens such as Andy) believe scenes like these have lead to the increased number of abandoned pubs that is being seen this year.

As I am sure you can tell, this is a very emotive issue for me and as such I probably did not approach it in the right way because of my anger. I promise this is not, and has never been, a troll. I had to look up the term on urban dictionary to find out what it meant!!! I joined this community after looking through its forums for years gleaning what information I could when I realised it could be of more use to me if I became an active member (completely independently of the seemingly like-minded BobbyBlue I might add)

I did not wish to offend anyone with my posts and seriously regret any finger pointing I have been involved in. I am especially sorry for calling MrGubby Mr Grubby, I hope you will appreciate that this was a genuine mistake for which I apologise regardless! I hope you also understand the confusion over the post of yours I quoted. The internet is of course a global open community and it is easy to misunderstand the context in which a thread occurred, seemingly in isolation, without knowledge of a beer/curry fuelled conversation!

In return I hope you will agree to stop hassling me for being a new member. I joined this forum with genuine intentions and it is disheartening for new members like myself when I am alienated for making a valid point, all be it in a poorly judged way, simply for being a newbie.
While we are on the subject of my actions, it has been pointed out to me that I did indeed venture onto the beach for a second day this weekend after seeing all the problems on the first day. This was wrong of me and I admit this; I hope you will permit me a brief explanation of why I did this.

Firstly, there were some selfish motives. I had booked a hotel room for Saturday night and as someone on a tight budget did not want to waste that money. This is a crappy reason but one of the unfortunate realities of photography. Secondly, I love Donna Nook. I did not want to believe that what had happened the day before had actually happened. I wanted to give the site a second chance.

In my defence I left the beach colony sometime between 10 and 11 (time is relative, not absolute on the beach) after the arrival of a particularly large group of photographers in the part of the colony I was photographing. I spent the afternoon talking to the wardens about the issues I have raised here and taking a walk along the dunes away from the dune colony and through some of the nearby countryside. On a side note I would really recommend this to everyone reading this. On the salt flats I saw huge flocks of golden plover and Brent geese, and in the drainage ditches around the farmland I saw a egrets, hundreds of teal, and a kingfisher.

Anyway, back to the issue in hand; what to do about the problem.

It has been suggested that a ticketing system would solve the problems. I was initially enthusiastic about this idea, but have regrettably realised that the idea has multiple problems. Firstly, the site is governed by bylaws put in place by the RAF and as such, only they have the right to refuse access to the beach. I cannot imagine troopers being stationed at every entrance to the beach manning ticket booths!!! Secondly, the sheer number of entrances is a problem as they would be impossible to man.

As short term measures I favour two things. Firstly, a post on how to act in Donna Nook as mentioned above. Secondly, wardens on the beach. Andy (the aforementioned warden) has said he will consult Rob (the head warden) about getting at least one warden on the beach at all times.

In terms of the long term, more education does seem to be the way to do things. As I mentioned in a previous post, I will be emailing the Lincs wildlife trust with the photos I have posted here and will suggest the erection of guidelines for photographers at the entrance to the beach. I think this would be easier for them than having to post fliers on every car, photographer or not and beach visitor or casual dune walker or not. This would be a constant expense and also require a large amount of extremely valuable man hours.

I will not be mailing the RAF asking for support in having the site shut down as I previously mentioned I might do. This is in part due to the fact I have heard members talk of visiting the site for the first time in the next few weeks and do not want to be a part of depriving people amazing experiences like those I have had over the last three years. If, however, the situation has not improved within the next few years I think I will have to.
Kind regards,

Peter

p.s. Sorry, I did hope to attribute ideas to everyone in this post, but it turned out being pretty large so I ran out of time.
 
Peter

A good, well rounded post. Thank you for taking the time to respond.

I personally think that a board telling people (and not just photographers from what I saw last year) how to behave is a great idea. I wonder if we should be trying to help fund that as a group of concerned photographers?

I personally do not think the RAF will ever close the site, which is why I am so much a fan of education. Perhaps a magazine article would be a good idea for next year?

Also a good point on DN being a wildlife haven for more than seals. Some of my favourite pics from my last trip (I've not yet been this season but will) were of sanderling running the tide line.

One final thought - I am amazed by people standing so close to the seals as, not only do you disturb them, but the pictures from that angle generally look rubbish too...
 
Peter

Had a quick read of this thread last night.

I am now sure that i was part of one of the groups you are describing.

You walked passed us furiously on the sunday morning, shouting at us for being "depraved and disgusting" for taking shots of a group of seals with a dead pup in the middle. You claimed that we were too close and that it was our fault that the pup had died, as the mother wouldnt feed it because of our proximity. Now you shouted and swore at us quite loudly and agressively and i took great exception to that for three reasons.

1. we were at least 6 metres away from the seals which is more than plenty. We were also laying down which is a less threatening posture to them.

2. We werent actually taking pictures of the dead pup

3. That pup was still born the previous morning (we saw it) and the mother was still confused as to whether it was alive or not. There had not been a very high tide that night so the body had not been washed away.

It really ****es me off when people start making accustations and aggresive comments when they really dont have the all the information. Really i am sure you storming past us and shouting caused more distress to the seals that we did! In fact they looked up and i got a cracking shot of a seal looking almost straight into my lens - so perhaps i should thank you? I wont though, because you were being unreasonable. If you had quietly approached us and expressed your concerns i am sure we would have taken them into account and adjusted position for you. Shouting will just put peoples backs up and it certainly did mine.

I have some shots taken at 17mm of a seal pup (about 3 feet away) , who had already been abandoned by its mother. This pup kept crawling towards me and i had to actually back off so it wouldnt touch my lens or my hand, fearing that it would contaminate itself.
We are pretty sure that this pup was rescued from the description of its location by the staff at the seal sanctury, where we gave our £80 donation.

However the sad fact is, these pups should not have been born on the sand banks, but on the nursery areas in the dunes. Inexperienced mothers (or even just cows caught short on the way to the nursery) pup on the sand bank. Without human intervention these pups WILL die. They need to be weaned for 3 weeks before they can swim/move properly and as there is a high tide every week, they will be drowned and swept away. Its sad, but its a fact of their natural lives. If i can take a picture of those pups before they inevitably die, then what is the problem? We were clearly not stressing that pup out as it was coming owards us and thought we were "mum".

I understand your concerns, but your method of trying to get people to see things your way is highly flawed.

Rob
 
Great post Peter, here are some pictures of mine.



This shot shows the sheer amount of photographers descending on the beach colony.



One seal in the wrong place at the wrong time.



This is a picture of three seal pups plus three mothers trying to defend/feed their pups. I think this could have been at the same or similar time to when Peter had taken one of his. The guy in the red and white jacket looks familiar.
 
You are contradicting yourself here kaben one minute you are 6 meters away and then

I have some shots taken at 17mm of a seal pup (about 3 feet away)

I would have backed off if the pup was heading in my direction long before it was at this distance.
 
Dear Rob,

I am sorry but my last thread was an attempt to calm the situation down in an attempt to get a reasoned and less accusatory debate more underway. I have apologized for my earlier inflammatory posts but two rights do not make a wrong.

As for

making accustations and aggresive comments when they really dont have the all the information.

I can confirm that it was not me calling you "depraved and disgusting" let alone "shouting and swearing" at you.

Secondly, absence of a mother is not enough to confirm that the pup has been abandoned - mothers often retreat to a safe distance when danger threatens returning when the coast is clear or even return to the sea to feed. This will be in my future education article. Pups heading towards you thinking you are mum are clearly to be left well alone, simply not touching them is not enough. Seals have a very acute sense of smell similar to that of dogs.

It is also not true that the beach colony is a location simply for inexperienced mothers. Yes, there are often monthly high tides which do drown seals (last year a storm surge occurred in mid-november killing many pups) but this is the case with almost all seal colonies around the country, Donna Nook's dunes colony being the exception rather than the rule. For example, the Farne Islands colony has a 40% mortality rate due to the sea but is still a perfectly viable colony.

I have seen many seals in the beach colony almost ready to leave the beach perfectly happily without the aid of humans.

Regards,

Peter
 
Rob, without wising to point fingers or inflame the situation further can I ask what your reason for shooting with a 17mm lens was? You seem more clued up than most about the seals and the sanctary so was it really necessary to be that close? Couldn't you have got the shot with a moderately longer lens from a safer distance?
 
Great post Peter, here are some pictures of mine.



This shot shows the sheer amount of photographers descending on the beach colony.



One seal in the wrong place at the wrong time.



This is a picture of three seal pups plus three mothers trying to defend/feed their pups. I think this could have been at the same or similar time to when Peter had taken one of his. The guy in the red and white jacket looks familiar.

I am not quite sure what the 1st is trying to show, it certainly does not convey an onslaught of photgraphers :thinking:

The second shot is difficult to guage, the peope look to be a fair distance from the seal and without circumstance it is difficult to say the reason for the gathering. Very few seem to have cameras out though.....

The 3rd, well tbh they all look to be at least 20 ft from the seals, if not more. Again this does not convey the toggers in the proximity you suggested.

I am not saying you are lying but simply that these photos dont actually prove your points :)
 
I am not quite sure what the 1st is trying to show, it certainly does not convey an onslaught of photgraphers
The second shot is difficult to guage, the peope look to be a fair distance from the seal and without circumstance it is difficult to say the reason for the gathering. Very few seem to have cameras out though.....

The 3rd, well tbh they all look to be at least 20 ft from the seals, if not more. Again this does not convey the toggers in the proximity you suggested.

I am not saying you are lying but simply that these photos dont actually prove your points

If you look at the picture the distant (I was obviously some distance away) figures are groups of people, at least 5 groups (several can be just about made out from the land to the right of the picture).

The second shows one of these groups. The fact a group of people that size meanders past a loan seal without cameras out shows their disconcern. Surely a wide berth should be given to the seal.

The last photo shows the people surrounding the seals for a start. There is no escape route for the seals. They were surrounded. It also shows that the colony have completely disapeared into the sea, leaving the seals that cannot go in the sea, pups and mothers.

There was no point in putting up identical pictures to the ones that have already been posted. Granted the pictures arent the best quality, this wasn't my concern, however I think along side the pictures previously posted it enphasizes the points being made.

Regards
 
If you look at the picture the distant (I was obviously some distance away) figures are groups of people, at least 5 groups (several can be just about made out from the land to the right of the picture).

The second shows one of these groups. The fact a group of people that size meanders past a loan seal without cameras out shows their disconcern. Surely a wide berth should be given to the seal.

The last photo shows the people surrounding the seals for a start. There is no escape route for the seals. They were surrounded. It also shows that the colony have completely disapeared into the sea, leaving the seals that cannot go in the sea, pups and mothers.

There was no point in putting up identical pictures to the ones that have already been posted. Granted the pictures arent the best quality, this wasn't my concern, however I think along side the pictures previously posted it enphasizes the points being made.

Regards


I think we'll just have to agree to disagree as to the point your photos make.
 
I have to say, I'm still not sure the number of photographers is the issue. And if it is, then I presume people saying that have no plans to return?

The behaviour is the key. Yes, lots of people make it challenging to get "clean" pictures but the stretch of beach is long enough to support a couple of hundred people if they know what they are doing without getting too close to the seals.

Peter - you obviously know a lot more about the seals than I do, I have visited the colony a number of times and have been very eager to not to disturb the animals. Photography of animals is a (serious) hobby and I have no professional experience of zoology or marine biology. However, I am used to writing briefing material so if I can be of any use in helping you with your document, please let me know.
 
Taken from a link Liam posted earlier

During those days I hardly used my long lenses but I enjoyed playing with different flashlights.

By Laurent Geslin on Nov 26, 2008
Hi and thanks for your comment,
yes I did use flash, sometime up to 5 (not on that one)…
Regards.

In reference to a picture of a seal that doesn't look like it was taken with a very long lens. This is a pro Tog that posts in a magazine. :thinking:
 
You are contradicting yourself here kaben one minute you are 6 meters away and then



I would have backed off if the pup was heading in my direction long before it was at this distance.

Rob, without wising to point fingers or inflame the situation further can I ask what your reason for shooting with a 17mm lens was? You seem more clued up than most about the seals and the sanctary so was it really necessary to be that close? Couldn't you have got the shot with a moderately longer lens from a safer distance?

I was trying to convey that i wasn't always far away from the seals, but i did try at all times to maintain that they did not feel threatened etc. I used the 17mm as i had an opportunity to take a wonderful picture. We had to keep moving our bags as this particular pup kept trying to get inside them, i kid you not.

I am sorry Peter for having singled you out as the person who shouted at us - it just seemed like a coincidence so i jumped to conclusions. Apologies.

As far as tides go, there is a 7.5m tide coming to Donna Nook on Friday, so those pups will not be alive by next weekend :'(
Despite that, we never got between them and the sea or surrounded them threateningly, always keeping low and moving in toward them slowly. The safe speed we were told by our guide was 2ft every 2 minutes.
 
I will probably be flamed for using 17mm anyway, so here is the shot that i got from it:



EDIT: sorry, just looked at the EXIF, it was taken at 25mm, but that is near as damned no difference anyway.
 




Bobby Blue and plxpwm
I applaud your efforts in trying to defuse this thread in the face of a little
adversity and I am as guilty as anyone ;)

BUT I still stand by what I said, legislation, be careful what you wish for.
I have seen too many knee jerk laws and asking the government to regulate
certain things, both here and abroad, only to end up getting a negative result
rather than a positive.
Unfortunately any government doesn't seem to understand the concept of "middle ground"

Education YES
regulation NO

But then again only those that are sympathetic "to the cause"
will listen the rest will not!

Good luck in you "quest" none the less :thumbs:
 
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