Maybe newbie was the incorrect term. How would the phtographer who has a good understanding of his equipment and has done a fair amount of portraiture go about becoming a Wedding Photographer, I assume that this would be the minumum requirement for this.
Doing a Wedding HELP.
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Maybe newbie was the incorrect term. How would the phtographer who has a good understanding of his equipment and has done a fair amount of portraiture go about becoming a Wedding Photographer, I assume that this would be the minumum requirement for this.
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Who says so.
With a couple of braincells between them they should no not to expect miracles.
Most people know "you get what you pay for"
But if they are happy.............................
And you have not lost out as you wouldn't have got the job.
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PapaLazarou
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Just going to sit back now and watch how this progresses...
As a matter of interest, how do you all think George (GFWilliams) got on at his FIRST wedding - considering he is 15 years old???
I gave some comments on the pics you will have to read them.
He will learn and hope he does good.
D
digitalmaniac
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Well this is what i did-placed an ad on a wedding forum offering FREE photography and look at my other work. Have a booking for july in nottingham am travelling there from near london doing a whole day for free and getting a portfolio and setting up a studio at hotel and hopefully get some paid work from it.
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Just going to sit back now and watch how this progresses...
As a matter of interest, how do you all think George (GFWilliams) got on at his FIRST wedding - considering he is 15 years old???
Firstly, his age is irrelavent.
Secondly for a First time very impressive.
S
Slvrbck
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I asked for some advice on shooting a wedding not so long ago...
Same old story, mate on a very ltd budget just wanted someone to take pictures...
I understand how my camera works but thought I would ask for some tips before the big day.
Most people where great and gave some good tips but a few people had a dig at me and said "If you need to ask for advice, you shouldn't be doing it".
I was gutted.
If you don't want to give advice, don't comment, but don't have a dig at people that are trying to learn.
Same old story, mate on a very ltd budget just wanted someone to take pictures...
I understand how my camera works but thought I would ask for some tips before the big day.
Most people where great and gave some good tips but a few people had a dig at me and said "If you need to ask for advice, you shouldn't be doing it".
I was gutted.
If you don't want to give advice, don't comment, but don't have a dig at people that are trying to learn.
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Its an incorrect assumption to think that wedding couples actually know the difference between a good professional and a bad amateur shots.
Many have no clue, so when they see professional advertisement at half the price of another they think great, bargain ..and they don't actually notice the difference in quality as being that different, because just like us before photography.... we didn't see and rate an image for the composition/exposure/qualities it possessed. HTMS.
Most people know you get what you pay for yes, but how many think digital photography is much cheaper and easier than it was in the passed.
So isn't it upto the professional photographer to keep the level of his work high and in doing so compete with othrers in his field to maintain that high level....without that appreciation the general populous would slip into 'oh that will do, its digital and in focus' what else is their to want for'
Many have no clue, so when they see professional advertisement at half the price of another they think great, bargain ..and they don't actually notice the difference in quality as being that different, because just like us before photography.... we didn't see and rate an image for the composition/exposure/qualities it possessed. HTMS.
Most people know you get what you pay for yes, but how many think digital photography is much cheaper and easier than it was in the passed.
So isn't it upto the professional photographer to keep the level of his work high and in doing so compete with othrers in his field to maintain that high level....without that appreciation the general populous would slip into 'oh that will do, its digital and in focus' what else is their to want for'
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I think you give far too much importance on the pictures, its the sentiment, the meaning behind the ceremony and the memory etched in themselves that they get from a wedding, if the main reason for a wedding was to get good photo's, it might as well be all staged in a studio and done exactly as required?
Photo's have varying importance to people and according to that, they'll decide if they want a full-pro or a family friend or the neighbourhood amateur, and its thier wedding and thier choice
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For a lot of couples the photos are there to "Capture the moment", nothing more, nothing less, so are, as a consequence, less important to the couple that the spectical of the day itself.
As we move more and more to a fully digital, "connected" society, the printed image is also becoming less important as people want to be able to email the pictures all over the world.
There will always be a place for Pro wedding photographers, but there is also the place for the "Happy Snapper" / Friend / Amateur etc depending on budget (Even more so as budgets are being squeezed ever more tightly due the increase in costs of virtually everything)
Chris
As we move more and more to a fully digital, "connected" society, the printed image is also becoming less important as people want to be able to email the pictures all over the world.
There will always be a place for Pro wedding photographers, but there is also the place for the "Happy Snapper" / Friend / Amateur etc depending on budget (Even more so as budgets are being squeezed ever more tightly due the increase in costs of virtually everything)
Chris
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I swear people used to get married before 1839.. maybe they were all just miserable for the rest of their lives. Obviously a marriage is just an excuse to get dressed up and have some swish piccys taken.
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I'd really like PapaLazarou to point me to a thread on this forum where a complete clueless novice has asked for advice on shooting a wedding.
I agree it's not something you should take on if you are not up to it, but it's quite possible to be up to the job and need advice because your nervous and you've never done it before. Everyone has to start somewhere and asking questions is the only way to get answers, that's why these forums exist!
I agree it's not something you should take on if you are not up to it, but it's quite possible to be up to the job and need advice because your nervous and you've never done it before. Everyone has to start somewhere and asking questions is the only way to get answers, that's why these forums exist!
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I attended a friends wedding as the unofficial photographer. The Pro did all the main shots and I filled in the gaps taking mostly candids.
Everyone who has seen them so far has said how well they've come out and how maybe they didnt need a pro. I think this is due to the shots coming out better than a 'point and click' camera and because I've got a small amount of experience, nothing more.
I really enjoyed the day and communicated with the pro well. He was very helpful, even giving me tips along the way.
I'd like to do another one in the same capacity to gain experience. I usual photograph motorsport so its a totally new world for me. I asked for tips a few weeks back and got some excellent help on lighting and the use of flash etc. Shame some people think anyone wanting to expand their knowledge shouldnt bother. We all started somewhere!
Everyone who has seen them so far has said how well they've come out and how maybe they didnt need a pro. I think this is due to the shots coming out better than a 'point and click' camera and because I've got a small amount of experience, nothing more.
I really enjoyed the day and communicated with the pro well. He was very helpful, even giving me tips along the way.
I'd like to do another one in the same capacity to gain experience. I usual photograph motorsport so its a totally new world for me. I asked for tips a few weeks back and got some excellent help on lighting and the use of flash etc. Shame some people think anyone wanting to expand their knowledge shouldnt bother. We all started somewhere!
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by the looks of it, i think people are seeing where PL is coming from, and to the sort of people he is aiming at, and i think he is trying to protect brides and grooms and credibility in his job.
i would say this thread isnt aimed at anyone who understands what the camera is and how to use it properly. more towards "buy camera, im a pro" types. the wedding tog job is to get a visual copy of the big day, you cock it up, then they can get very upset over it, it is not like a studio where you make a mistake, you can offer to reshoot. they spent hundreds or thousands on the day and it is a once in a lifetime thing hopefully.
that said, i also understand the people who come on and ask advice, as they have to shoot friend/family wedding as the budget wont stretch(they are already using family cars for transport, the whole thing has been done on favours and tight budgets). as the one with the dslr, you become the tog for the day(and hopefully you have explained what your abilities are).
there are other things to consider though, weddings normally contain a lot of people and if you are a hobbyist(as in not usually earn money of it), what happens when accidently kicks your camera bag and smashes your 70-200 f2.8is lens, trips over smashes there arm on a table and cut themselves with glass and sue you? do you have the relevant insurance to cover all this?
in the end, as long as the b&g are aware of your ability and they are happy, good luck and hope you dont have the problem. im sure many a friendship has/will be ended when/if something goes wrong.
i would say this thread isnt aimed at anyone who understands what the camera is and how to use it properly. more towards "buy camera, im a pro" types. the wedding tog job is to get a visual copy of the big day, you cock it up, then they can get very upset over it, it is not like a studio where you make a mistake, you can offer to reshoot. they spent hundreds or thousands on the day and it is a once in a lifetime thing hopefully.
that said, i also understand the people who come on and ask advice, as they have to shoot friend/family wedding as the budget wont stretch(they are already using family cars for transport, the whole thing has been done on favours and tight budgets). as the one with the dslr, you become the tog for the day(and hopefully you have explained what your abilities are).
there are other things to consider though, weddings normally contain a lot of people and if you are a hobbyist(as in not usually earn money of it), what happens when accidently kicks your camera bag and smashes your 70-200 f2.8is lens, trips over smashes there arm on a table and cut themselves with glass and sue you? do you have the relevant insurance to cover all this?
in the end, as long as the b&g are aware of your ability and they are happy, good luck and hope you dont have the problem. im sure many a friendship has/will be ended when/if something goes wrong.
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I wish I was allowed to swear. Idiotic and unhelpful post IMO.
Edit: let be clarify my harsh comments. You are basically ripping the sh*t out of anyone who has the brass balls to stand up and say "you know what, I CAN make something of myself, and the only place to start is the bottom".
For the record, I have NO qualifications, and I have ZERO time for education. I started tinkering with PC's in 1999, and I visited my first web site in 2000, when I got scared as I thought an American Web Site would cost more to visit than a UK one.
My take home pay last year was enough to pay my mortgage off, and I only managed that as I had the brass balls to stand up and say "Hey, I will do your web site", even when I was clueless.
Give people a break, and help them. Don't make them feel like ****, it makes you look smaller than them.
Gary.
The question you have to ask is WHY is there no budget for a professional photographer? If there is a budget for a professional car/driver - a professional caterer - a venue - a dress - etc etc - then why is the photographer considered the one that is dispensable? The pictures will last a lot longer than even the memories of the day let alone the 5 minute car ride or the dress costing hundreds and never to be worn again.
Ok, not everyone does have all these things at the wedding, but it is often the case that they pay for these services and then want the pics for zilch. A lot of that comes down to the fact that because Pal 'A' has a digital that looks posher than their P&S then he must be able to do it.
If you are a amateur and really can work at the required standard - and have the people skills - and the equipment (and back-up) - and feel able to take on the huge responsibility - then go ahead. But there have been a lot of people on here asking very basic questions before shooting a wedding they clearly should not have been doing. It is especially damaging when amateurs deliberately give the impression of being a pro, charging very low rates - and often producing very poor work. Easy to charge low rates if you just want to earn some money for new equipment on the side - and don't have to eat, pay rent, business expenses, phones, car, travel costs, insurance etc from the proceeds - it's not all profit.
BTW I don't shoot weddings - and have been a freelance for 37 years.
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Wedding costs seem to be totally insane to me now, enough to put down a decent deposit on a house. If people are limited in their budget then it's up to them how they spend that budget, they may well feel that they'd rather make sure their friends and family get well fed and remember an enjoyable day and its all captured on the point and shoots of a few friends than that a great pro gets amazing photos of people looking grumpy and miserable eating dried up cheese sandwiches at a buffet.
Oh, and I have various friend who have got married in hired or second hand dresses or ones made by friends and family and been driven about in cars owned or hired and driven by family. Pro photographers are certainly not the only pro to get cut when budgets are tight.
If you don't wish to give away your pro secrets to amateurs doing a favour for a friend, by all means don't comment on their threads asking for help but this thread seems a little unnecessary in my opinion.
The problem is far wider ranging than just weddings sadly.
Ever since digital came along there has been a steady decline in the industry both financially and quality.
The wedding business is seen as fair game to some amateurs who seem to operate on a take hundreds of pics and something will work policy.
Ive seen many of these weddings around the net and on this site and yes they look "ok" but in reality they are no better than what uncle fred could have done.
Digital photography has allowed people to take better photographs then ever before without any real knowledge ........... BUT !
Only an experienced professional will give those pics that extra little touch that seperate them from the rest,
Where the amateur really falls down at a wedding is when the light goes bad or it rains or the groups are hard to manage etc etc etc and as Ive said thats when the experience comes into play, and things do go wrong and you have to know how to fix it and fix it fast !
We will never stop the amateurs having a go and trying to do the job but remember this, there is a reason pro's have spent years training and assisting.
They will continue to knock out a very average set of pics which then get printed at an amateur lab and presented in a 2 bob album.
Am I threatened by that ??
Nope not at all
What I am upset by is the public perception of my industry when it goes wrong .
By all means get into the industry but please get training , go and assist and learn the trade there is a damm sight more to it than buying a camera from jessops and taking 100's of snaps.
Ever since digital came along there has been a steady decline in the industry both financially and quality.
The wedding business is seen as fair game to some amateurs who seem to operate on a take hundreds of pics and something will work policy.
Ive seen many of these weddings around the net and on this site and yes they look "ok" but in reality they are no better than what uncle fred could have done.
Digital photography has allowed people to take better photographs then ever before without any real knowledge ........... BUT !
Only an experienced professional will give those pics that extra little touch that seperate them from the rest,
Where the amateur really falls down at a wedding is when the light goes bad or it rains or the groups are hard to manage etc etc etc and as Ive said thats when the experience comes into play, and things do go wrong and you have to know how to fix it and fix it fast !
We will never stop the amateurs having a go and trying to do the job but remember this, there is a reason pro's have spent years training and assisting.
They will continue to knock out a very average set of pics which then get printed at an amateur lab and presented in a 2 bob album.
Am I threatened by that ??
Nope not at all
What I am upset by is the public perception of my industry when it goes wrong .
By all means get into the industry but please get training , go and assist and learn the trade there is a damm sight more to it than buying a camera from jessops and taking 100's of snaps.
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PapaLazarou
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Fletch5
Well said
Well said
Jayst84
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That shouldn't matter really. Although I'm sure it would be a problem in a lot of cases. If it does though, then every woman who ever puts her handbag down should take out public liability insurance for fear of some clumsy ambulance chaser.
Jamie (hates the world).
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i appreciate that, but a lot take money for the shoot, thus making you a paid member, thus distinguishing you from any personal insurance policies etc..
i was under the impression as a business(which i assume would cover anyone getting paid)you have to by law have public liability insurance to cover these things.
and to clarify, i am no pro.
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He can do that without trying to deliberately upset and in my opinion publicly humiliate one or two individuals who might rightly or wrongly be trying to start as wedding togs.
Tell them straight, and keep it real. Do not use some crappy sarcastic post to show how much of an "elite" you need to be.
I thought TPF was a friendly place, for useful advice, hints and tips?
As far as I can see, his post was designed to bully and ridicule a few brave forum members.
Elitist to say the least.
Gary.
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Thankfully not, and for every "I'm so much better than you" member, there are hundreds of others who WILL offer help and advice. Well done to them.
I suspected something with the "Ooooh look at my f1.2 50mm".
Now I know
Gary.
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Jayst84
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Yea if you're getting paid then the insurance should be there. But if you're there as a mate with a camera, you shouldn't need it anymore than any of the other guests there with their P&S (or 400D and 18-55 as everyone has these days).
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Simple really The Bride and Groom have decided where they do wish to spend and where they don't.
Your post is the same as saying You can't get married unless you guarantee a booking with a professional photographer.
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I wonder what the next person thinking of doing a wedding will feel if they read this thread?
The way which he made his complaint was foolish and unfair, and smacks of arrogance, he is almost saying "You will never be able to do it". What a bully boy.Gary.
Ok - if you want to shoot weddings great. Amateurs with NO experience should not shoot weddings PERIOD. Yes, you have to start somewhere - but you do not start by using a real wedding as a test ground for your ability. You start by assisting another photographer - for lots and lots of weddings - in all sorts of venues - in all sorts of weather conditions - and you learn how it's done - there is a LOT more to it than knowing how to use a DSLR. After maybe a couple of years of that you go it alone. Another way - if it's a friends wedding is to shoot candids - along side the pro - as someone mentioned in this thread - you can learn a lot from that as well - without the total responsibility of handling the entire job. If you are asked - then think long and hard - for the sake of the B&G - before saying yes.
I'm not getting at anyone - I hope this is helpful and sensible advice!
I'm not getting at anyone - I hope this is helpful and sensible advice!
OP
PapaLazarou
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We don't mind helping but don't mess with peoples big day if you don't know what to do.
Asking things like do I need flash for a wedding or any other simple thing, if you dont know what to do don't do it.
Asking things like do I need flash for a wedding or any other simple thing, if you dont know what to do don't do it.
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If I was getting married and picked up on some of the attitudes being shown here I would consider that highly unprofessional and go somewhere else.
PL do you need to use bold text in some posts to get your point over, some might say that shows insecurity as well?
PL do you need to use bold text in some posts to get your point over, some might say that shows insecurity as well?
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Why are you even here then? If you are sick of noobs and novices wanting advice, you know how to deal with it.
Bullying them is just stupid. I am a novice, and I would LOVE to do a wedding in your neck of the woods. In fact, watch this space.
Gary.
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I think this is one of the most gratuitously offensive things I've ever seen on TP.
PL, if you want to assume an air of smug elitism and tell people how to run their lives, and what they should or shouldn't spend their money on, then I'm sure there are other forums which will cater to you.
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i appreciate where your coming from, and words on forums can come over stronger than intended.
i have to agree that some of the posts seem harsh in how they are worded, but i think a fair few may be written in anger? i have also noticed, as an example gfwilliams thread, he started off with a harsh comment, perhaps of anger or worded harshly to make him think, but he does offer a lot of good advicefurther on.
the forum posts are relatively short in description, if you describe that you have put effort into figuring it out yourself and show you have understanding of the camera then PL offers good advice, but a lot dont say much about any ideas they have or any previous skills they have in that area. and with only 3 posts behind them, i tend to assume little to no experience until shown otherwise. perhaps the wrong way round, but i would rather over simplify to a pro than over complicate for a beginner.
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Some people might never have used a flash before and are considering buying one to try to make the best of their efforts on the day.
Do they need a put down because of that...no.
As I've already said it is not a job you have lost, so really not your problem.
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That's why I suggested maybe he should become a wedding planner.
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I dont think anyone said you NEED at flash to do a wedding... there are times like bright sunshine where a bit of fill in is a great idea.
But apparently people who are considering it... are not allowed to do so as they arent good enough to ask for advice :shrug:
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i would use the flash to fill in the foreground and lighten the shadows in outdoor portraits, you would not have them looking into the sun as they will all be squinting.
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I agree with a lot of what he is complaining about. I totally and whole heartidly disagree with his method of complaining.
Creating a thread to DELIBERATELY slag off a few members is cruel. be honest and straight to the point if you MUST make them feel like sh*t. Why get the whole world to join in? It's playground bullying, and it sucks to see it here of all places.
Gary.
PS - ignore my spelling, I never did school
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