Do you eat halal meat?

Animals slaughtered via halal method actually die a lot quicker than those that are stunned - heart still beating, pumps blood out of the body far more efficiently - you get the jist. It doesn't come down to how quickly the animal dies, that's not the point that people are debating. It's the method of slaughter.

The most criminal thing about Western methods of slaughter is the fact that hundreds of thousands of animals are discarded as 'unfit for consumption' because the blood hasn't drained out of the animal when they're hung out to drain. A person I know who (unfortunately) works on the kill-line of chicken slaughter house has described how he's become completely detached from the concept of killing a living creature when he slits the throat of every other chicken on a conveyor belt for eight hours a day. One in ten of those chickens is thrown in the bin. The UK slaughters millions of chickens a day (931 million chickens a year). Do you not think there is something inherently wrong with that?

I agree with the sentiment. I just think it's funny the way we criticise one another when we're all a part of the same problem.
 
BTW, I've just eaten one of those 'Mixed Chicken Triple' sandwiches from Morrison's. :cool:
 
having seen someof the crap that goes on in slaughter houses first hand I can't get to excited about halal - having its throat cut is probably more humane than being shot several times with a defective bolt gun before the slaghterman gives up and bludgeons it with a crowbar.
 
Its also a little hypocritical that muslim halal pracices are always singled out in this debate , when jewish kosher practices 'Shechita' ammount to pretty much the same thing apart for the religion of the slaughterman.
 
big soft moose said:
Its also a little hypocritical that muslim halal pracices are always singled out in this debate , when jewish kosher practices 'Shechita' ammount to pretty much the same thing apart for the religion of the slaughterman.
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But it's so much easier to pick on the followers of Islam. They tend not to be the same colour as us you see. I've been deleting people from my Facebook who share posts by Britain First. Reading their website you'd think no white person commits crime in the UK. Of course that very same sentiment is propagated by the likes of the Daily Mail too, but in a much more subtle way. A way that resonates with some members here.
 
Morrison's say they select, slaughter and butcher all their own fresh meat.
However they do stock the marvellous "Mumtaz" Lamb curry... which is clearly marked as Halal.

It is as good as Mumtaz serve in their famous restaurants.
In the past I have had to wait for a table in their Bradford one at 11.30am in the morning, as they tend to be full all day ( they seat 500.) You will find somewhat more English people there than Muslims. and everything is halal.
 
neil_g said:
if you dont know it cant hurt you. if you were deeply religious/offended by it youd already know.
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I disagree, I don't accept the 'ignorance is bliss' argument - being religious/offended/upset does not mean that you would already know ... the whole point about this is the lack of transparency at the point of sale. Yes you could enquire about the provenance of every product you buy but it could change week by week - honest labeling would be much more effective.
 
big soft moose said:
Its also a little hypocritical that muslim halal pracices are always singled out in this debate , when jewish kosher practices 'Shechita' ammount to pretty much the same thing apart for the religion of the slaughterman.
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but its not a practice being used by companies selling in mainstream outlets in the UK, really would be the same hype if it was but then I suppose its easier just to say its all about racism and that makes it go away.
Always amazes me how quick people are to pull out the racism card, maybe the news is tilting the opinions a little but either way the fact remains halal meat is done primarily for religious reasons, a practice that others are having to accept even if its no their religion. To say it would be different if it was kosher is utter rubbish
 
pitkin2020 said:
but its not a practice being used by companies selling in mainstream outlets in the UK, really would be the same hype if it was but then I suppose its easier just to say its all about racism and that makes it go away.
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but the practices mentioned in my other post and similar are regularly used by abatoirs supplying mainstream supermarkets - to sat its not about racism is alittle disingenous when people are worried aout halal , but not about say battery chickens, or pork crates, or veal , etc
 
Dale_tem said:
Do i care if meet is halal? is it worse for me? no does it make a real difference no? why is everyone up in arms? no idea ???
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I prefer the animals that my meat come from die in as less pain and stress as possible. animal welfare should not be put behind religious beliefs. The UK should follow Iceland, Liechtenstein, Denmark, Poland and Sweden and ban it - goes for Kosher too. I'll not eat Halal meat if possible
 
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POAH said:
I prefer the animals that my meat come from die in as less pain and stress as possible. animal welfare should not be put behind religious beliefs. The UK should follow Iceland, Liechtenstein, Denmark, Poland and Sweden and ban it - goes for Kosher too. I'll not eat Halal meat if possible
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Animal welfare? That animal is raised to be killed for your benefit. Where's the welfare in that? So there may be a degree of difference in suffering depending on how it is killed, but all talk of welfare goes out of the window when it is killed for your consumption. If you REALLY care about animal welfare then don't eat them.
 
POAH said:
I prefer the animals that my meat come from die in as less pain and stress as possible. animal welfare should not be put behind religious beliefs. The UK should follow Iceland, Liechtenstein, Denmark, Poland and Sweden and ban it - goes for Kosher too. I'll not eat Halal meat if possible
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That seems rich coming from Denmark especially.

So none of those countries import New Zealand lamb then?
 
Ricardodaforce said:
Animal welfare? That animal is raised to be killed for your benefit. Where's the welfare in that? So there may be a degree of difference in suffering depending on how it is killed, but all talk of welfare goes out of the window when it is killed for your consumption. If you REALLY care about animal welfare then don't eat them.
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Do you care about animal welfare?
 
gramps said:
Do you care about animal welfare?
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I'm honest here. I care about the meat I eat and how much I enjoy it. I don't cry crocodile tears about the methods used to get that meat as I tuck into a good steak. I don't look at my shoes, belt or wallet and softly sigh as I think to myself "I do hope the animal died a nice death so I could benefit from its skin".
 
pitkin2020 said:
but its not a practice being used by companies selling in mainstream outlets in the UK, really would be the same hype if it was but then I suppose its easier just to say its all about racism and that makes it go away.
Always amazes me how quick people are to pull out the racism card, maybe the news is tilting the opinions a little but either way the fact remains halal meat is done primarily for religious reasons, a practice that others are having to accept even if its no their religion. To say it would be different if it was kosher is utter rubbish
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Why oh why do people think that if you criticise immigration or say this issue it means u r racist? It was the same over gay marriages despite some gay people actually being opposed to it (my old boss for example) does that make him homophobic?

If it was kosher rather than halal I would imagine the same people would also be against it.
 
cambsno said:
Why oh why do people think that if you criticise immigration or say this issue it means u r racist? It was the same over gay marriages despite some gay people actually being opposed to it (my old boss for example) does that make him homophobic?

If it was kosher rather than halal I would imagine the same people would also be against it.
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Your "old boss". Ageist!
 
cambsno said:
Why oh why do people think that if you criticise immigration or say this issue it means u r racist? It was the same over gay marriages despite some gay people actually being opposed to it (my old boss for example) does that make him homophobic?

If it was kosher rather than halal I would imagine the same people would also be against it.
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Are you against kosher slaughter? I really hope you are.
 
Ricardodaforce said:
Animal welfare? That animal is raised to be killed for your benefit. Where's the welfare in that? So there may be a degree of difference in suffering depending on how it is killed, but all talk of welfare goes out of the window when it is killed for your consumption. If you REALLY care about animal welfare then don't eat them.
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and? I've got no issue with animals being bred for consumption.

I take it you don't eat any sort of meat including fish (and other sea based animals) or use any sort of dairy product then
 
cambsno said:
Why oh why do people think that if you criticise immigration or say this issue it means u r racist? It was the same over gay marriages despite some gay people actually being opposed to it (my old boss for example) does that make him homophobic?

If it was kosher rather than halal I would imagine the same people would also be against it.
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does it make your old boss homophobic (irrationally scared of gays?) no, it does make him an ass though :lol:
 
POAH said:
and? I've got no issue with animals being bred for consumption.

I take it you don't eat any sort of meat including fish (and other sea based animals) or use any sort of dairy product then
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Have a read of the thread.
 
Some interesting issues about labelling here. At least part of the controversy seems to have arisen from the fact that suppliers aren't necessarily going out of their way to label Halal meat as such.

I think @gramps articulated it well:
gramps said:
We live in an age where many people are concerned about what they eat, (I know equally many aren't and if it fits in their mouth they will eat it), some want to know if it's 'organic', others if it's 'free range', still others want to know about animal welfare if it is an animal product, or some other provenance.

For some people halal slaughter would be unacceptable for their perceived view of the animals welfare, for others it would be unacceptable as it has been killed in a form of religious ritual that they would find objectionable.
For most people, they think that they are aware of the 'normal' process of slaughter and the halal process is not what they consider to be the normal way, hence 'different' ... they may or may not have concerns about that.
Just because you or I have no concerns, does not IMO, affect the fact that such a process should be clearly indicated in order for those who do find the process unacceptable to make an informed choice.

For me, it all comes down to, not whether it's a Muslim, Jewish or whatever thing, it's a case of being able to make an informed choice over what you eat and having a clear understanding of the provenance of that product.
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Sounds quite reasonable.

Except that labelling something as Halal / non-Halal - as some people, though not necessarily @gramps, are suggesting - isn't helpful, for two reasons.

Firstly it's pandering to the closet racists who would equate Halal=wrong and non-Halal=right without really understanding the issue. But secondly it doesn't really provide much information. What does "non-Halal" actually mean? If you're interested in the provenance of your food, does it help? No.

The logical and non-discriminatory solution is the one advocated by the Muslim Council.
acetone said:
Love the Muslim Council reply

They wrote: "Consumers should be informed whether an animal has been mechanically stunned before being slaughtered and whether it has endured repeat stuns if the first attempt was ineffective.

"They should also be told the method of slaughter: captive bolt shooting, gassing, electrocution, drowning, trapping, clubbing or any of the other approved methods."
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Mmmm. How many of us really want to be confronted with that every time we go to the supermarket? To be honest I'm not sure I would. But it's the logical solution.
 
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No one needs to know if meat is not halal or kosher. Only Jews and Muslims need to know if it is, so they know that they are permitted to eat it.
Stores and supermarkets mark ready meals as halal or kosher or vegan or contain nuts so that those who need to know...know.
If you simply have a preference or an aversion ... ask, or make your purchases from a known butcher or specialist store.
 
Ricardodaforce said:
I'm honest here. I care about the meat I eat and how much I enjoy it. I don't cry crocodile tears about the methods used to get that meat as I tuck into a good steak. I don't look at my shoes, belt or wallet and softly sigh as I think to myself "I do hope the animal died a nice death so I could benefit from its skin".
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Its not about it dying a nice death so you can benefit from it, there is no reason to be excessively cruel just so you can eat it or wear it though surely?? These animals are bred for food etc they are here for one purpose only so its not about animal welfare in the same way as a pet where you should love it etc
but doesn't mean it should be treated with care along the process and dealt with humanely.
Rabbits for example are bred for their fur for clothing, they are skinned alive then tossed to die slowly, not killed. Are you serious in saying that you condone that practice just so you can wear it??
Would you be happy if the leather you wore was obtained in the same way, would you still it wear it?

I'm guessing in fact you probably would, because its far easier to be ignorant about such things and put it out of your mind. As long as you don't know about it you don't have to care and thats where the issue arises for most. They are more than happy to eat meat but can't face how its obtained it just appears in the supermarket.
 
Terrywoodenpic said:
Morrison's say they select, slaughter and butcher all their own fresh meat.
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Morrisons have there own buyers at UK Livestock Auctions, have their own fleet of livestock transporters, have their own abattoir and their own refrigerated transport fleet for distribution to their stores.

None of the others have that level of control on where their meat comes from or how it is selected and delivered for sale.
 
StewartR said:
The logical and non-discriminatory solution is the one advocated by the Muslim Council.
Mmmm. How many of us really want to be confronted with that every time we go to the supermarket? To be honest I'm not sure I would. But it's the logical solution.
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Nope. And people didn't really want to be reminded that they were buying battery eggs when the "eggs from caged hens" label came in. Which was kind of the point ;)

I think the issue here is one of branding.

Animals killed Muslim style are called "halal". If the Rabbi gets to call the shots then it's "kosher". But what about stuff that's neither halal nor kosher? AFAIK it's just dead. And I can't honestly see a supermarket labelling meat as "dead". Until they can create a brand for "not doing what Jews or Muslims say" they are stuck because they ain't going to label it "not-kosher / not-halal". And it looks very like both kosher and halal are supersets of "dead" - they really should be.

BTW I'm probably the only person here who hasn't looked this up on Wikipedia - is there an overlap between kosher and halal? Could a piece of meat be both?
 
I don't know about Halal but I don't believe the Koshe method involves any prayers (but I could be wrong). But anyway, this is an extract from a Daily Telegraph from the other day

Under both the Muslim method of slaughter, known as Zabiha, and the Jewish practice, known as Shechita, a surgically sharp instrument is used to cut straight through an animal’s throat, windpipe and the blood vessels in its neck killing it instantly.

Under Islamic rules animals can be stunned before the procedure. The vast majority of halal meat comes from animals that were pre-stunned.

Shechita prohibits pre-stunning, with Jewish leaders saying that the act of cutting the animal’s neck renders it “insensible to pain” and has the same effect as mechanical stunning.
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Full article HERE

Given that the Jewish/Muslim methods both rely on he animal being in good health and death coming about as quick as possible at the time of slaughter (so that the blood leaves the body as soon as possible) and, given some of the stories that come out of non-religeous abbatoirs, I'm quite frankly amazed at some of the outrage being shown towards the idea of eating halal meat.
 
fracster said:
Morrisons have there own buyers at UK Livestock Auctions, have their own fleet of livestock transporters, have their own abattoir and their own refrigerated transport fleet for distribution to their stores.

None of the others have that level of control on where their meat comes from or how it is selected and delivered for sale.
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They may have all there own control, but that doesn't necessarily make it better than the rest if their standards are lower than others, and none of that stops them from producing halal meat if they wish.

I can have total control over my photos, but David Bailey still makes a better product.
 
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acetone said:
They may have all there own control, but that doesn't necessarily make it better than the rest if their standards are lower than others, and none of that stops them from producing halal meat if they wish.

I can have total control over my photos, but David Bailey still makes a better product.
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I was making the point that Morrisons have more control over their meat than pretty much all other supermarkets. I made no comments on their quality,practices or whether they produce Halal meat.

Your David Bailey comment is asinine in the extreme.
 
fracster said:
Morrisons have there own buyers at UK Livestock Auctions, have their own fleet of livestock transporters, have their own abattoir and their own refrigerated transport fleet for distribution to their stores.

None of the others have that level of control on where their meat comes from or how it is selected and delivered for sale.
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Then don't but meat from a supermarket. Find a local butcher that produces quality product and if you're lucky will also do similar to above.

We have
Jessie Smith - Cirencester - http://www.jessesmithbutchers.co.uk/c_shop.htm
Crumps - Royal Wootton Bassett - http://www.crumpbutchers.co.uk/
Andrews - Marlborough - http://www.andrewsqualitymeatsltd.co.uk/

All 20-30 mins away, but I'm serious about my meat and where it's sourced so don't buy very much at supermarkets at all.
 
JonathanRyan said:
BTW I'm probably the only person here who hasn't looked this up on Wikipedia - is there an overlap between kosher and halal? Could a piece of meat be both?
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there's virtually no practical difference between halal practices and shechita (kosher slaughter) , but a piece of meat couldn't be both because Halal requires the slaughter to be carried out by a muslim, while shechita requires it to be carried out by a devout jew.
 
fabs said:
I don't know about Halal but I don't believe the Koshe method involves any prayers (but I could be wrong). But anyway, this is an extract from a Daily Telegraph from the other day



Full article HERE

Given that the Jewish/Muslim methods both rely on he animal being in good health and death coming about as quick as possible at the time of slaughter (so that the blood leaves the body as soon as possible) and, given some of the stories that come out of non-religeous abbatoirs, I'm quite frankly amazed at some of the outrage being shown towards the idea of eating halal meat.
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It is worth pointing out that Shechita and Halal butchery were designed to be the most humane and hygenic methods possible at the time. I don't know to what extent that still holds, but given the appalling practices of modern industrial farming and slaughter, I don't think the argument against is quite so clear cut! Here's a Guardian article that dares to touch on the other possible background to the controversy ...

http://www.theguardian.com/commenti...oncern-animal-welfare-muslim-ritual-slaughter

Furthermore I like animals, and I like animal welfare but I dislike and totally distrust the RSPCA and PETA, for example, so that I'm more willing to believe a Rabbi or a Shochet or an Imam on the subject [or Temple Grandin!] rather than them!

JonathanRyan said:
BTW I'm probably the only person here who hasn't looked this up on Wikipedia - is there an overlap between kosher and halal? Could a piece of meat be both?
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The slaughtering methods are the same so I believe that all kosher meat is religiously deemed to be halal as well. Of course there might be Muslims who would object politically in the same way that I heard comedy Catholics on a phone-in yesterday, complaining that they didn't want their dinner prayed over to Mohammed [they didn't say PBUH!]! My understanding is that all three Abrahamic religions believe in the same deity and that both Mohammed and Jesus report prayer upwards to the same ultimate boss!
 
Yves Geza said:
The slaughtering methods are the same so I believe that all kosher meat is religiously deemed to be halal as well. !
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is the same true in reverse jon ? - ie would a Jew be able to eat halal meat while still keeping kosher ?

that aside as I said earlier I don't have a problem with slaughter by cutting arteries, veins and wind pipe with a razor sharp knife - its no less humane than stunning, electrocuting or drowning , and those of us that eat meat have to accept the unpleasant truth that there is no 100% humane way of killing an animal that renders its meat fit for consumption (a bullet in the head from a scope deer rifle shot by an expert from a distance probably comes closest, but that isn't practical on a large scale)

when pets are put down the vet usually uses barbiturates , which is 100% humane as the animal just goes to sleep - but this method is no good for food , as the barbiturate also renders the meat unsafe to eat
 
big soft moose said:
is the same true in reverse jon ? - ie would a Jew be able to eat halal meat while still keeping kosher ?
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I believe not in ultra orthodoxy. The oldest version of the book doesn't yet really acknowledge its two young heresies! ;)
It's strange if it's too soon because as an aside, something I like about Judaism is how it tries to reinterpret and adapt the word of God in an ever changing world. For example, when there was an Israeli astronaut, a conference of Rabbis met to discuss when he should celebrate the Sabbath ... when exactly does the sun set on a Friday evening if you're in a rocket orbiting the earth! :D Apparently Islam conferences do the same.

By the way, you also have to remember that both Judaism and Islam are codes of practice for living which take an absolute view against starving yourself to death! For example, whether it's Yom Kippur or Ramadan, both say that the very young and the weak and the sick should not fast but need to keep up their strength and i believe that Islam says that Muslims should eat non Halal meat if there's absolutely no alternative.
 
We may well live to regret our apathy.

So much more than meets the eye here....so much more.
 
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