Do you eat halal meat?

Ricardodaforce said:
I must say I am impressed that you got hold of a copy of the executive summary of their planning and strategy document. Where did you get it? Their website, a share-holder meeting? Other source? What else influences their "business model" or is it solely based on appeasing the Muslim population?
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I don't know if the 4% is true but it was in an earlier report in this thread. So why use halal meat if just 4% want it. Is it cheaper? Just from a business point of view would you adapt your business for just 4% when it is mainstream?
 
gramps said:
Why is Muslim and Islamist interchangeable with 'terrorist' other than in the minds of the bigot or the mis-informed?
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On Radio 4 now apparently :(

I was shocked because IIRC "Islamist" was a word basically made up by the BBC to distance extremists from Muslims. Of course at no point did they say "Muslims are terrorists" but it would be easy to get that impression. (Actually at one point they had to point out the "obviously not all converts are terrorists".)

One of the articles was about a police operation to "look into" people converting to Islam (it really wasn't very clear what they were doing about it but there is clearly some sort of operation going on). This was based on the observation that many of the Islamic Fundamentalist terrorists they have captured have been converts. It seems somebody thinks that's a symmetrical relationship ("most terrorists are converts therefore most converts are terrorists"). I don't remember a serious investigation into people converting to Catholicism when there was all that fuss with the IRA.

Probably the best comment on this came from Aaron Sorkin:

Islam is to Islamic Extremism as Christianity is to the KKK
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But that doesn't sell papers.
 
boyfalldown said:
That assumes they are using separate sources for food in restaurants in some areas. I'm going to bet thats not the case. By not declaring your menu as Kosher as well you exclude Jews anyway, but what other religion would
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One report said Sikh, but I am not sure. I was only aware of kosher and halal.
 
fracster said:
Having first hand experience of working in an abattoir ,many years ago,where a certain amount of animals were killed by the Halal method, I assure you that you are incorrect Neil.
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acetone said:
I think things may have change huge amounts between the practices at abattoirs nowadays from many years ago.

As I'm lead to believe the only real diffrence between the vast amount of hala meat and normal meat is a pray is said while killing/stunning the animal.
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i think also that its only recent years that EU rules have been updated (i dont have a source to hand).

Keith W said:
The animal has to be alive when it's throat is cut, it then bleeds to death

All stunning does is subdue the animal and makes it easier for the throat to be cut, also only some abattoirs stun the animal first before cutting its throat
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yup, and from what i understand chickens are stunned before having their heads removed and/or thrown into boiling water. im not sure how that differs to stunning then slitting the throat in some peoples eyes.

cambsno said:
Well, I for one will not be frequenting either place again. With subway, it isn't just the halal thing, it's the lack of ham and bacon too. With pizza express, if they are not ashamed about it why not make it more public beforehand? Not sure on the reason behind it tbh as whenever I have been in pizza express (and we used to go a lot), I rarely saw any Muslims in it so really baffled by this as it doesn't seem to be from customer pressure?
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as someone else said, subway have adopted the no pork policy in a fraction of their stores (i seem to recall it was less than 10%). perhaps it is supply and demand in those store areas. would that be so hard to believe that a profit driven company changes some of their stores to accommodate the bulk of the customers in a particular area? no. nothing new.

as for pizza express it may be a cost thing. maybe the most cost effective option was to buy halal meat. it may not have anything to do with religion.

mountain out of a molehill.

(that was hard work without multi-quote by the way)
 
no matter how you look at it it is a religious thing, halal is brought about my a Muslim belief. As the UK is predominately christian you can understand why people are not happy when things are changed to please a minority. Other countries tend to follow and cater for their minority, Britain is too busy pleasing everyone else than to have its own identity!!
 
I gave up trusting supermarket meat some time ago. They are only interested in chasing profits, nothing else, so will buy from the cheapest supplier. Almost everything else they say is marketing.

Support your local butcher. I use two local butchers, went to one on saturday, had aged t-bone steaks, cut to the size I want. Both butchers only use local meat, Andrews in Marlborough has his own staff at the local abattoir and selects the best animals, so only the butcher touches the animals throughout the chain from when it comes into the abattoir.
You pay more than supermarket meat, but the flavour is better, it's butchered better and you have less wastage. You don't find a ton of skin or fat hidden under the meat in the cellophane wrapped product.

So it's a non issue really. The papers have an agenda to sell papers so will put a slant on a story, especially the rags recognising the rise of UKIP and their views etc.
The supermarkets will make as much profit as possible and cut corners etc where they can get away with it.

Which leaves discerning customers to vote with their feet and take their purchases elsewhere. It takes time and a little effort but the results are significantly better in the quality of food
Trouble is - most people are sheep, 1 hour in the supermarket, stock up for the week - job done, or worse - get it delivered so they have no contact with what they are buying other than to put it on their shelves, that's if it's not outsourced further to takeaways.

This country long ago lost any contact with food. Go to French local town markets, or Italy and see the quality. Even in the supermarkets the French are fussy consumers. Here the majority see it as a chore.

So don't moan, do your research. There's plenty of good sources of food out there, they just may not fit your terms of convenience.
 
pitkin2020 said:
As the UK is predominately christian ...
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Is it? about 6% of the population go to church, and in the 2011 census around 25% of the population said they had no religion. Whilst 33 million registered as christian,(around 50%), I'd like to suggest that that was out of habit or convention to put that rather than what their actual religious beliefs were.
 
pitkin2020 said:
no matter how you look at it it is a religious thing, halal is brought about my a Muslim belief. As the UK is predominately christian you can understand why people are not happy when things are changed to please a minority. Other countries tend to follow and cater for their minority, Britain is too busy pleasing everyone else than to have its own identity!!
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Srsly?

So if wheat intolerance were a religious thing then the gluten free aisle would be pandering to a religious minority? How about all these non dairy "milks" they make now? Pretty sure there's something in Judaism about not cooking meat in milk - so that's clearly a religious thing. Let's not even start on the fact that the Polish section at Tescos is bigger than the vegetarian one.

No, it's because they sell more stuff and/or it costs them less to do it. This isn't about religion - it's about economics. Mainly about the economics of getting people to pay for "news".
 
pitkin2020 said:
Other countries tend to follow and cater for their minority, Britain is too busy pleasing everyone else than to have its own identity!!
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Can you clarify what you mean by "Other countries tend to follow and cater for their minority" and when you say "Britain is too busy pleasing everyone else than to have its own identity", what "identity" has Britain lost?
 
Byker28i said:
Is it? about 6% of the population go to church, and in the 2011 census around 25% of the population said they had no religion. Whilst 33 million registered as christian,(around 50%), I'd like to suggest that that was out of habit or convention to put that rather than what their actual religious beliefs were.
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As you've just said 50% registered as christian, 25% as non religious and that leaves 25% for everything else, so yeah predominately the UK is Christian based. Just because a small minority go to church doesn't make those that don't any less christian. Thats like saying your not a football fan if you don't go to the matches!!

JonathanRyan said:
Srsly?

So if wheat intolerance were a religious thing then the gluten free aisle would be pandering to a religious minority? How about all these non dairy "milks" they make now? Pretty sure there's something in Judaism about not cooking meat in milk - so that's clearly a religious thing. Let's not even start on the fact that the Polish section at Tescos is bigger than the vegetarian one.

No, it's because they sell more stuff and/or it costs them less to do it. This isn't about religion - it's about economics. Mainly about the economics of getting people to pay for "news".
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Where has it been stated that halal meat is cheaper to produce??

Wheat intolerance is totally different it has nothing to do with anyone beliefs on how it is produced though, there is no inhumane way to produce wheat it doesn't suffer.
Polish sector again is about economics they are providing for a market, which also non polish do buy from.

The point about religion was more aimed at the subway removing pork/ham than anything else, how is that down to economics and not religion................
 
JonathanRyan said:
This isn't about religion - it's about economics. Mainly about the economics of getting people to pay for "news".
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I think that is a bit disingenuous, it's surely about people's right to know what they are eating - you may scoff at the Daily Mail or whatever media but it doesn't take away the fact that people are not being made aware of aspects of their food preparation that they may find unacceptable. We have labeling for fat, salt, sugar, nuts, vegetarian-friendly - all consumer information issues, so why not this?
 
pitkin2020 said:
Where has it been stated that halal meat is cheaper to produce??
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It hasn't. And I'm not suggesting it is. Simply that most big businesses do very little for reasons other than money.

If you want an argument it's cheaper (and remember I'm just making this up) then it's obviously cheaper to produce halal meat than it is to produce halal non-halal and keep them separate through the supply chain. Especially if the difference is actually important to some people.
 
pitkin2020 said:
Where has it been stated that halal meat is cheaper to produce??
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boyfalldown said:
It strikes me that this is purely a business decision. Far easier to make your products acceptable to all who may buy. Specially as there can be no real objection from those without the requirement. Surely its better to keep costs down by only producing one way.
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not rocket science. Is it?
 
gramps said:
I think that is a bit disingenuous, it's surely about people's right to know what they are eating - you may scoff at the Daily Mail or whatever media but it doesn't take away the fact that people are not being made aware of aspects of their food preparation that they may find unacceptable. We have labeling for fat, salt, sugar, nuts, vegetarian-friendly - all consumer information issues, so why not this?
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Really, the people have a right to know what goes on in slaughter houses - but I suspect only a small minority actually want to exercise that right. In fact, Animal Aid have been campaigning for years to put CCTV in slaughter houses so we can know exactly what goes on there.

According to the Waitrose site, the only real difference between their non halal slaughter and their halal kind is a prayer that's said over the dying animal. I can't see that it's important to label a package with the words spoken at the time.
 
JonathanRyan said:
It hasn't. And I'm not suggesting it is. Simply that most big businesses do very little for reasons other than money.

If you want an argument it's cheaper (and remember I'm just making this up) then it's obviously cheaper to produce halal meat than it is to produce halal non-halal and keep them separate through the supply chain. Especially if the difference is actually important to some people.
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Is it though?? You target your business for the market your selling in, I know the subway thing has been blown well out of proportion and it is very much a small percentage of their stores that have changed, and I would hazard a guess the areas that they have made the change have a high muslim population.

People are very keen now to know what they are eating and where it comes from, when you believe or atleast think you are eating one thing to find out it was prepared differently how to you expected some people will feel deceived or the right of choice taken away from them. Look at the horse meat scandal not so long ago, its certainly making people question what they are eating more.

Personally I couldn't care less how the meat is prepared as long as the suffering caused was the minimum amount it could possibly be. What I don't agree with though is removing something that a lot of people eat because of the religious aspect (pork/bacon/ham etc), if thats your belief and you don't want to eat it fine but others shouldn't have to stop because of it. Again I don't care what your religious outlook is it but by the same token I don't want your beliefs forced upon me, same as I wouldn't force mine upon you, everyone has the right to be what they want without causing issues to others
 
boyfalldown said:
maybe you could present a reasoned argument why I'm wrong? BTW its always been presented as an opinion
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Did i say you were wrong, unless they publicly say "we pay less for halal meat" its just an opinion

JonathanRyan said:
Really, the people have a right to know what goes on in slaughter houses - but I suspect only a small minority actually want to exercise that right. In fact, Animal Aid have been campaigning for years to put CCTV in slaughter houses so we can know exactly what goes on there.

According to the Waitrose site, the only real difference between their non halal slaughter and their halal kind is a prayer that's said over the dying animal. I can't see that it's important to label a package with the words spoken at the time.
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As someone said earlier you never REALLY know everything about your food, it would be impossible.

Halal or non halal, as you say there really is no difference other than the prayer but im sure if waitrose pulled all pork products from the shelves because of they only wanted to stock halal meat people would rightly be angry about it.
 
JonathanRyan said:
According to the Waitrose site, the only real difference between their non halal slaughter and their halal kind is a prayer that's said over the dying animal. I can't see that it's important to label a package with the words spoken at the time.
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and you believe that they know everything that goes on in their supply chain ... even after previous events?
For many people it has nothing to do with the 'prayer', it is a matter of animal welfare and making a personal decision - for others it could well be that the 'prayer' is an issue.
 
pitkin2020 said:
im sure if waitrose pulled all pork products from the shelves because of they only wanted to stock halal meat people would rightly be angry about it.
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Yes of course. Just the same way as if they only sold fish on Fridays as a sop to the Catholics. Or if they stopped selling lobster to avoid offending Jewish people.

I wonder why we imagine things that Muslims might like and then get angry about them but don't treat other religions the same way?
 
gramps said:
and you believe that they know everything that goes on in their supply chain ... even after previous events?
For many people it has nothing to do with the 'prayer', it is a matter of animal welfare and making a personal decision - for others it could well be that the 'prayer' is an issue.
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If it's animal welfare that concerns you then don't eat meat. I haven't for at least 20 years for exactly these reasons. But if you are going to then I'd suggest stunning makes more of a difference than a prayer.
 
Whether you mind eating it or not is not the point. You should have the right to decide. I wouldn't mind eating horse meat, no doubt I have, but I want to be able to choose.
 
Raptor Mike said:
Whether you mind eating it or not is not the point. You should have the right to decide.
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OK. That's fine.

I hate to break it to you, but you don't currently have that right at the moment (or rather the law doesn't say that the vendor has to give you enough information to make an informed choice) . You can campaign for the law to be changed so you have that right if you like. You can apply social pressure on the vendors to voluntarily give you enough information to exercise the choice you'd like to have. Or you can choose to shop elsewhere. But those are basically your options. And none of them are to do with Islamic fundamentalists no matter how the red tops spin it.
 
BTW I happened to Google up "meat glue" last night (don't ask). That's your next food scandal right there.
 
pitkin2020 said:
Personally I couldn't care less how the meat is prepared as long as the suffering caused was the minimum amount it could possibly be.
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Does that really matter? At the end of the day the animal is killed so you can eat it. Surely any talk of the animal's welfare is reduced to meaningless waffle the moment parts of it enter your mouth.
 
really, what difference does it make whether an animal is stunned and shot/decapitated/throat slit/thrown under a bus to whether anyone wants to eat it?

(obviously the bus option might make it a bit gritty)
 
eeyore said:
I avoid it where I can TBH.
Having found a really good butchers near me (6miles away!) I should be cutting all supermarket meat out :)
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So does your butcher confirm with the abattoir how his meat is killed before he buys it ?
 
neil_g said:
really, what difference does it make whether an animal is stunned and shot/decapitated/throat slit/thrown under a bus to whether anyone wants to eat it?

(obviously the bus option might make it a bit gritty)
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It might be gritty but should have a good tenderising effect, I understand its a requirement to get that third Michelin Star :D
 
neil_g said:
really, what difference does it make whether an animal is stunned and shot/decapitated/throat slit/thrown under a bus to whether anyone wants to eat it?

(obviously the bus option might make it a bit gritty)
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Animals killed by buses aren't kosher (I looked it up).
 
pitkin2020 said:
As you've just said 50% registered as christian, 25% as non religious and that leaves 25% for everything else, so yeah predominately the UK is Christian based. Just because a small minority go to church doesn't make those that don't any less christian. Thats like saying your not a football fan if you don't go to the matches!!
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That's a bit of a poor analogy as football fans may avidly follow their team, watch on tv, read the reports. That's probably pushing it a bit for christianity in the uk. I was brought up attending sunday school, brought up with the morals the church taught, but I doubt I'd escribe my religion as Christian, more uninterested, although I find my self drawn to Buddhism every time I travel east.
 
Byker28i said:
That's a bit of a poor analogy as football fans may avidly follow their team, watch on tv, read the reports. That's probably pushing it a bit for christianity in the uk. I was brought up attending sunday school, brought up with the morals the church taught, but I doubt I'd escribe my religion as Christian, more uninterested, although I find my self drawn to Buddhism every time I travel east.
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im actually quite offended at his suggestion i am christian...
 
JonathanRyan said:
Really, the people have a right to know what goes on in slaughter houses
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Do they? And where's that "right" written down?

I do believe that the vast majority of people just don't care.
An article, or articles, like this will emerge now and again, and a small but very vocal minority will get all prickly about it for a while, but after a short time it'll all die down and nothing will really have changed.
 
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