Do I "need" 18 volts?

JonathanRyan said:
Yeah so I just bought a second hand Festool CXS for £100. Everybody please tell me it was a good idea!!!
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Looking at your original thread when you said you wanted a drill for when you didn't want to bring your electric SDS out, I think this drill maybe a little lightweight for your needs.............. but only you can answer this.

I have the Bosch 10.8v driver and for driving screws into worktops, door hinges, fixing screws after drilling pilot holes etc.................... you cant fault it and it has probably been my most used tool over the last ten years or so. >http://www.dm-tools.co.uk/product.php/section/7902/sn/BSHGSR108LiN#.VVb_y0YqPYg

I expect the Festool to be along these lines of the Bosch I have, but maybe wrong. Still an excellent addition to your tool kit though.
 
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I had a play with one of those festools at a trade show. It was certainly a cut above my bosch 10.8V (although a fair bit more bulky) so may well do the job pretty well. However I think Simon is right that it is more of a "always in the toolbag" drill rather than a "do anything" drill.
That said, I think Simon and I are talking about kit needed for trade use, for DIY it will probably do 90% of what you need.
A tip for using drill/drivers for masonary etc - get some Bosch Multconstruction drill bits. http://www.amazon.co.uk/Bosch-Multi-Construction-Drill-Bits-7-Piece/dp/B001L1RAYQ
I find them better than normal masonary bits for use without hammer action. Oh, and resharpen them regularly ;)
 
Swanseajack said:
I have never used Bosch cordless drills apart from the 10.8v little cordless driver, which for me was a god send when doing kitchens, nice and light could drive a 40mm screw in to fix worktops. My most used tool probably. My SDS was Bosch and my core drill. Excellent work horses and I prefered them to the Hilti's my father give me, which I sold. I must say though that an electrician friend of mine had the Bosch SDS, 36V I think and he sweared by it.
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I agree that the little 10.8V are a godsend, I just wish my Bosch was a little better built :(
I have a makita SDS and I have to admit that, with hindsight, I wish I had got a bosch. The Makita is excellent quality and very powerful but for some reason a bosch I used was much easier to use accurately - the hammer action on the makita is a bit all or nothing.
Swanseajack said:
As for batteries, I have never had a problem when most kits come with two, if needed, it was just a matter of a top up charge at lunchtime. Regarding volts vs amapage (amp hour). For some people they see 18 volts or 36 volts etc............ but they come with a 1.3ah battery. The type of thing you buy in Argos ect............. poor marriage and no good for repetitive work.
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Absolutely. On the other hand my father has a makita 18V 1.5Ah kit and, while it wouldn't last 5 minutes at work, he is very happy with it.
I think the main problem is that people see the £100 kits and think they will work as well as a £250 kit just that the batteries will not last as long. Not realising that the drill in the £250 kit will probably have at least twice the power of the one in the £100 kit.
I guess this is your point. My fathers 18V Makita 453 is better than my Bosch 10.8V. But not that much better. If I had it I would still need my 458 for real work and then be wondering why I had a relatively bulky 453 instead of a 10.8V drill for my toolbag.

Swanseajack said:
At the end of the day we all have our opinions on tools, just like we do on cameras. It's being educated and reviewing things for your needs.
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Indeed. you only have to read a trade forum and find a "what drill" thread to know it is just as bad as with Cameras :)
 
brman said:
I had a play with one of those festools at a trade show. It was certainly a cut above my bosch 10.8V (although a fair bit more bulky) so may well do the job pretty well. However I think Simon is right that it is more of a "always in the toolbag" drill rather than a "do anything" drill.
That said, I think Simon and I are talking about kit needed for trade use, for DIY it will probably do 90% of what you need.
A tip for using drill/drivers for masonary etc - get some Bosch Multconstruction drill bits. http://www.amazon.co.uk/Bosch-Multi-Construction-Drill-Bits-7-Piece/dp/B001L1RAYQ
I find them better than normal masonary bits for use without hammer action. Oh, and resharpen them regularly ;)
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Yes we have gone more onto Trade rather than DIY. As an example, when fitting skirtings and as I didnt have a concrete nail gun and prefered to drill and plug than gripfill, I would be using 3 drills. My SDS for Rawlplug, Panasonic for counter sinking and the little Bosch for screwing in the screws. And my Paslode for the externals if needed. All on a little mat which I used to slide around the rooms with me. I had a Dewalt 65 piece drill set with quick release with counter sinkers etc and it was just a matter of flipping the bits over, but I still prefered to use the two cordless with the relevant bits in place. Old habits I suppose.

You wouldn't expect people like the OP to have these available, just like a lot of people wouldn't have the camera kit that Jonathan has. Right tools for making your life easier if being used professionally.

It seems as if you have a possible friday afternoon job for your Bosch or the quality has dropped on newer ones????, I cant fault mine which is the original and which I have had when they first come out about 8-10 years ago. The batteries still hold fine and this little thing has had a hammering over the years.
 
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stevewestern said:
For £100 it is a bargain - does it come with any bits (spare battery, chuck, systainer etc ?)
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It's basically the kit you can get for about £200 - chuck + angled chuck and plastic box to put it in with charger and second battery.

It's a bit of a rash purchase probably as I still won't be able to drill into brick without getting the SDS out - but first job will be making some cupboard doors and fitting them with kitchen style hinges and I expect it to be great for that. If not, I can eBay it ;)
 
You MAY be able to drill into brick, depending on how hard it is, but if you decide to sell it on in the next day or two then let me know..!
I'm glad it came with all the bits, as they are what makes it a bargain and I had assumed it would have done.
My experience of them is limited but the one I saw in use was able to do most of what my new 18v makita could do in terms of screwing and drilling into wood and soft red brick/london stocks etc.
Just like cameras, there is the way they feel in the hand and the details such as the light I keep on banging on about that make them a pleasure to use, no matter how sad that sounds..!
 
Swanseajack said:
It seems as if you have a possible friday afternoon job for your Bosch or the quality has dropped on newer ones????, I cant fault mine which is the original and which I have had when they first come out about 8-10 years ago. The batteries still hold fine and this little thing has had a hammering over the years.
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I don't know if it was a temporary blip in quality or a general reduction over time but a google on "bosch chuck loose" shows I am not alone. Ditto dust in the trigger causing it to become intermittent. I keep on meaning to get it sorted (it is well within warranty) but just got used to tightening it every hole and giving it a bash if the trigger plays up.....
 
OK, lets be sensible about this, if a DIY job, go to your local Hardware store and by a Draper (about £20) if it fails after 2 years buy another and another etc. in 10 years and 5 Drills later probably
will still be cheaper than 0ne Festool, Bosch, etc and maybe the 1st one is still working OK

Problem solved.
 
stevewestern said:
You MAY be able to drill into brick, depending on how hard it is, but if you decide to sell it on in the next day or two then let me know..!
I'm glad it came with all the bits, as they are what makes it a bargain and I had assumed it would have done.
My experience of them is limited but the one I saw in use was able to do most of what my new 18v makita could do in terms of screwing and drilling into wood and soft red brick/london stocks etc.
Just like cameras, there is the way they feel in the hand and the details such as the light I keep on banging on about that make them a pleasure to use, no matter how sad that sounds..!
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The light on my Panasonics battery area was a factor for me along with being able to alter the speed / torque of the impact driver. Small things which made my life easier, so your not on your own.
 
stryvya said:
OK, lets be sensible about this, if a DIY job, go to your local Hardware store and by a Draper (about £20) if it fails after 2 years buy another and another etc. in 10 years and 5 Drills later probably
will still be cheaper than 0ne Festool, Bosch, etc and maybe the 1st one is still working OK

Problem solved.
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True. I used a cheap ryobi for 10 years. It worked. It was only when I got my makita that I realised how crap it was though. Barely drilling a 8mm hole in normal brick, 20mm spade into a joist and it gave up after about 10 holes. If that is good enough for you then fine but I found it a pain the backside,even for DIY stuff.
There are some times where cheap is ok (I have a 240V worx multitool from argos that has lasted 3 years of trade use) but I have yet to find a cheap drill that cuts the mustard....
 
stryvya said:
OK, lets be sensible about this, if a DIY job, go to your local Hardware store and by a Draper (about £20) if it fails after 2 years buy another and another etc. in 10 years and 5 Drills later probably
will still be cheaper than 0ne Festool, Bosch, etc and maybe the 1st one is still working OK

Problem solved.
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Isn't that a bit like cameras for the majority of people on here? Shall we all go and buy disposable cameras and ditch our Nikon, Canon, Fuji DSLR's and CSC etc............ at the end of the day the disposable takes a photo. Somehow I can't see us dumping our cameras, although it's a similar situation.
 
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Swanseajack said:
The light on my Panasonics battery area was a factor for me along with being able to alter the speed / torque of the impact driver. Small things which made my life easier, so your not on your own.
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When I got my Makita I was coming from a 12-15 year old DeWalt so had no idea about the light and had I got the Panasonic you have I may have found more use for my impact driver which has only been used a handful of times as it is just too brutal and noisy for most of my work.

Its good to know I am not alone - buying a Festool dust extractor seemed like a ridiculous thing when I already had a Henry for work use but it has changed the way I work and helped me justify putting up my prices as well as making my life a lot easier and maybe healthier.


AND, will this thread about cordless tools on a photography forum make it to 4 pages..?
 
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stryvya said:
OK, lets be sensible about this, if a DIY job, go to your local Hardware store and by a Draper (about £20) if it fails after 2 years buy another and another etc. in 10 years and 5 Drills later probably
will still be cheaper than 0ne Festool, Bosch, etc and maybe the 1st one is still working OK

Problem solved.
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OR....buy a decent quality item second hand. Enjoy using it for a few years and then sell it for what you paid for it. Problem also solved ;)
 
stryvya said:
OK, lets be sensible about this, if a DIY job, go to your local Hardware store and by a Draper (about £20) if it fails after 2 years buy another and another etc. in 10 years and 5 Drills later probably
will still be cheaper than 0ne Festool, Bosch, etc and maybe the 1st one is still working OK

Problem solved.
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If a cheap tool does the job you want it to then fine, and you have a fair point about buying 5 cheap may make sense but there is a difference in what a quality tool can do over a cheaper one to some extent.
Any car can get you from A to B but in a quality car you may be safer and arrive feeling less tired or stressed..

There is also the notion that DIY is meant to have some pleasure attached to it, and struggling with a tool that makes hard work of it doesn't seem to help..
 
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I think that proves a point brman !

I love the fact that when he starts the 'real man' stuff at about 7.30 mins he dons his gloves that have clearly seem many a happy hour's hard work..
 
Re volts versus torque, my first cordless drill/driver (about 13 years ago) was a 9v NiCd AEG. Small by today's standards but it had so much torque it would rip itself out of my hand. I used to use it to drive lag bolts into walls and had to change my grip to keep my thumb out of the way, if the bolt jammed the drill would spin away and nearly broke my thumb a couple of times. In the end I couldn't get batteries for it any more and graduated to a 12v Hitachi which was ok but had nothing like the same torque. Now I use an 18v Makita which has a good combination of staying power and torque.
 
Is this a bad time to mention that I might "need" a new jigsaw.....?
 
Funny you should mention jigsaws Jonathan - Festool make a good one........................

http://www.ffx.co.uk/tools/product/...9SlmEXVf6_PZ1C_vFlib70dOh_IWdC_vFSxoCKKPw_wcB


If you are really after one rather than just trying to get this thread onto its 4th page then a good one is way better at cutting straight, but as before, good blades are essential.
I use an old but solid and heavy Bosch but it get little use as I have a trach saw and mitre saw that do most of what I need.
What do you use it for ?
 
I have a Bosch screwdriver. Am I right in thinking an impact driver is similar (ie deals with screws) but has the power to screw through wood where the Bosch can't?
 
An impact driver is like the tools mechanics use to remove car wheels - so hammers screws in. They are very noisy and great for first fix but a bit ott for smaller work.
 
stevewestern said:
Funny you should mention jigsaws Jonathan - Festool make a good one........................

http://www.ffx.co.uk/tools/product/Festool Ps 420 Ebq Set 4014549186695 240V Carvex Pendulum Jigsaw 550W?gclid=CjwKEAjwm-aqBRD39YPqhbzthzYSJACFj-AtbnHTGBe9SlmEXVf6_PZ1C_vFlib70dOh_IWdC_vFSxoCKKPw_wcB


If you are really after one rather than just trying to get this thread onto its 4th page then a good one is way better at cutting straight, but as before, good blades are essential.
I use an old but solid and heavy Bosch but it get little use as I have a trach saw and mitre saw that do most of what I need.
What do you use it for ?
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I almost certainly don't need one - and I certainly don't need a Festool! I have an old cheap jigsaw. I always thought I was rubbish at using it until I lent it to a builder who was doing some work for me. He told me that on this occasion it was OK to blame the tools :D

I'm going to be fitting some of this

http://www.kitchen-surplus.co.uk/in...=329761y64s2q537d334or661nt534915&portrelay=1

Instructions say to use a jigsaw to get clean cuts - and I know I won’t get clean cuts with mine. But I bet my laminate saw will go straight through it. If not, I'll be asking which jigsaw to buy :)
 
omens said:
I have a Bosch screwdriver. Am I right in thinking an impact driver is similar (ie deals with screws) but has the power to screw through wood where the Bosch can't?
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That's exactly the mistake I made on page 1 of this thread ;) Thanks to all the help here I now know I don't really need one.
 
As long as you get a decent make it doesn't matter a great deal which jigsaw to get.
The problems start as soon as the blade starts to go blunt- the cut tends to lean ie not vertical and the cut gets difficult to stay in a straight line.
I use a Festool, but at a couple of hundred pounds probably isn't worth it.
Screwfix have a couple of Hitachi jigsaws on offer for about £100.

For ease of use with thicker materials you are looking at about 700w to 750w, any less and it will struggle- blades will blunt, blade wander, overheat, all of which can be potentially dangerous.
 
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Only 11 posts to go though!
 
I've never had one.
Jigsaw, circular saw, reciprocating saw, chop saw, hand saws, pad saw, mitre saw, hack saw, junior hack saw, hole saws...
 
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kendo1 said:
I've never had one.
Jigsaw, circular saw, reciprocating saw, chop saw, hand saws, pad saw, mitre saw, hack saw, junior hack saw, hole saws...
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No mention of cold sores there - led a sheltered life or has mine been a little too wild ?
 
Thought I would chip in again to keep the thread running!

I used to fit for Floors2go and local suppliers and I used to have a Guilitine laminate cutter which I used to slide around the floor with me, I think it was made by Karlton as I also had there door trimmer. Could also have been Roberts as I had there Jam Saw before I started to use Fein for cutting out door jams.. Anyway excellent kits if using a lot like I was. I think I paid around £150 for it as this is going back about 10 years.

It seems they have been copied now and it was something like this > https://www.machinemart.co.uk/shop/product/details/040216670

Jonathan before you get on the slippery slope of Festool and you are thinking of a Jigsaw, my Festool jigsaw only came out on bedroom and kitchen jobs and I only used their blades. Everything else, I used either a Makita 4350CT or a Bosch 150BCE which were excellent workhorses. I used to go through Jigsaws regular as I would often knock them of my bench or the f****** apprentice would drop them. SDS chucks on both and the makita had a light which was handy sometimes.

Makita > http://www.ffx.co.uk/tools/product/Makita 4350Ct 0088381080590 240V Orbital Action Jigsaw

Bosch > http://www.ffx.co.uk/tools/product/Bosch Gst150Bce 3165140463638 240V 780W 150Mm Professional Jigsaw
 
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Swanseajack said:
Thought I would chip in again to keep the thread running!

I used to fit for Floors2go and local suppliers and I used to have a Guilitine laminate cutter which I used to slide around the floor with me, I think it was made by Karlton as I also had there door trimmer. Could also have been Roberts as I had there Jam Saw before I started to use Fein for cutting out door jams.. Anyway excellent kits if using a lot like I was. I think I paid around £150 for it as this is going back about 10 years.

It seems they have been copied now and it was something like this > https://www.machinemart.co.uk/shop/product/details/040216670

Jonathan before you get on the slippery slope of Festool and you are thinking of a Jigsaw, my Festool jigsaw only came out on bedroom and kitchen jobs and I only used their blades. Everything else, I used either a Makita 4350CT or a Bosch 150BCE which were excellent workhorses. I used to go through Jigsaws regular as I would often knock them of my bench or the f****** apprentice would drop them. SDS chucks on both and the makita had a light which was handy sometimes.

Makita > http://www.ffx.co.uk/tools/product/Makita 4350Ct 0088381080590 240V Orbital Action Jigsaw

Bosch > http://www.ffx.co.uk/tools/product/Bosch Gst150Bce 3165140463638 240V 780W 150Mm Professional Jigsaw
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Festool do a drop test from 2m for all their tools. They must work perfectly afterwards.
But you're right, it's not worth it unless you are using them daily over several years.
 
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