Do I "need" 18 volts?

Steve Smith said:
I have four or five battery drills ranging from B&Q cheap to DeWalt. The batteries on most of them go flat very quickly (especially DeWalt).

I find it much easier to just run an extension lead and use my Bosch drill.

It would be good if the manufacturers of battery drills made a power supply with a mains lead which could plug in in place of the battery to give a mains or battery option.


Steve.
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When you say the batteries go flat quickly - how quickly ?
I know it isn't easy to say, but I find my (Makita) 18v batteries last way longer than I ever expected them to - up to a day and my old DeWalt ones that must have been 5-6 year old would still last a couple of hours for screwing plasterboard or chipboard etc.
 
I understand peoples reluctance to use mains corded power tools but from a point of value and power its a no brainer.

But each to there own, it isn't a hassle for me to simply plug and roll my nice 25m lead to where I need it, in my house pretty much every room has a modern socket even in Yorkshire.

plus my house supply is fully covered with RCD protection, my Bosch SDS cost me about £70 nigh on 10 years ago and is still mint.

The thought of getting a product out and finding the battery flat as well is of no use to me.
I always know the Bosch is GTG.
 
stevewestern said:
When you say the batteries go flat quickly - how quickly ?
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And more importantly....what kind of batteries? There's a good reason I don't want to pay out for new NiCad batteries now LiONs are affordable.
 
stevewestern said:
When you say the batteries go flat quickly - how quickly ?
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My dad used to have a DeWalt with three batteries (I have it now). I had a cheap JCB battery drill which came free with a JCB mains drill my dad bought. On one occasion we were both putting up plasterboard and one of my batteries lasted almost as long as his three with us both doing similar amounts of work.

Mr Bump said:
in my house pretty much every room has a modern socket even in Yorkshire
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Stop showing off!


Steve.
 
Ah, so that implies that the batteries were fairly old, and if they had not been regularly used then they may have been on their way out.
The 'new' Li-ion sort are way better than the old type.

Mr Bump does have a fair point - especially as Jonathan has said that he will only use his new drill for a month then chuck it into the shed for the next 11, but for me the hassle of getting out a lead and my corded tools makes the cost of cordless so worth it, especially when working on other peoples houses when I might have had to park 5 minutes walk away.
The problem with this thread is that it has made me look seriously into getting a 10.8v drill/driver and I keep on going back to the Festool CXS which is over £200...
 
JonathanRyan said:
Thanks - some great advice in this thread. Especially steering me away from Bosch :)

Quick question while I have all your attention....that Makita looks great. Would this be a better or worse buy?

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Dewalt-DC...284?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item35e9009964

(That's an 18V XR brushless DeWalt hammer driver with 4A battery for £145).

I know I'm unlikely to hit the limits on either but I have a slight brand fondness for DeWalt (after all, Tommy Walsh uses them....). Also, 25 quid cheaper.
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You must look into the spec on the drill a little like buying a ford fiesta 1litre and a fiesta 1.6 litre

Dewalt Max Torque Hard - 60 Nm
Makita - 88 Nm

So when you are drilling that concrete wall with your slightly cheaper Dewalt and it won't just do it then you will be thinking "I should have bought the Makita with the 88Nm Torque".......POWER IS KING.
 
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n0chex said:
You must look into the spec on the drill a little like buying a ford fiesta 1litre and a fiesta 1.6 litre

Dewalt Max Torque Hard - 60 Nm
Makita - 88 Nm

So when you are drilling that concrete wall with your slightly cheaper Dewalt and it won't just do it then you will be thinking "I should have bought the Makita with the 88Nm Torque".......POWER IS KING.
Click to expand...

Ah good answer. Is there any easy way of visualising what an extra 28 Nm of torque will actually get me? Also, do tool manufacturers generally tell the truth about stuff like this? Is it measurable in such a way that they stay honest?
 
I would have the best of both then in your scenario, a cracking corded SDS for all your heavy work and a nice Battery powered portable for the little jobs. Just also get a nice long easy to use extension reel then using the corded would be nice and easy.

But you seem fixed on batteries so hey ho.
Also bear in mind the environmental issues brewing down the line when millions of week end DIYers take all those expensive tired batteries to the tip in a few years :-)
 
JonathanRyan said:
Also, do tool manufacturers generally tell the truth about stuff like this? Is it measurable in such a way that they stay honest?
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They are as honest as the manufacturers of flashes are about light output... or as manufacturers of car audio equipment are about watts!


Steve.
 
Steve Smith said:
If you don't like extension leads, build a Tesla tower on your roof and transmit power to your drill!


Steve.
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And you could use it to zap intruders like in the game Red Alert :-)
 
Mr Bump said:
I would have the best of both then in your scenario, a cracking corded SDS for all your heavy work and a nice Battery powered portable for the little jobs.
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I have a lovely corded SDS for anything tough (I've mentioned it a couple of times in this thread), as I said, I'm looking to replace my battery drill with another battery drill.

Mr Bump said:
Also bear in mind the environmental issues brewing down the line when millions of week end DIYers take all those expensive tired batteries to the tip in a few years :)
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Good point. I'll stack them next to all the iPhones that need "recycling" after a year or two. This is actually one of the reasons why I'm looking to spend more if necessary to get one that lasts longer.

Steve Smith said:
They are as honest as the manufacturers of flashes are about light output... or as manufacturers of car audio equipment are about watts!
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That's exactly what bothers me :) I get the "more power is good" thing but I don't want to fall for the "pay more for a higher number that nobody can check" thing.
 
stevewestern said:
The problem with this thread is that it has made me look seriously into getting a 10.8v drill/driver and I keep on going back to the Festool CXS which is over £200...
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It's worth it.
You can take the Centrotec bit holder off and just put a driver bit in- this makes the driver about 150mm wide.
If you need to get in smaller spaces there is an angle attachment for getting in less than 100mm with the Centrotec holder. Or down under roughly 70mm if you take the holder off and just put the bit in.
It also comes with a Centrotec chuck which can also be used with the angle attachment.
Two batteries which each last longer than any other manufacturer's.
The light shines in the right place and a half press turns it on without turning the chuck.
I sling mine from my work trousers when up ladders and so on as it weighs about 900g.
 
JonathanRyan said:
I have a lovely corded SDS for anything tough (I've mentioned it a couple of times in this thread), as I said, I'm looking to replace my battery drill with another battery drill.



Good point. I'll stack them next to all the iPhones that need "recycling" after a year or two. This is actually one of the reasons why I'm looking to spend more if necessary to get one that lasts longer.



That's exactly what bothers me :) I get the "more power is good" thing but I don't want to fall for the "pay more for a higher number that nobody can check" thing.
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Hitachi seem to be okay for battery life, at least I've not had an issue.
The new Li-Ion batteries are backwards compatible with older models, not all manufacturers do this.
Kind of like Nikon and Canon!
 
Ryobi i have and its pants to be honest. Soon as it gets a bit hot it cuts out! Will spend more next time i buy and get a Makita.
 
kendo1 said:
It's worth it.
You can take the Centrotec bit holder off and just put a driver bit in- this makes the driver about 150mm wide.
If you need to get in smaller spaces there is an angle attachment for getting in less than 100mm with the Centrotec holder. Or down under roughly 70mm if you take the holder off and just put the bit in.
It also comes with a Centrotec chuck which can also be used with the angle attachment.
Two batteries which each last longer than any other manufacturer's.
The light shines in the right place and a half press turns it on without turning the chuck.
I sling mine from my work trousers when up ladders and so on as it weighs about 900g.
Click to expand...


I know EXACTLY how good they are - I bought a friend one as he refused to take any sort of payment for helping me out once !!
I also know I don't need one at all as I have so many tools - that said I am soon going to be finishing a job that has gone fairly well so far..............

My Festool dust extractor is an amazing tool which has paid for itself many times and has saved my lungs from dust and saved me from hours of clearing up (plunge saw and sanders) so I am also very aware how good a good tool can be. Another systainer is never a bad thing is it ??
 
Just buy the Makita trust me I'm a Vicar!
 
n0chex said:
You must look into the spec on the drill a little like buying a ford fiesta 1litre and a fiesta 1.6 litre

Dewalt Max Torque Hard - 60 Nm
Makita - 88 Nm

So when you are drilling that concrete wall with your slightly cheaper Dewalt and it won't just do it then you will be thinking "I should have bought the Makita with the 88Nm Torque".......POWER IS KING.
Click to expand...

[pedant] While power may be king, Nm is a unit of torque, NOT power.[/pedant]

n0chex said:
Just buy the Makita trust me I'm a Vicar!
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Can't trust someone who doesn't know the difference between torque and power!!! (And have problems with imaginary friends/employers!!!)
 
stevewestern said:
I know EXACTLY how good they are - I bought a friend one as he refused to take any sort of payment for helping me out once !!
I also know I don't need one at all as I have so many tools - that said I am soon going to be finishing a job that has gone fairly well so far..............

My Festool dust extractor is an amazing tool which has paid for itself many times and has saved my lungs from dust and saved me from hours of clearing up (plunge saw and sanders) so I am also very aware how good a good tool can be. Another systainer is never a bad thing is it ??
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You can never have enough tools, especially good ones!

Back to the OP:
When it comes to drill bits, they are just as important as the drill.
DeWalt masonry drills are, I find, the best. They cost a bit more than the cheap 'jobber' drills but last much longer, so are cheaper in the long run.
The DeWalt spade wood drills blunt very fast and are not worth buying.
I come across customers who have been using the same drills for years. Drills should be chucked out as soon as they go blunt.
It's a waste of time using them, get new ones and save yourself time and effort.
I buy 10 packs of drills and discard the used ones after a job.
 
Nod said:
[pedant] While power may be king, Nm is a unit of torque, NOT power.[/pedant]

Where did I say it wasn't , I just stated " POWER IS KING "


Can't trust someone who doesn't know the difference between torque and power!!! (And have problems with imaginary friends/employers!!!)
Click to expand...

Yawn ......
 
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kendo1 said:
You can never have enough tools, especially good ones!

Back to the OP:
When it comes to drill bits, they are just as important as the drill.
DeWalt masonry drills are, I find, the best. They cost a bit more than the cheap 'jobber' drills but last much longer, so are cheaper in the long run.
The DeWalt spade wood drills blunt very fast and are not worth buying.
I come across customers who have been using the same drills for years. Drills should be chucked out as soon as they go blunt.
It's a waste of time using them, get new ones and save yourself time and effort.
I buy 10 packs of drills and discard the used ones after a job.
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Really good point, I'm very guilty of letting bits get for too blunt. Some of mine are even slightly bent which I know is just a safety disaster waiting to happen. Then you use a brand new bit and it's like a revelation!!
 
does no one sharpen drills nowadays? I certainly would not chuck one of my dormer drills if I took the edge of it!

a couple of things not mentioned I think. I am a makita man but watch the battery compatibility. You want those with a star on the base for use with the new 4Ahr batteries etc. Some of the old stuff is still on sale.
Makita (like everyone else) does cheaper ones and more expensive ones. My 458 combi with 3Ah batteries is awsome. I tried a 453 with 1.5Ah battery and wasn't that impressed. still better than my old ryobi though......

btw. when I used my ryobi I used a mains drill for anything serious. Now the 458 does everything up to about 10mm in concrete, beyond that I have a mains sds that is good for up to 100mm or so. :)
 
brman said:
Really? takes seconds to put an edge back on a drill. It would take you a lot longer to buy a new one.....
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Nope.
 
:)
 
brman said:
does no one sharpen drills nowadays? I certainly would not chuck one of my dormer drills if I took the edge of it!
:)
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Like Kendo, I wouldn't bother sharpening - if I am working then my time is worth more than the cost of a drill bit, but I am talking mainly about small bits. Also, consumables are something I charge for and are tax-deductible too !
 
I think all those who are saying Corded is the way to go are missing the point that it is virtually impossible to for a Corded Drill to be used as a Screwdriver.
 
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Yep.
 
Some strange comments on here regarding Bosch. We are talking Bosch Blue and not DIY Green?

I have owned my Bosch SDS for as long as I can remember (15 years +) along with my 10.8 drill driver, which is the mutts for kitchen fitting. I continued with the SDS even after my old man passed down his Hilti's. Also owned the Bosch GCM12 which was the only the really big saw around at the time locally for me , and before the Kapex and others came out. Have also owned the Metabo kgs 305 & 255., the 305 being a beauty and very quiet.

With Festool have owned the T55, the 65mm planner and jigsaw. With the first use of the Festool tools and fitting front framed bedrooms, and as a guess I would have estimated we saved at least a days labour for two chippy's ripping down panels etc. Fanatstic tools and well worth the premium IMO. With the jigsaw and festool blades and using it to cut out a sink it's probably the only blade which didn't burn out and undercut. Most worktops are filled with crap to give them weight and are a pain for jigsaw blades.

With tools I allways found some brands were better than others for certain things, so I never committed to one brand.

For me, I had Festooll for ripping down and planing on kitchens and bedrooms then using a Bosch SDS for drilling the pilots for walls and Bosch 10.8 for fixing the screws.

For general carpentry and heavier work I had Panasonic & Makita Drills for things like decking, loved my Impact driver, makes driving in long screws, bolts etc........ so easy.

For ripping up tiles etc............ I had a Milwaukee, an excellent tool.

Routering I had a Dewalt 626?. Trend dust extractor.

Nobex Champion mitre saw for fixing beading after laminate flooring when the customers wouldn't pay for new skirting. Paslode IM200 for fixing the 18g nails.

For me I wouldn't get hung up about 18 volt for your uses I would concentrate on the batteries ampage, which for me was more important.

The best cordless drills / twin set I have ever owned have been Panasonic, people in the know, know these are the dogs danglies.

If Makita keep away from the red battery ones if you plan on some heavy work, their for DIY like Bosch green.

Amazon have some bargains some times > http://www.amazon.co.uk/Makita-DK18...&qid=1431685174&sr=8-10&keywords=Makita+drill

This drill was on a lightining deal recently for £109 AFAIR > http://www.amazon.co.uk/Makita-DHP4...8&qid=1431685174&sr=8-2&keywords=Makita+drill
 
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Thanks for the comments. This is the kind of stuff that makes me realise I need advice....

Swanseajack said:
Some strange comments on here regarding Bosch. We are talking Bosch Blue and not DIY Green?

....

If Makita keep away from the red battery ones if you plan on some heavy work, their for DIY like Bosh green.
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AFAIK DeWalt only have one range and that's why I slightly favour them - I think it's hard to pick a bad one.

Having said that, I keep looking at a second hand Festool on eBay...... :) If I'm honest it would probably do 80% of what I need and there's always the corded SDS for brick and big holes.
 
Also I found Anglian tools were good to deal with and the prices were competative, especially when I bought my Panasonic drills from them.
JonathanRyan said:
Thanks for the comments. This is the kind of stuff that makes me realise I need advice....



AFAIK DeWalt only have one range and that's why I slightly favour them - I think it's hard to pick a bad one.

Having said that, I keep looking at a second hand Festool on eBay...... :) If I'm honest it would probably do 80% of what I need and there's always the corded SDS for brick and big holes.
Click to expand...

Myself personally I didn't like Dewalt drills, my old chippy partner had some and I disliked the feel and balance of them. The comments on this thread are personal and these are my opinions when I was on the tools.

I have used Cordless Dewalt, Hilti, Bosch, Makita, Panasonic and Metabo and my favourite was the Panasonic. It just felt nice in my hands and the grip was soft and was comfortable to use for long periods of time. Also, I believe that Panasonic made the batteries for most manufactures and kept the best for them.

Festool are fanatstic tools although I have never used their drills, only the circular saw, jigsaw and planer and if there drills are the same quality they are worth buying. But IMO the Makita twin set I linked above is excellent value for somebody like you, who doesn't make a living from powertools. Also, this Panasonic kit is good and what I liked with the Impact Driver you could reduce the speed / torque when you needed more control. Very handy feature along with the little lamp above the battery. For the price of the Festool drill you could have a Panasonic twin set for similar money. When you get used to a Impact Driver they are a very useful piece of kit to have. > http://www.amazon.co.uk/Panasonic-E...&qid=1431689536&sr=1-2&keywords=panasonic+18v
 
I wish I had your range of tools :)
to reply to a few of your comments.....
Swanseajack said:
Some strange comments on here regarding Bosch. We are talking Bosch Blue and not DIY Green?
Click to expand...
I agree that bosh blue are generally ok but I have to admit I would still rate makita/dewalt etc better if I had to buy blind (ie no knowledge of the specific item)
For example I have a bosch 10.8 drill/driver. It does the job ok but has twice had trigger problems and the chuck is not the best in the world (tends to loosen off). Yes they have 3 year warranties but that isn't really the point when you are on a job and it starts playing up :(
Other bosch stuff is excellent (you mentioned their sds drills for example) and they do have some good new stuff like wireless charging.
Swanseajack said:
With tools I allways found some brands were better than others for certain things, so I never committed to one brand.
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A very good point! Although it is useful if you can standardise at least partially. eg most of my stuff (but not all) is makita LXT so I can share my batteries around.
Swanseajack said:
For me I wouldn't get hung up about 18 volt for your uses I would concentrate on the batteries ampage, which for me was more important.
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I know what you mean here but I wouldn't get hung up on ampage either (I assume you mean capacity, eg Ah?). So I would definitely get a 3Ah system over a 1.5Ah but don't care that some manufacturers have 5Ah available whereas the makita (for example) "only" have 4Ah batteries . Plus a 2Ah 18V system will do more work that a 3Ah 10.8V system, all other things being equal.
It is horses for courses I think. My bosch 10.8 (1.5Ah) drill driver is perfect for general stuff. it is always in my toolbag and is great for screwdrivering or basic drilling (rawplugs etc). But for anything serious (ie multiple 20mm holes in joints, concrete, engineering brick etc them my 18V Makita BHP458 comes out. really serious stuff (chasing, core drilling, larger holes in concrete) a 240V SDS....
I'd suggest that, if you just want one drill to do everything, it needs to be 18V 3Ah as a minimum, and not one of the lower power models either.
Swanseajack said:
The best cordless drills / twin set I have ever owned have been Panasonic, people in the know, know these are the dogs danglies.
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I have head a few people praise panasonic. My only complaint is they don't have there range of makita etc if you want lots of tools on the same battery.
Swanseajack said:
If Makita keep away from the red battery ones if you plan on some heavy work, their for DIY like Bosch green.
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yes, I'd avoid anything with NiMh or NiCd batteries nowadays.
Swanseajack said:
Amazon have some bargains some times > http://www.amazon.co.uk/Makita-DK18...&qid=1431685174&sr=8-10&keywords=Makita+drill
This drill was on a lightining deal recently for £109 AFAIR > http://www.amazon.co.uk/Makita-DHP4...8&qid=1431685174&sr=8-2&keywords=Makita+drill
Click to expand...
Some bargains there. I have the makita 458 and 146 (ie that first link) and find them both excellent.
 
Swanseajack said:
Myself personally I didn't like Dewalt drills, my old chippy partner had some and I disliked the feel and balance of them. The comments on this thread are personal and these are my opinions when I was on the tools.
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Another very good point and one of the reasons why I initially bought makita instead of Dewalt. But then I also would never buy a Canon DSLR for the same reason :LOL:
 
Whereas I'd stick with Hitachi as I have had some of them for about ten years. Old and new batteries are interchangeable.
Besides, they are green which matches my Festools, Wera bits and screwdrivers!

But seriously, I find it useful for when I am working with other tradesmen as it makes it easier to keep an eye on my tools...
 
@brman Myself and a few mates never found Dewalt any good for drills but they were good for saws and routers. I had the 626 router and at the time it was the most powerful, and when everyone else was buying Trend T10. Myself I prefered the Dewalt router.

I have never used Bosch cordless drills apart from the 10.8v little cordless driver, which for me was a god send when doing kitchens, nice and light could drive a 40mm screw in to fix worktops. My most used tool probably. My SDS was Bosch and my core drill. Excellent work horses and I prefered them to the Hilti's my father give me, which I sold. I must say though that an electrician friend of mine had the Bosch SDS, 36V I think and he sweared by it.

With my Makita LXT these were the older 2.6 amp ni-cad I think and for me they were excellent workhorses for drill driver and impact but I found the plastic join on drill used to pinch my hand sometimes. It was pain on times. When I bought the Panasonic set they were in a total different league IMO. Lovely tools and are good value now.

I have used Hitachi tools on site, but again I prefered my Panasonics. My mate also bought the cheap 18v 1.5ah DD from Screwfix, for the price of £89 it was okay, couldn't do serious work though. Hitachi routers are supposed to be good.

As for batteries, I have never had a problem when most kits come with two, if needed, it was just a matter of a top up charge at lunchtime. Regarding volts vs amapage (amp hour). For some people they see 18 volts or 36 volts etc............ but they come with a 1.3ah battery. The type of thing you buy in Argos ect............. poor marriage and no good for repetitive work.

At the end of the day we all have our opinions on tools, just like we do on cameras. It's being educated and reviewing things for your needs.

As an example, Karcher are very good at marketing and a they sell a lot of domestic machines, but in the main they are crap (domestic models not sure on pro). Myself I paid the extra for a Kranzle., ask the average joe bloggs and they would never have heard of them.

Another is the Festool TS Plunge Saws and rails, a lot of people don't realise it was designed around the Mafell Saws with the addition of splinter guards ect.......... Again a lot of people haven't heard of Mafell.
 
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A very good idea Jonathan - Thanks to this thread I am about to buy me a Festool TXS, which is the same thing as a CXS but with a different shape handle.
The CXS is such a powerful little tool, so well built and easy and comfortable to use.
It isn't a hammer drill, but you have your SDS for heavy work.
For £100 it is a bargain - does it come with any bits (spare battery, chuck, systainer etc ?)
Had I seen it on ebay I may have been bidding against you !
 
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