Diesel car sales to plunge again this year, study warns

The petrol and diesel infrastructure also uses significant electricity. The whole country won't switch over night. It will take a few years to do. Average age of a scrapped car is about 12 years old so I'd think it would be 10 years before most people have an EV of some kind and even then many will still have the PHEV types rather than pure electric if they want to do things such as tow a caravan or drive 500 miles all in one go because they can't stand to stop for a break.
 
Paul W. H said:
I belive that there are going to be "Real Issues" with re-charging whilst away from home overnight.

I have not as yet seen any charging points at any hotels I have stayed in, so assuming eventually a hotel had 2-3-4 charging points what will happen ? Someone will arrive at the hotel at 6pm and plug-in for a 8 hour charge, are they realistically going to move their car at 2am so someone else can have a top-up, I don't think so.
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Great point - was a sales rep for many years, driving Cambridge to Manchester - stay over and then home - never had the time to charge in the day so would have needed hotels to accommodate but would need one charging station per space
 
More kettles than EVs at the moment. Not sure what a slow charger for an EV draws but kettles are around 3kW IIRC. (Just had a quick look and slow chargers seem to be 3.6kW.)

Hopefully, by the time EVs are the norm, power supplies (including a non polluting source) and charging points will be widespread.
 
cambsno said:
And we know how crap the government is at planning and infrastructure - successive ones have not addressed NHS, education or housing over recent years with a massively growing population so can we really be confident of them addressing this?

Also, research has shown that the world's 15 largest container ships produce as much pollution as all 760m cars on earth (hard to believe but read it on the web so must be true!) , so as I see so often with pollution we rarely attack the really serious causes (i.e. meat production for climate change).
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Cruise ships are amazing in a really bad way when it comes to pollution.

https://www.theguardian.com/environ...ise-ship-and-its-supersized-pollution-problem

Here we go on the container ships.

http://www.industrytap.com/worlds-1...pollution-than-all-the-cars-in-the-world/8182

Meanwhile, with all the plans to ban diesel cars from London and other cities, this seems to be just the kind of replacement to keep everyone happy - what could possibly go wrongo_O

https://www.theguardian.com/environ...-worsen-london-air-pollution-campaigners-warn
 
Nod said:
While EV's produce no emissions at the point of use, they do need to get their power from somewhere and the chances are that that's still a fossil fuelled generating plant.!
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We generate quite a lot of power from renewables now. Quite amazing how much really. We do about 14% from coal but a lot from Gas turbine
You can watch live http://gridwatch.co.uk/
 
Nod said:
More kettles than EVs at the moment. Not sure what a slow charger for an EV draws but kettles are around 3kW IIRC. (Just had a quick look and slow chargers seem to be 3.6kW.)

Hopefully, by the time EVs are the norm, power supplies (including a non polluting source) and charging points will be widespread.
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Post 61
There are four main EV charging types: Slow (up to 3kW) which is best suited for 6-8 hours overnight; Fast (7-22kW) which can fully recharge some models in 3-4 hours; and Rapid AC and DC (43-50kW) which are able to provide an 80% charge in around 30 minutes.
 
The way to cure London’s pollution problems is simple demolish the f*****g place and build it on top of a hill . Simples
 
The technology for fully workable electric cars can't be too far off surely. Whether there's a will from the worlds manufacturers and governments is another matter. There'll be a lot of lost revenue if everyone went electric.

In simple terms, there are a lot of moving/spinning parts on a car that could have that energy recovered to allow charging of batteries whilst on the move. I have no doubt this is being done in the current generation of EV's but just needs the efficiency upping.

My current car has brake regeneration built in, it basically uses the kinetic energy produced while breaking to recharge the battery thus reducing the workload on the 'dirty' diesel engine to do the charging and in turn reducing emissions. Select 'eco-pro' mode and it sorts out all the climate control and engine/power management to allow for the most efficient use of fuel.
 
PaulF said:
The technology for fully workable electric cars can't be too far off surely. Whether there's a will from the worlds manufacturers and governments is another matter. There'll be a lot of lost revenue if everyone went electric.

In simple terms, there are a lot of moving/spinning parts on a car that could have that energy recovered to allow charging of batteries whilst on the move. I have no doubt this is being done in the current generation of EV's but just needs the efficiency upping.

My current car has brake regeneration built in, it basically uses the kinetic energy produced while breaking to recharge the battery thus reducing the workload on the 'dirty' diesel engine to do the charging and in turn reducing emissions. Select 'eco-pro' mode and it sorts out all the climate control and engine/power management to allow for the most efficient use of fuel.
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There wont be lost revenue... any savings we get in not buying heavily taxed fuel and possibly through electric cars having less parts will be taken up by electricity taxes and car companies increasing the car cost to compensate for less parts etc... We will be no better off
 
Having just been through the exercise and examined all the options we went with Petrol this time. The diesel market is too uncertain and the electric/phev vehicles are not mature enough to be range dependable. Electric seems to be the buzz word but there is also the hydrogen cell which theoretically should offer far more flexibility. The salesmen assured us that new diesel cars were far beyond the current and future emissions standards, but then they would say that wouldn't they! IMHO it will take 10 yrs before the electric market will have the range and charging infrastructure to make them a viable alternative
 
Gaz J said:
I think most people recognise the advantages of non polluting vehicles but, at the moment, electric cars are simply not fit for purpose unless all your journeys are within its range. The infrastructure to cater for electric cars over longer journeys isn't in place. Who wants to be forced to stop on the motorway to recharge your car to continue? It just doesn't work. They're expensive, generally small and poor value for money.

The UK still relies on significant input from coal and gas fired power stations to produce its electricity. I know the green brigade will point to the fact that on one day last year renewable energy did this and that and it's the answer to all our problems but it's way off being where it needs to be. Yesterday renewables contributed 4% of the uk demand. Today it's slightly less. Coal today is contributing 15% and combined cycle station 58%.

Whilst I'm sure that an electric car would cater for my needs for 75% of my journeys I would still need another car to drive for the other 25%.

I need a car that does everything I need it to do, has decent luggage capacity and costs me the least amount to run. Plus I like driving diesels, the torque of a Diesel engine is way better and it's just a nicer car to drive than petrol versions.
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This sums up the problem, it's all very well for environmentalists, politicians and the like, but in the real world, not everyone lives in London and not everyone can manage without a diesel car..
My own car is a Shogun, with 4WD, low transfer box, loads of torque and poor fuel economy - and the reason I have it is that I need to drive off road, quite often on boggy fields, whilst towing a trailer with up to 60 bales of hay on it - now, if anyone can point me towards an electric car that can do that, or even a petrol one that does more than about 8mpg, please let me know...
 
Jaguar Land Rover have the plug in hybrid drive train on the new discovery and full fat rangie. In time all that will be available in cheaper cars. Everyone survived without diesel for towing before it was common place.
 
srichards said:
Jaguar Land Rover have the plug in hybrid drive train on the new discovery and full fat rangie. In time all that will be available in cheaper cars. Everyone survived without diesel for towing before it was common place.
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Land Rover have priced themselves out of the farming market, it isn't just the purchase price, it's also the servicing costs and the reliability problems, possibly due in part to the complexity and the gadgets. Nearly all of the working 4WD vehicles on farms are now Japanese, mainly the Shogun and the L200, so I can't see plug in hybrid drive chains being an acceptable answer, even if they were even available on affordable cars
 
I think the issue was more to do with them being forced to discontinue the rather utilitarian Defender.
 
viv1969 said:
Should they have to have two vehicles, then?
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Would make more sense than just one that is a high polluter just in general use but even worse when towing a caravan.
I wonder how people managed towing caravans all those years ago with much less powerful petrol cars.
 
nilagin said:
Would make more sense than just one that is a high polluter just in general use but even worse when towing a caravan.
I wonder how people managed towing caravans all those years ago with much less powerful petrol cars.
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As someone who doesn't really give a s*** about pollution, I'd just have the one vehicle. :-)
 
srichards said:
Jaguar Land Rover have the plug in hybrid drive train on the new discovery and full fat rangie. In time all that will be available in cheaper cars. Everyone survived without diesel for towing before it was common place.
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Ahh the good old days ,Petrol tow cars at least a 2.5 or 3 ltr needed doing about 15 mpg towing ,also the caravans were smaller and lighter ,I don’t remember having a caravan with a full sized washroom with a circular shower enclosure or a full sized kitchen or even a full oven and a microwave ,or come to think of it double glazed windows and a large roof sunlight thrown in . And my van is only a single axle two berth there are some gigantic twin axle six berths out there these days ,anything less than a four litre Range Rover is out of the question for those ..
Get rid of powerful turbo charged diesels and you will probably kill the very lucrative caravan industry ,also camp sites etc lose thousands of jobs just to appease a few people with there own agendas ,it ain’t gonna happen ,never can and never will
 
Garry Edwards said:
This sums up the problem, it's all very well for environmentalists, politicians and the like, but in the real world, not everyone lives in London and not everyone can manage without a diesel car..
My own car is a Shogun, with 4WD, low transfer box, loads of torque and poor fuel economy - and the reason I have it is that I need to drive off road, quite often on boggy fields, whilst towing a trailer with up to 60 bales of hay on it - now, if anyone can point me towards an electric car that can do that, or even a petrol one that does more than about 8mpg, please let me know...
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Bollinger B1. Order one now and you should get in 19 months time.
 
Garry Edwards said:
Land Rover have priced themselves out of the farming market, it isn't just the purchase price, it's also the servicing costs and the reliability problems, possibly due in part to the complexity and the gadgets. Nearly all of the working 4WD vehicles on farms are now Japanese, mainly the Shogun and the L200, so I can't see plug in hybrid drive chains being an acceptable answer, even if they were even available on affordable cars
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Or is it more of a case of uncertainty of whether having to pay full price for the electricity as opposed to being able to use cheap diesel.
 
the black fox said:
Ahh the good old days ,Petrol tow cars at least a 2.5 or 3 ltr needed doing about 15 mpg towing ,also the caravans were smaller and lighter ,I don’t remember having a caravan with a full sized washroom with a circular shower enclosure or a full sized kitchen or even a full oven and a microwave ,or come to think of it double glazed windows and a large roof sunlight thrown in . And my van is only a single axle two berth there are some gigantic twin axle six berths out there these days ,anything less than a four litre Range Rover is out of the question for those ..
Get rid of powerful turbo charged diesels and you will probably kill the very lucrative caravan industry ,also camp sites etc lose thousands of jobs just to appease a few people with there own agendas ,it ain’t gonna happen ,never can and never will
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I think you need to start leaving the house at home when you go away. That's not a caravan, that's a joke.
Bloke I used to work with could manage to tow his caravan (not his house) with a naturally aspirated 2.0 Focus just fine. My wife' grandfather used to tow his caravan with a Fiat Panda 4x4, and when it rained he used to tow the other cars and caravans off the muddy site with it.
 
Gremlin said:
Production of electricity requires some sort of fuel, be it wind, water or burning something
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Not forgetting the mining & production of fuel cells/batteries.

gman said:
If we, the UK and EU, were really serious about being concerned with pollution then we would boycott China and stop buying anything made there until they get their pollution sorted.
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We & other countries have been shipping millions of tons of waste to China & India for years, which can't be good for the planet.
China has just declared they won't be re-cycling our plastics anymore, so we'll have to find an alternative or do it ourselves.

Gaz J said:
The UK still relies on significant input from coal and gas fired power stations to produce its electricity.
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Including shipping it in from other countries.

cambsno said:
Also, research has shown that the world's 15 largest container ships produce as much pollution as all 760m cars on earth (hard to believe but read it on the web so must be true!) , so as I see so often with pollution we rarely attack the really serious causes ........
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Those figures may or may not be accurate, but I agree with the sentiment.


As usual, it all boils down to money/business not what is sensible or good for the planet.
 
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viv1969 said:
As someone who doesn't really give a s*** about pollution, I'd just have the one vehicle. :)
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you came up pretty low in my opinion before that post, now your pretty much rock bottom.
 
As far as I can tell there is a limited source of Lithium and virtually only a single source, talk about putting all your eggs in one basket.
 
MatBin said:
As far as I can tell there is a limited source of Lithium and virtually only a single source, talk about putting all your eggs in one basket.
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It's incredibly bad for the environment and third world countries to mine the rare metals too.

But as long as us first worlders have a good quality of life hey..
 
OldCarlos said:
We & other countries have been shipping millions of tons of waste to China & India for years, which can't be good for the planet.

China has just declared they won't be re-cycling our plastics anymore, so we'll have to find an alternative or do it ourselves.
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Plastic recycling has been a serious problem for quite some time now, including China no longer taking it (they've been refusing it long before making their 'official' declaration). Our own politicians are, as usual, spectacularly late in spotting the problem.

It's not waste being sent to China which is causing the pollution, it's their heavy industry and in particular their metal works. I believe China is also heavily dependent on coal which is a huge contributing factor, so much so that I think they are aiming to reduce coal consumption drastically to try and reduce the large number of related deaths. It certainly isn't our fault that they are polluting the life out of earth.

Obviously there is also America, India, Russia and the EU (seeing as it is treated as one entity) who are also bad polluters, although it can be dependent on what type of pollution you are looking at. But the UK among others are pretty strict, however, at what cost to our economy does this have and in the meantime other countries who don't appear to have the same concern for the environment can power ahead unhindered.

I really would rather pay a lot more for something which would be built in the UK if the quality was better and there was a greater chance of higher ethics applied within the whole manufacturing process. But cheap and cheerful wins the day, regardless of the various costs associated.
 
neil_g said:
I always love how in these anti diesel rants debates people always assume they know best about what your needs are and what fuels you should be using.
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Same can be said for people who bought diesel cars instead of petrol just because they could save a tenner a month on VED.
 
:LOL::LOL:
nilagin said:
I think you need to start leaving the house at home when you go away. That's not a caravan, that's a joke.
Bloke I used to work with could manage to tow his caravan (not his house) with a naturally aspirated 2.0 Focus just fine. My wife' grandfather used to tow his caravan with a Fiat Panda 4x4, and when it rained he used to tow the other cars and caravans off the muddy site with it.
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First off I suggest you pop into a caravan dealers and take a look at modern vans ,these days they are longer ,wider and higher than they were 20 or 30 years ago ,and also a lot heavier .yes indeed your taking a second home away with you .the gas mantles in the corner are no longer there :LOL: there are also lots of rules and regulations regarding towing capabilities of the vehicle being used ,and while a 4x4 panda might have the ability to move a caravan around a site ,there are very few modern vans it would be a legal tow match with ...engine power has nothing to do with it the 80% rule is the one to adhere to
 
the black fox said:
:LOL::LOL:
First off I suggest you pop into a caravan dealers and take a look at modern vans ,these days they are longer ,wider and higher than they were 20 or 30 years ago ,and also a lot heavier .yes indeed your taking a second home away with you .the gas mantles in the corner are no longer there :LOL: there are also lots of rules and regulations regarding towing capabilities of the vehicle being used ,and while a 4x4 panda might have the ability to move a caravan around a site ,there are very few modern vans it would be a legal tow match with ...engine power has nothing to do with it the 80% rule is the one to adhere to
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I have no intention of going to view modern caravans. It is bad enough I have to drive past a sales place everyday without stopping to inspect them. It's bad enough people bringing them into work as well as motorbikes and taking up loads of spaces in the works car park when the weather improves.
 
nilagin said:
It's bad enough people bringing them into work as well as motorbikes and taking up loads of spaces in the works car park when the weather improves.
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Keep going you're on a roll, don't think there's many you have left out, maybe motorhomes are next :)
 
nilagin said:
I have no intention of going to view modern caravans. It is bad enough I have to drive past a sales place everyday without stopping to inspect them. It's bad enough people bringing them into work as well as motorbikes and taking up loads of spaces in the works car park when the weather improves.
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I always park my motorbike in a nice big car space, all cars in our corporate car park bring one person to work :-)
 
Mr Bump said:
I always park my motorbike in a nice big car space, all cars in our corporate car park bring one person to work :)
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If they are diesels they are probably getting more to the gallon than your bike (or mine).
 
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