Diesel car sales to plunge again this year, study warns

[GTG]

I don't believe the Diesel car is such a problem, why !!

Agricultural Vehicles, Heavy Plant, Heavy Goods Vehicles, Light Goods Vehicles, Shipping etc. all running on diesel. What are they going to with these ?

Because traffic and people in the same place, e.g City, towns.

There is some evidence that repeated exposure to diesel fumes over a period of about 20 years may increase the risk of lung cancer.

Exposure to petrol engine exhaust emissions does not have the same risk.

 

[MatBin]

Because traffic and people in the same place, e.g City, towns.

There is some evidence that repeated exposure to diesel fumes over a period of about 20 years may increase the risk of lung cancer.

Exposure to petrol engine exhaust emissions does not have the same risk.

Until it suits to prove otherwise.

 

[Mr Bump]

Until it suits to prove otherwise.

To be fair and without being rude, if you firmly believe diesel and other forms of airborne pollution are all ok and dandy then not much will change your mind or change your patterns.
diesel exhausts is incredibly dangerous to health especially to the young and old, continuing with the farce of diesel on our roads will lead to yet another serious health situation to add to diabetes and obesity.

 

[GTG]

Until it suits to prove otherwise.

Well I'm sure the plan is to get everyone onto electric and then

To be fair and without being rude, if you firmly believe diesel and other forms of airborne pollution are all ok and dandy then not much will change your mind or change your patterns.
diesel exhausts is incredibly dangerous to health especially to the young and old, continuing with the farce of diesel on our roads will lead to yet another serious health situation to add to diabetes and obesity.

I agree, if there is evidence it could be causing lung cancer long term then it is especially hideous because I have heard the screaming of a person dying from that from several houses away. Vile thing

 

[MatBin]

To be fair and without being rude, if you firmly believe diesel and other forms of airborne pollution are all ok and dandy then not much will change your mind or change your patterns.
diesel exhausts is incredibly dangerous to health especially to the young and old, continuing with the farce of diesel on our roads will lead to yet another serious health situation to add to diabetes and obesity.

Well I'm sure the plan is to get everyone onto electric and then

I agree, if there is evidence it could be causing lung cancer long term then it is especially hideous because I have heard the screaming of a person dying from that from several houses away. Vile thing

You have misunderstood me, I'm not saying Diesel is good Petrol is bad, what I'm saying is Politician's will bend the truth to suit their needs and I am sure if it suits then a "study" will "prove" petrol is bad too in a few years time. As indeed they knew diesel was bad but chose to "ignore" the facts as it didnt suit them to say otherwise a few years ago.

As an aside 3 of my family have died of cancer, 2 were via lung cancer, the pain in the case above should have been handled by a heavy dose of morphine, there is no need these days for anyone to suffer the pain associated with cancer or brain surgery which 2 of my family have suffered from. I am well versed in post operative pain management believe me.

Matt

 

[Donnie]

not surprised it is one of the worst cars tested that didn't conform to the official tested output.

you are pumping a huge amount into the atmosphere..

In real world conditions, the Nissan Qashqai produces 18 times more nitrogen oxides than the official lab-based test allows under EU directives, while Nissan’s Juke pumps out 16 times more NOx pollution than the limit, according to data from vehicle testing company Emissions Analytics seen by the Guardian.

But I dont care about nitrogen oxides.

 

[viv1969]

But I dont care about nitrogen oxides.

Me either.
I'll buy whatever vehicle suits my needs.

 

[the black fox]

I,ll buy what ever is cheap to run I.e good mpg and is capable of towing a 1400kg caravan without any problems

 

[Dangermouse]

I travel all over the UK in my V70 D5 its the cheapest car to run in my case so I will be getting another but my next will be a V90 diesel as they seem to be more fuel efficient to the D5

 

[Gremlin]

You have misunderstood me, I'm not saying Diesel is good Petrol is bad, what I'm saying is Politician's will bend the truth to suit their needs and I am sure if it suits then a "study" will "prove" petrol is bad too in a few years time. As indeed they knew diesel was bad but chose to "ignore" the facts as it didnt suit them to say otherwise a few years ago.

This so true, so called experts change their minds so often about what is and what isn't good for us.
Production of electricity requires some sort of fuel, be it wind, water or burning something
We have the "not in my backyard" brigade complaining about wind farms etc
You have to wonder what the percentage of fumes caused by industry worldwide is in relation to personal transport,,
I use a lot more fuel for work then I do in my own car

 

[Mr Bump]

But I dont care about nitrogen oxides.

oh well, that is sad that you feel that way,

 

[nilagin]

Did anyone see the programme on TV last night about vehicle emissions? They tried out a few things to reduce particulate and nox emissions on a trial day compared to the normal level of emissions on a road where emissions are in excess of the acceptable limit. By blocking off parking bays and reprogramming traffic light sequences they managed to reduce the emissions by 10% bringing the emissions down below the limit. They also asked parents to not use cars if possible when taking the kids to school as well as picking them up. This had a more significant effect and reduced emissions by 30%. Particulates can lead to respiratory problems and nox to cancer. The real eye opener was that although the emissions are high for the pedestrians, they are quite significantly higher for motorists sitting in their cars. Motorists are advised to put their car ventilation on to recirculation so that it isn't drawing air from outside.
They also monitored someone driving his car and the emissions it produced. Although at some points like pulling away they were unable to reduce emissions, it was pointed out that by reducing the pressure on the accelerator pedal whilst maintaining a constant speed, you can still maintain the speed but the emissions will drop right down.

 

[nilagin]

I,ll buy what ever is cheap to run I.e good mpg and is capable of towing a 1400kg caravan without any problems

Do you tow your caravan every day then?

 

[gman]

Although power stations, production plants etc all create pollution as well, it's the tailpipe emissions right in your face and straight into your lungs which I think is the main concern. I walk my son to school and the smell is horrible, especially vans sitting with their engine on whilst they read a paper but a lot of parents do it also.

If we, the UK and EU, were really serious about being concerned with pollution then we would boycott China and stop buying anything made there until they get their pollution sorted. Part of me can't help but wonder if their pollution is having an effect on our seasons.

 

[andya700]

I have just entered CT17 9BU (Dover Harbour) into the above and the result is "1" which I find strange as there are thousands of trucks concentrated here 24/7 363 days a year, perhaps it is the sea air.

Plus the ferries. Have you seen the black clouds being released from their funnels?
My postcode is rated "1" which I find surprising as we are 100 metres away from a main road, and have the M2 about half a mile away.

 

[srichards]

All the cars I've had recently have automatic air re-circulation so when dirty air is detected it's re-circulated inside the car rather than further pulled in. It's been on premium cars for years. My 2004 Audi had it. EVs produce no tail pipe emissions so imagine how clean the air would be if they made up the bulk of cars on the road? You can't have properly clean air with combustion cars.

 

[Gremlin]

They also asked parents to not use cars if possible when taking the kids to school as well as picking them up. This had a more significant effect and reduced emissions by 30%.

That won't last.
I used to live near a school and the road was always blocked, including driveways by parents who couldn't walk for ten minutes.
On fridays they had an end of week assembly and if you needed to get you car out you had to go and ask for cars to be moved
much to the owners annoyance, most of these were chelsea tractors, never been off road in their lives
Their summer fete was a nightmare when Phil Collins lived near and used to open it, the whole village went on meltdown, you couldn't
get anywhere, then someone let them use a field to park in, but it was about 15 mins walk, caused great upset,

 

[Gaz J]

I think most people recognise the advantages of non polluting vehicles but, at the moment, electric cars are simply not fit for purpose unless all your journeys are within its range. The infrastructure to cater for electric cars over longer journeys isn't in place. Who wants to be forced to stop on the motorway to recharge your car to continue? It just doesn't work. They're expensive, generally small and poor value for money.

The UK still relies on significant input from coal and gas fired power stations to produce its electricity. I know the green brigade will point to the fact that on one day last year renewable energy did this and that and it's the answer to all our problems but it's way off being where it needs to be. Yesterday renewables contributed 4% of the uk demand. Today it's slightly less. Coal today is contributing 15% and combined cycle station 58%.

Whilst I'm sure that an electric car would cater for my needs for 75% of my journeys I would still need another car to drive for the other 25%.

I need a car that does everything I need it to do, has decent luggage capacity and costs me the least amount to run. Plus I like driving diesels, the torque of a Diesel engine is way better and it's just a nicer car to drive than petrol versions.

 

[srichards]

Tesla is massive. The model X seats 7. Leaf is a normal 5 seater. The Soul is the same size as the normal Soul and that seats 5.

The best answer right now is the PHEV. You have two cars in one. Electric drive for in city use and engine for out of city. That can go anywhere. All of the benefits and none of the limitations of pure electric.

 

[cambsno]

As is so often the case, silo thinking, getting rid of a perfectly good car because it has questionably high levels of some sort of pollutant results in possibly even more pollution as the result of buying a new car and all it entails to create that new car.
I am convinced we were "persuaded" to buy diesels to help our balance of payments as we produced the diesel at home from North Sea Oil as it was a type of crude which produced more diesel per barrel than other crudes, now that the production from our own oil has dropped significantly it makes economic sense to use electricity if we can generate that in sufficient quantatity preferably from eco friendly ways or if that fails from LNG?gas fuelled power stations.
No doubt when we can no longer generate enough electricity economically we'll be told some half-truth about electric cars being bad for the environment, which, given the amount of eco-unfriendly infrastructure work will be required seems quite possible.

Yes, remember the days when we were told butter or eggs are bad for you, now not so... or red meat is bad etc... Pregnant women cant eat this then a few years later told they can.

Electric cars have so far to go in terms of range and affordability. Not to mention how you charge? What if you live in flats, or a Victorian terrace style house - both of which are popular up and down the country - cant leave cables strewn across streets. Knowing the way our governments and councils work there will never be enough charging points and the cost to use will probably be a rip off too.

 

[Byker28i]

I think most people recognise the advantages of non polluting vehicles but, at the moment, electric cars are simply not fit for purpose unless all your journeys are within its range. The infrastructure to cater for electric cars over longer journeys isn't in place. Who wants to be forced to stop on the motorway to recharge your car to continue? It just doesn't work. They're expensive, generally small and poor value for money.

2-3 hours driving range, recharge for 20-30 mins whilst you stop for a coffee/break wouldn't be too bad. Fast recharge for 80% of battery would work for most if we had a good network of chargers. Major routes are OK as most are in services, but other places have poor coverage.
There are four main EV charging types: Slow (up to 3kW) which is best suited for 6-8 hours overnight; Fast (7-22kW) which can fully recharge some models in 3-4 hours; and Rapid AC and DC (43-50kW) which are able to provide an 80% charge in around 30 minutes.
https://www.zap-map.com/live/ shows charging points

Tesla is massive. The model X seats 7. .

The Model S is smaller, seats 5, is a very nice drive, has the fast recharge, decent performance and range, but even second hand is a lot of money, but it is a luxury car.
What we need is a £30k new car, 5 seats, reasonable boot, a real 300-350 mile range and fast recharge, with more fast recharge points.

I'm 165 miles from Pembroke, which at best has some 7w charging points on the Stackpole estate or maybe County Hall in Havorfordwest.
It's just not there yet

 

[Donnie]

oh well, that is sad that you feel that way,

Is it? Sad for you maybe but not for me, Im running about in a brand new car and I f***ing love it.

 

[Gaz J]

Tesla is a non starter. They can't produce them quickly enough and they are silly money. Soul and Leaf boot space too small and look as though they've been battered with the ugly stick.

I've had a spin in the new Mini Countryman hybrid and quite liked the drive in that. It's not stupid money either in comparision with the rest of the range. Still not a great looking car though.

 

[srichards]

Charging provision in Wales is diabolical. The welsh government have a lot to answer for. Scotland is covered completely so you can go anywhere more or less so it's perfectly possible to do it. Luckily Instavolt seem to be throwing in chargers all over the place so I'm hoping they're going to start on Wales.

 

[Byker28i]

Therein lies the problem. When I'm away on a photography trip I'm trying to drive for 4-5 hours at least before I take a break. But you're right it needs massive investment in the infrastructure before electric cars will move forward. There are 18 charging location in Pembrokeshire at the moment.

All slow 7Kw ones at best, you have to get to the M4 services for the fast ones. It's possible but you end up planning the routes around charging points.

 

[cambsno]

2-3 hours driving range, recharge for 20-30 mins whilst you stop for a coffee/break wouldn't be too bad. Fast recharge for 80% of battery would work for most if we had a good network of chargers. Major routes are OK as most are in services, but other places have poor coverage.
There are four main EV charging types: Slow (up to 3kW) which is best suited for 6-8 hours overnight; Fast (7-22kW) which can fully recharge some models in 3-4 hours; and Rapid AC and DC (43-50kW) which are able to provide an 80% charge in around 30 minutes.
t

People don't always want to stop for breaks, plus you know what will happen, turn up and 2 of the charging points will be out of order, the rest will all be taken up so that will mean a longer wait.

What happens when you run out of juice - people do but can just get a can of fuel and off you go!

Until petrol stations have enough 'electric pumps' similar in number to they have now, which can add 200 miles in 5 minutes then it will just not work.

 

[neil_g]

Tesla is massive. The model X seats 7. Leaf is a normal 5 seater. The Soul is the same size as the normal Soul and that seats 5.

The best answer right now is the PHEV. You have two cars in one. Electric drive for in city use and engine for out of city. That can go anywhere. All of the benefits and none of the limitations of pure electric.

A colleague has a mitsi phev. Has awful economy.

 

[Donnie]

Yep, i looked into the mitsubishi phev and after a lot of research including joining a few forums and facebook groups of owners it was obvious it was a non starter. basically the electric motor will only get you about 25-30 miles on one charge :-/

 

[neil_g]

Yup you end up using the 2.0 petrol most of the time which does about 30mpg on a good day.

 

[Byker28i]

So we're into -
all electric aren't there yet unless you do local short journeys
Diesels - now said to be polluting things but everyones had years of experience of great MPG and torque
Petrol engines - modern engines can be economical, less polluting, different power delivery

Hybrids?

 

[srichards]

All the PHEVs are the same. Batteries are only designed for 20-30 miles as that is the average daily mileage... The only one that is better is the Ampera which can do about 50.

I manage about 30mpg in my 3 litre petrol auto. The longer the journeys the more efficient it is.

 

[andya700]

People don't always want to stop for breaks, plus you know what will happen, turn up and 2 of the charging points will be out of order, the rest will all be taken up so that will mean a longer wait.

What happens when you run out of juice - people do but can just get a can of fuel and off you go!

Until petrol stations have enough 'electric pumps' similar in number to they have now, which can add 200 miles in 5 minutes then it will just not work.

This is the reality of the current situation, and I do not think it will change any time soon.
At the moment in my "dirty diesel" (hang your head in shame you naughty car), I can get from home via Eurotunnel to Bordeaux on one tankful, maybe stopping off for a mini picnic at a place of my choosing. The journey is about 570 miles and is quite pleasant.
How would I manage that in an electric car which cost less than £3K nearly 6 years ago? How would I go about planning the route? How much would it cost to charge the car?

 

[srichards]

Bangernomics for EVs is a few years away yet really. Route planning is a bit of an arse but most car manufacturers include charging points in the satnav so they should be able to work out a sensible route. Tesla kind of manage it but the others aren't really there with it.

 

[cambsno]

This is the reality of the current situation, and I do not think it will change any time soon.
At the moment in my "dirty diesel" (hang your head in shame you naughty car), I can get from home via Eurotunnel to Bordeaux on one tankful, maybe stopping off for a mini picnic at a place of my choosing. The journey is about 570 miles and is quite pleasant.
How would I manage that in an electric car which cost less than £3K nearly 6 years ago? How would I go about planning the route? How much would it cost to charge the car?

And we know how crap the government is at planning and infrastructure - successive ones have not addressed NHS, education or housing over recent years with a massively growing population so can we really be confident of them addressing this?

Also, research has shown that the world's 15 largest container ships produce as much pollution as all 760m cars on earth (hard to believe but read it on the web so must be true!) , so as I see so often with pollution we rarely attack the really serious causes (i.e. meat production for climate change).

 

[Paul W. H]

I belive that there are going to be "Real Issues" with re-charging whilst away from home overnight.

I have not as yet seen any charging points at any hotels I have stayed in, so assuming eventually a hotel had 2-3-4 charging points what will happen ? Someone will arrive at the hotel at 6pm and plug-in for a 8 hour charge, are they realistically going to move their car at 2am so someone else can have a top-up, I don't think so.

 

[MatBin]

Many years ago I was coming home from a motorcycle race at Snetterton (spectator not competitor) and my alternator died on me, the bike had an ammeter so I could see how much electricity was discharging and I could calculate how far I would get on what charge remained (bit like Apollo 13, but not quite as dangerous), soon as I turned the lights on the ammeter dropped some more and mental calcs worked out I wouldnt get home, so drive without lights or get get home.
That experience has left me with a deep mistrust of any "fuel" I use in a motor vehicle not being easily replenished. Chicken and egg really, we need more charging points, or replacement battery packs at petrol stations, or more range from the batteries and an answer to the problem Simon raised (how do we charge if we live in a flat/terraced house etc), in addition I believe if we use the electricity in our house the supply circuit is so meagre we'll be left with the choice of charge the car or use the electricity indoors. What happens when 3 million users all plug their cars in at 7pm - will the grid cope in mid-winter.
There are just too many unanswered questions and in general the cars are pig ugly that are causing people to wait and until the uptake is sufficient the infrastructure wont be put in place - as I said chicken and egg.

 

[Byker28i]

Many years ago I was coming home from a motorcycle race at Snetterton (spectator not competitor) and my alternator died on me, the bike had an ammeter so I could see how much electricity was discharging and I could calculate how far I would get on what charge remained (bit like Apollo 13, but not quite as dangerous), soon as I turned the lights on the ammeter dropped some more and mental calcs worked out I wouldnt get home, so drive without lights or get get home.

I've had that, luckily in the daytime, but you can't turn the lights off on modern bikes. You have however forgotten about the battery recovery, in that it's not totally flat when it dies and leave it a while and you've a little more range, in my case enough to get home

 

[MatBin]

I've had that, luckily in the daytime, but you can't turn the lights off on modern bikes. You have however forgotten about the battery recovery, in that it's not totally flat when it dies and leave it a while and you've a little more range, in my case enough to get home

I was 16 at the time (47 years ago - we just about had electric lights then)

 

[the black fox]

during the war ,I said during the war quiet a lot of cars were converted to run on chicken s*** ,which basically is what this thread is about ,headless chickens throwing there arms up in the air and actually believing what the arsewipes in government are are putting across .londons money grabbing mayor and his diesel taxes are just that TAXES designed to fill the coffers so they can have a easy lifestyle .
cause and effect if the whole country switched to electric vehicles overnight watch the price of electricity jump ,you can only make it certain ways its either coal fired ,gas fired, or nuclear energy power stations wind and wave generated electric is unreliable and the infrastructure is at best unreliable and according to a article I read recently it produces the wrong type of electric anyway .
trouble is in this country we tend to believe what we are told/fed information wise honest ,truthful politicians are like dodo eggs ,same with t.v personalities all have there own private agenda ,coming back to wind power anyone that is a wildlife lover and lives near the sea will know that off shore wind farms are killing a ever increasing number of seabirds ,,why because the way there built causes calm water lagoons between them and shelter for the fishes ,the birds come in to feed on the fish and the rotors hit them ..

anyone got a couple of chickens spare

 

[Nod]

EVs produce no tail pipe emissions so imagine how clean the air would be if they made up the bulk of cars on the road?

While EV's produce no emissions at the point of use, they do need to get their power from somewhere and the chances are that that's still a fossil fuelled generating plant.

Tesla is a non starter. They can't produce them quickly enough and they are silly money. Soul and Leaf boot space too small and look as though they've been battered with the ugly stick.

I've had a spin in the new Mini Countryman hybrid and quite liked the drive in that. It's not stupid money either in comparision with the rest of the range. Still not a great looking car though.

If/when Tesla get their battery supplies sorted, they should be able to speed up production. The S is silly expensive but the 3 should be more sensibly priced, although with the 3, I believe you'll need to pay for the fast charge that the S gets included.

Bangernomics for EVs is a few years away yet really.

Not sure I like the idea of bangernomics where potentially explosive batteries are involved.

What happens when 3 million users all plug their cars in at 7pm - will the grid cope in mid-winter.

Same as happens at 1/2 time when 1/2 the country apparently switches on their kettles.

Not sure how feasible solar charging is here in the UK. A friend with an electric moped charges it from solar panels but he has a hotel roof full of 'em and is significantly closer to the equator!