Did you get paid, Did you get paid, Did you get paid????

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My opinion on this is very strong.
My argument to support my views is very good,
 
ding76uk said:
SO he got paid, and you got exploited and you're happy about it?

I know having your photo published is nice, but surely do you not think you should have been paid for your image?

I don't get the attitude, of didn't get paid and don't care, seems like this forum is full of rich people who do not need extra money to buy things like more gear.:bang:
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Why should you care if you don't get paid. What you don't seem to get is people do photography for a hobby, and have other jobs. Do you not do anything you enjoy as a hobby?
 
A bit of a strange paradox the never ending threads regarding protecting the
living of professional photographers (nothing wrong in that all)

I have never commented or joined in the discussions before, but have read the mosts of the threads on the subject and sat on the sidelines digesting both sides of the debate i would offer the following observation.

On the pro side of the debate seems to mainly include the 2 following points.
Dont give any photographs for free
Dont sell them cheaply.
Both of the above will result in pro togs either being put out of business or devaluing their work making it harder to make a living out of it.
Fair enough its a sound argument and dont dissagree with it and dont blame them for defending their income, long may they stay in business and continue to feed their family.

But in the same business are the retail shops in the UK also trying to make a living and feed their familys, not many seem to defend them.
How many pro togs buy their equipment from abroad because its cheaper and avoid paying vat if they can.
Many times i have read that UK retail shops are ripping us off because they are dearer than the same goods that can be got from abroad.
Many times i have read members being advised to to buy from traders that deal from abroad saving vat or benefitting from a favourable exchange rate
making the goods cheaper than UK shops.
Fair enough its a sound argument as well, after all we are trying to get the best the best deal we can, i would if i felt the need.

Seems a strange parodox that anyone who gives their photographs away for free or sells them cheaply is being jumped on which will ultimately put pro togs out of business, but nobody jumps on anyone that buys their equipment
from abroad which will ultimately put UK retail shops out of business and their employees out of work.

Not arguing for one or the other, merely a personal observation and would like to see pro togs continuing to make a decent living and the UK shops to continue in business.Both are in the same game after all:)
 
I posted a thread a few months ago about doing free footy shots for my local rag and got slaterd for it but that's history,anyhow I missed last weeks match because of family business and the paper are now chasing me to check that I will be at this weeks match.

So the question is should I now start a discussion with them about remuneration
 
I must admit I started off like this when I got into photography....purely from lack of knowledge etc and understanding.

Now I see that giving things away is just lowering the 'specialness' of the photography world. Make it less and less of a master technique.

When I look at my kit I think bloody hell I have 4k for of kit!! WOW!! Im shooting really well every things going great.

THEN, I think.....Hmmm....Pro kits value compared to mine??? Priceless experience compared to mine??? Experience alone is worth the value of photography no matter how much kit some one has.

I would love to be out there more doing pics for clients, at the moment I do a few bits and bobs, for friends and friends friends etc, I do charge, but I let them know I am an amature/hobbiest first.

Lets keep Photography a fine specialised art.
 
CaptainPenguin said:
I posted a thread a few months ago about doing free footy shots for my local rag and got slaterd for it but that's history,anyhow I missed last weeks match because of family business and the paper are now chasing me to check that I will be at this weeks match.

So the question is should I now start a discussion with them about remuneration
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You know the answer to that one.
 
Do you charge as much as a pro though? If not are you really helping to keep photography a fine specialised art?
Should all pros decide how much photography is valued or should the market decide?
Unless all pros are charging the same for images then surely the one with the cheapest prices is devaluing the market.
The argument then is that maybe his work does not match up to the more expensive togs. But the same must be said when comparing someone giving images free.

mmm... think this has all been said.

Hoppy has pointed out that the market is changing and people must adapt and change with it. He is right.

One contributing factor to so many people having photography as a hobby must be the advent of digital imaging. Does that have an affect on any other businesses?
 
Good self promotion though CaptainPenguin; give a little and charge for more, it's classic marketing theory. The only problem crops up when the supply exceeds the demand; when there are too many people willing to give a little so they just take a little from everyone!

I'm very amateur and the only photos people have been interested in are those taken at events where I don't have the rights to sell the photos - five or six websites used my images from centre court at Wimbledon this summer. Would be nice to be able to sell, but not sure my non-event photos have the required level of demand. Flickr also makes finsing alternatives very easy.

So does anyone know how you can get the rights to sell photos from events you've been a spectator at - are the events people willing to take a cut or does that screw over their accedited togs...errr, oh crap... think I may need to duck and cover after this question!!!
 
ding76uk said:
SO he got paid, and you got exploited and you're happy about it?

I know having your photo published is nice, but surely do you not think you should have been paid for your image?

I don't get the attitude, of didn't get paid and don't care, seems like this forum is full of rich people who do not need extra money to buy things like more gear.:bang:
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You could look at it like that except I work for a very cash strapped charity, who really appreciated the publicity the image raised. The professional Tog had been employed by a partnership agency - we would have had to have paid for the images from the tog of our own use as you would expect from soemone there making money.

I was chuffed to have my picture used, hobbies are just that for fun not money if everything is all about money it looses its fun.

I was not bothered about being paid for it - technically as I was being paid my salary for the day you could argue I was paid as a tog for the day :clap::clap:
 
starkersclark said:
They get 'attacked' because some people do rely on photography to pay the bills and if papers etc know they don't have to pay it becomes harder to earn a living.

Imagine if you did want to earn a living from it but couldn't because people are prepared to work for free so no one wanted to pay you?
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The price is right, welcome to the free market. Basically, your only solutions are
a. complain on forums
b. make sure your quality is better than theirs
c. make sure your price is better than theirs
d. find another source of income
 
Haven't got time to read all the posts so sorry at the risk of repeating.
Anyone giving away their pictures to a Trinity Mirror publication think on.
Chief Exec Sly Bailey got paid £1.68M (http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2010/apr/07/trinity-mirror-sly-bailey-pay)

Does she give away her skills for nothing??

For a small ego boost, media companies are taking the public for mugs, as all free submitted pictures do are increase their profit margins.
Payment with bylines do not bring in extra work, giving away your pictures does not give you a foot in the door.
I've run a picture desk for a couple of newspapers, and not once did we ring a amateur photographer who had submitted pictures to us, to go and do more jobs for us.

If you want to give away your pictures, I'll set up a FTP, send them to me and I'll sell them on your behalf. You may get a byline, but the main thing I may get rich ;)

Right or wrong, it is a fact of life these days but the sad thing is, in the last 10 years the quality of published work has gone down here's just one example...(Aplologies to the photographer who covered the job if you had a flashgun problem, but maybe a bit of PS tweaking would have helped.)

http://www.pontefractandcastlefordexpress.co.uk/news/mp_takes_express_petition_to_ministry_1_1564736
 
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ding76uk said:
I don't get the attitude, of didn't get paid and don't care
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I shall try to explain.

It is a hobby for lots of people, including me. Not a job. I fund my gear purchases from my job. I have no desire to use photography as a revenue source.

If I go out and spend the day taking photos it is time I have dedicated to one of my hobbies for which I do not expect any return. If someone wants to publish one of them I'll almost certainly say yes and will decline payment if it is offered.

Why will I decline payment? Because if I accept payment I am no longer an amateur and the insurance on my equipment (via my house contents) is strictly unpaid amateur use only. So I'd have to get separate additional insurance, costing me money. I'd have to complete a tax return, something I don't need to do currently. Unless I was offered a four figure sum (some chance) for a photo the aggravation created by accepting it means it is not worth it to me.

Do you get that?

My other hobby is motorsport. I compete and have won class awards at fairly major events in my discipline. I don't get paid for that, I am again entirely self funded. You could say I'm good at it and I do it for free. Reading your signature, should I not? No-one would pay me to do it, so it sounds like I should give up. I'm sure Jenson Button isn't bothered that I fund my own motorsport out of my salary without being paid to do it.

I have also been known to fix cars for friends and family. For free. Because I am a moderately competent amateur mechanic and they are my friends / family. Should I not do this either? Strangely, I don't get pro mechanics moaning at me for working on my own or other people's cars. They seem to understand that you don't need to work in a garage to have an interest in mechanicing and a desire to do it without it being a full time job.
 
Edtog said:
Right or wrong, it is a fact of life these days but the sad thing is, in the last 10 years the quality of published work has gone down here's just one example...(Aplologies to the photographer who covered the job had a flashgun problem, but maybe a bit of PS tweaking would have helped.)

http://www.pontefractandcastlefordexpress.co.uk/news/mp_takes_express_petition_to_ministry_1_1564736
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True. That is a pretty bad photo. But then again, that story is a one minute read and the photo is just there because the webpage would boring without one. One could have easily swapped in a photo of a few stacked books on a desk and it would have had the same effect plus saving time and energy spent on finding the MP and taking a picture.
 
"Why will I decline payment? Because if I accept payment I am no longer an amateur "

Mark not sure that I agree where you are coming from I am the resident photographer at my local very semi pro football club and I take the photo's to go on the club website,if however someone wants to pay me for shots that I already have taken for pleasure then thats a bonus,in the same way I have submitted some of my Steam Railway shots to magazines occasionally and have made a small ammount of money out of that.
However I do not go touting for business I just take the oppurtunity to make a few (and I mean a few) quid then thats a bonus but as far as I am concerned I am still very much an amateur.
 
CaptainPenguin said:
"Why will I decline payment? Because if I accept payment I am no longer an amateur "

Mark not sure that I agree where you are coming from I am the resident photographer at my local very semi pro football club and I take the photo's to go on the club website,if however someone wants to pay me for shots that I already have taken for pleasure then thats a bonus,in the same way I have submitted some of my Steam Railway shots to magazines occasionally and have made a small ammount of money out of that.
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Perhaps I should have said "no longer an amateur in the eyes of my insurer", which is the important point. I specifically asked them about my photographic equipment when I took out the policy and if the accidental damage and away from home cover applied etc, they stated that provided I was strictly amateur and didn't get paid for anything related to photography then yes it did. As soon as I take money then it doesn't.

I have no intention of attempting to defraud them, so I give away full sized jpgs to people I know if I have taken pictures of them at motorsport events.
 
CaptainPenguin said:
"Why will I decline payment? Because if I accept payment I am no longer an amateur "

Mark not sure that I agree where you are coming from I am the resident photographer at my local very semi pro football club and I take the photo's to go on the club website,if however someone wants to pay me for shots that I already have taken for pleasure then thats a bonus,in the same way I have submitted some of my Steam Railway shots to magazines occasionally and have made a small ammount of money out of that.
However I do not go touting for business I just take the oppurtunity to make a few (and I mean a few) quid then thats a bonus but as far as I am concerned I am still very much an amateur.
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Out of interest I assume you've declared this 'few quid' to the taxman as required?
 
I'll be the first to say that this thread has changed my opinion - I've read the whole thing and there have been sensible arguments on both sides.

Before this I would have given a picture away and been happy for publication, now I really don't believe I would. You're right, if they earn money from my efforts why shouldn't I.

However I would add that this is an individual choice and if someone else chooses to give away their photos then I can't really make judgements on them - they own them.
 
gingerweasel said:
I'll be the first to say that this thread has changed my opinion - I've read the whole thing and there have been sensible arguments on both sides.

Before this I would have given a picture away and been happy for publication, now I really don't believe I would. You're right, if they earn money from my efforts why shouldn't I.

However I would add that this is an individual choice and if someone else chooses to give away their photos then I can't really make judgements on them - they own them.
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It was a similar thread ijn the past that changed my mind

But in bold is what I think is most important - they are our photographs to do with as we please (in most cases). So if someone is happy that they got published congratulate them. If you think they should have got paid, if you think their freebie devaules photography, explain it in a way that might actually get taken on board.

The 'get paid' question gets asked, in fact expected in 'published' threads that often now that people could be forgiven for mistaking TP for an elitist group. We're not, I know that - best not to put that impression across eh?
 
I think it massively depends on who is getting the images and what would they do if they didn't get them.

I don't agree with giving the bbc or corporations like that images for free who directly sell the media using them.

But giving photos to friends and family or locally funded papers etc that barely earn a penny is fine in my opinion. I'm going to a friends christening this weekend, she doesn't have a photographer booked for it, I'll likely take my camera and any decent shots I get I'll give to her. I'm sure she'll be very grateful. If I didn't take my camera, there would be no shots - since she has no intention of hiring a photographer. So nobody is out of pocket - if she was going to hire a photographer and I told her not to and that I would do it instead, then I can see how the professional would be annoyed at that.
 
joescrivens said:
if you are referring to the comment by Thomas Chan, I agree completely
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The comment by Ian Griffiths was good too (wonder if he is on here).

Anyhow been reading, lurking and I'm an amateur, however, I can completely see where the pro-togs are coming from on this one. Most of the places who try to get free photos etc are profit making organisations. The local newspaper, the BBC, that local company in the High Street etc etc - they are all in business to make money - not to make people feel warm and fuzzy. As such their remit is to widen their profit margins as much as possible and therefore they are going to try and get something for nothing. If someone gives it to them for nothing then it is just going to perpetuate their views - if everyone wanted to be paid then yes they would have to pay out some money (and get a lower profit margin).

I worked on a local newspaper years ago and we used to use free photos if they came in. Of course we would use them, the main role for a local newspaper is to make a profit - therefore you cram the paper full of names of people and photos of them - they then buy the paper to see their name and the more people you can get to buy then the bigger the advertising revenue. When using free photos - we never kept the name of the photographer, half the time by the time the paper went to press everyone had forgotten who had submitted it anyhow - and no-one really cared. It was just a freebie that we didnt have to pay for and might be able to make some cash off.

Anyhow long winded but I come down on the camp of getting paid for what you do - there though may be exceptions... that local charity that you support who you know desperately needs money and publicity etc.

I'm currently in IT but even then I dont give out freebie websites etc - friends though do pay a reduced rate - time is money at the end of the day and if you give out everything for nothing then people will not respect what you are doing
 
joescrivens said:
I think it massively depends on who is getting the images and what would they do if they didn't get them.

I don't agree with giving the bbc or corporations like that images for free who directly sell the media using them.

But giving photos to friends and family or locally funded papers etc that barely earn a penny is fine in my opinion. I'm going to a friends christening this weekend, she doesn't have a photographer booked for it, I'll likely take my camera and any decent shots I get I'll give to her. I'm sure she'll be very grateful. If I didn't take my camera, there would be no shots - since she has no intention of hiring a photographer. So nobody is out of pocket - if she was going to hire a photographer and I told her not to and that I would do it instead, then I can see how the professional would be annoyed at that.
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This.
 
hmmmm tricky one,
would it be better (from the people that think you should charge) if amateurs charged a low price, they are still charging so companies know that they wont get anything for free. from the amateurs side, there still likely to get published (if everyone charged a small amount) and they get a bit of money that they can put towards there next piece of kit to improve there hobby.
 
I would not give my shots away for nothing they mean too much to me
not saying anyone would pay for them anyway though:D
Pete
 
Llama said:
hmmmm tricky one,
would it be better (from the people that think you should charge) if amateurs charged a low price, they are still charging so companies know that they wont get anything for free. from the amateurs side, there still likely to get published (if everyone charged a small amount) and they get a bit of money that they can put towards there next piece of kit to improve there hobby.
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The problem is.. you/we/anyone can't get that message to every amatuer in the country.. or the world.. in fact only a small percentage which isnt going to amke a difference because they would be replaced by the far bigger percentage.. thus things will never change..

If it was possible to contact the millions of possible photogrpahers who might offer a pic for free then I could understand why poeple bang on about it.. but theres no chance so we need to roll wiht it.. understand and adapt...
 
really can't be arsed to read through all of this thread but in response to the op as you've said there are varying types of photographer using this site

point being all types can add their 2p whether it for or against giving away images
can't really dictate that those who aren't keen on it keep their mouths shut
 
I'm with Kipax.

Which side of the argument you come down is moot anyway. Amateurs will give away their pictures for nothing (or just credit). Deal with it.
 
Back in 1980 I had a picture on the front page of the local evening paper of an accident between a train and a car at the local station, 2 men in the car survived the crash.

A few days later I received a cheque for £40.00 from the paper and a thank you note.

Not managed to repeat the process since then.

On a side issue Timmy (Timmygcsc2308) mentioned a picture of a Ferris wheel being printed in a local paper, Timmy for your first printed picture that is impressive, was it taken hand held or did you use a tripod? Well done.


John:)
 
It seems the professionals get up in arms at the thought of an amature who is not in it for the money and simply gets a kick out of seeing their photos published or the thanks of a friend they have provided some photos to.

I am not interested in the money yet when i mention I might submit a photo to a publication and not ask for any money suddenly I am told to seek help and I'm suffering from low self esteem. That i have a ego problem and a whole host of other childish insults.

If the professionals don't like amatures giving work away for free so what, who are they to dictate how anyone uses the market.

They argue that giving work for free makes it more difficult for them to sell their work but why should an amature sacrifice the thrill of seeing their work published just because someone has chosen to make a living from it. Is this vain or self centred, perhaps yes but is that really any less of a reason than getting paid?

The professionals have to get over themselves, digital photograophy has revolutionised the market place and although as a profession i don't beleive it will ever become completley obsolete I can see it shrinking enormously the same way as many other professions have disappeared due to new inovations and changing technologies.
 
Tom Harper said:
It seems the professionals get up in arms at the thought of an amature who is not in it for the money and simply gets a kick out of seeing their photos published or the thanks of a friend they have provided some photos to.

I am not interested in the money yet when i mention I might submit a photo to a publication and not ask for any money suddenly I am told to seek help and I'm suffering from low self esteem. That i have a ego problem and a whole host of other childish insults.

If the professionals don't like amatures giving work away for free so what, who are they to dictate how anyone uses the market.

They argue that giving work for free makes it more difficult for them to sell their work but why should an amature sacrifice the thrill of seeing their work published just because someone has chosen to make a living from it. Is this vain or self centred, perhaps yes but is that really any less of a reason than getting paid?

The professionals have to get over themselves, digital photograophy has revolutionised the market place and although as a profession i don't beleive it will ever become completley obsolete I can see it shrinking enormously the same way as many other professions have disappeared due to new inovations and changing technologies.
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Seriously...you've already had one thread closed within 30mins of posting it...want to make it 2 in a row?!
 
jamesb84 said:
Seriously...you've already had one thread closed within 30mins of posting it...want to make it 2 in a row?!
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The thread was closed because it was in the wrong forum and on that thread i was pointed to this one. If you have nothing meaningfull to add to the debate then its probably better you don't waste your time posting.
 
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