Did you get paid, Did you get paid, Did you get paid????

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Ahhh! a fun thread at last :D
What some people need to remember is that amateurs do it purely for the pleasure and if that means a 'warm fuzzy feeling' from seeing their pics in print then they've got what they wanted from the pic! If you do it for dosh and get a nice cheque and then get that 'warm fuzzy feeling' then good for you as you got what you wanted :cool:
 
so where do the people ,who want to learn, go then?
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at the risk of sounding far far older than I obviously am, the same places we all went to before the internet stopped people going outside. ;)
 
I am a fairly newcomer to photography and have been lucky enough to sell some images so far, but I have also given some of my images for free to a local charity. I have my name on my images even though I'm not a pro and although this is my watermark for protection I don't see why people get so upset about it?:shrug:
I can also see though why pros get upset to see their income being reduced due to the higher number of images "free to a good home" for the feel good factor from amateur togs. Competition is one thing and I encourage that, but I wouldn't be happy if someone set up in my field of business giving away the same products we manufacture. I don't think we'd be in business long.
We all have a passion for our photography and spend a lot of time, effort and money getting the images we're happy to offer to the world, so why give them away? The people benefiting are the companies using the images for promotional purposes more often than not. :shrug:
 
dazzajl said:
at the risk of sounding far far older than I obviously am, the same places we all went to before the internet stopped people going outside. ;)
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Ah, but that needed effort and commitment,see where i`m heading................:)
 
dazzajl said:
I think that as a working snapper, if you're worried about someone with next to no experience taking your work away, you really need to up your game or get another job. You just make yourself look foolish moaning here.
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The more common issue here is the one that I mentioned earlier... uncle bob with his big camera does the job at work, telling his boss not to bother looking for a professional, does a (typically) poor job of it, but the pictures are 'good enough' because hey, they were free after all.

Lose lose situation for everyone - the business is shown in a poor light, boss is unhappy, uncle bob is probably slightly disappointed, and if not, goes home and watermarks the photos with 'firstname lastname photography' and posts them on his 'portfolio' site and adds them to 200 flickr groups to stroke his ego with 'great shot!' comments.

Ditto family portraits (man there are occasionally some horrendous examples of how not to use a bleeding lastolite hilite posted...) and event photos.


Bah.


Oh, and for the record, I regularly donate work to charities or causes or whatever that I genuinely support, and also get great portfolio material from this work with them. OTOH, I also have a major client who is a charitable organisation.
 
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Very thorny issue this. Personally I can see an argument for both sides.

What about small-time hobby type publications that produce books that are more for the love of the subject than to make lost of money. Is it wrong to give them a few images in return for a free copy of the book or something? I know a lot of aviation photographers who are very very good but do it as a hobby and will give images away to hobby publications as it's a small community really and we are all in it for the love of aviation.


The second point is this - Could we be seeing a winding down of the photography industry? In some areas of photography an amateur with good gear and knowledge can take as good a photo as a pro. What would someone who can get these images for free not do so. Maybe it's that some areas of photography are just not ones that people are willing to pay the prices for images that they were a few years ago.

Maybe some areas are ones where pros are no longer needed. Photography can by and large be learnt so maybe by this very fact it's losing some people an income. Job sectors that are safe from this amateur invasion are ones where you have to be trained to do the job at all. To build a massive bridge you have to be trained as a Civil Engineer.

I'm not trying to take side, just thinking aloud. I'm just trying to start out down the road to becoming a pro but these are some of the thoughts I've had in the past about the industry.
 
wippers said:
I can also see though why pros get upset to see their income being reduced due to the higher number of images "free to a good home" for the feel good factor from amateur togs. Competition is one thing and I encourage that, but I wouldn't be happy if someone set up in my field of business giving away the same products we manufacture. I don't think we'd be in business long.
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The thing is if that product was as good as yours, it would get paid for. Maybe not the first time but anyone who gets images used regularly in the commercial arena is going to start charging as soon as they realise they make the grade and the buzz of being published for free fades. All markets are mostly self regulating in these matters.

itsdavedotnet said:
The more common issue here is the one that I mentioned earlier... uncle bob with his big camera does the job at work, telling his boss not to bother looking for a professional, does a (typically) poor job of it, but the pictures are 'good enough' because hey, they were free after all.

Lose lose situation for everyone
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......or a chance to get a competitor to take advantage and spend on some really high quality advertising??
 
Splog said:
Ahhh! a fun thread at last :D
What some people need to remember is that amateurs do it purely for the pleasure and if that means a 'warm fuzzy feeling' from seeing their pics in print then they've got what they wanted from the pic! If you do it for dosh and get a nice cheque and then get that 'warm fuzzy feeling' then good for you as you got what you wanted :cool:
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I meantioned the "warm fuzzy feeling" thing so thought I should mention... I'm an amateur :nuts:. I have been paid exactly 0.28p to date out of photography :lol:

I can see it from a pros perspective though. Same happened to me in IT years ago. Used to fix a few PCs, develop a wee application here and there, help someone network their 2/3 PCs etc. Then some dude nearby who was a hobbyist started just doing it for people for free. And that was the end of that for me. I literally never got a penny from any of that work again. And I'll add, his work was rubbish, he had to revisit more jobs than he did.

Anyway, it doesn't bother me either way. I don't make a living out of photography so I'm not affected, but I'll definitely not let anyone use my stuff for free. If they like it enough to publish it they'll pay for it.
 
itsdavedotnet said:
The more common issue here is the one that I mentioned earlier... uncle bob with his big camera does the job at work, telling his boss not to bother looking for a professional, does a (typically) poor job of it, but the pictures are 'good enough' because hey, they were free after all.

Lose lose situation for everyone - the business is shown in a poor light, boss is unhappy, uncle bob is probably slightly disappointed, and if not, goes home and watermarks the photos with 'firstname lastname photography' and posts them on his 'portfolio' site and adds them to 200 flickr groups to stroke his ego with 'great shot!' comments.
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:D I did this very thing today! ... I took a few shots of a product / process that may be used in an info sheet as part of a product catalogue and I won't get a penny extra for doing it! ... My point being, they knew I could get a good enough set of shots, would they have employed a pro to do it? absolutely not!
 
Splog said:
:D I did this very thing today! ... I took a few shots of a product / process that may be used in an info sheet as part of a product catalogue and I won't get a penny extra for doing it! ... My point being, they knew I could get a good enough set of shots, would they have employed a pro to do it? absolutely not!
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They didn`t need to though did they,some clown did it for nothing...................:lol:
 
fracster said:
They didn`t need to though did they,some clown did it for nothing...................:lol:
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:lol: Nah! ... I get well paid :razz: (just didn't get anything extra)
 
Lots of finger pointing going on, from the usual suspects ;)

How about pointing the finger at yourself, because we are all consumers. That is what is driving the economy, and driving the various publishing business models within it.

Publishers use free photos because they are either as good as paid for ones, or good enough to do the job. Only a fool would pay for something where there is no business return, no benefit, no gain. The problem is not that amateurs give stuff away for free, it is that the professional's work is not sufficienly better to be worth paying for.

The pros on here need to look beyond the end of their lenses and see the bigger consumer picture. And apply the same business principles that they use in their own work and their own lives. Photography, and publishing, is no different, no more immune to change.

And stop winging on this free website and go buy a newspaper. Write a letter to the editor, by hand, put a stamp on it and post it off snail mail :thumbsdown:
 
I think this thread is representative of the state of the forum. People wanting a pat on the back and some nice shot comments and not wanting to confront criticism or when they may have been taken advantage of. If you are giving free photos to a 'hard up' commercial organisation then more fool you. I would even be careful entering competitions as some will have rules that mean they can use your photo for their purposes.

I certainly wouldn't want to lose the input from our resident pros, otherwise we would just end up with a bunch of threads praising photos taken with a kit lens, on a camera on green square mode with the in built flash popped up.

Or perhaps I am just bitter because I don't take photos good enough to earn money!
 
menthel said:
snip/

Or perhaps I am just bitter because I don't take photos good enough to earn money!
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That depends on whether you take photos to earn money? or take photos for pleasure and to enjoy others seeing them :thinking:
 
EMA747 said:
Very thorny issue this. Personally I can see an argument for both sides.

What about small-time hobby type publications that produce books that are more for the love of the subject than to make lost of money. Is it wrong to give them a few images in return for a free copy of the book or something? I know a lot of aviation photographers who are very very good but do it as a hobby and will give images away to hobby publications as it's a small community really and we are all in it for the love of aviation.
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I know a few small volume hobby magazines that run on a subscription only basis and work on the basis that published material (written and/or photographs) is rewarded with credits towards the subscription (e.g. MTI). For these low volume love-of-the-hobby publications there is no alternative as there is no cash to pay with.

And do you see the vicar of Upper Nosebleed paying for a shot of Lady Cynthia Gussett opening the fete to put in a Parish magazine that's only read by three parishioners, Dr Pickles, the postmistress and Mad Bob who get's a copy sent to him in HMP Broadmoor by his mother (bless her cotton socks)?

I think the choice of the BBC website may have been a supremely bad example by the OP - it's so vague as it covers the readers shots of the sunset for the weather, amateur coverage of new events and even the Countryfile competition. As a bad example it only polarises the discussion further (we all read into it what we want) when there is a valid point to be made on a very different level.
 
Splog said:
That depends on whether you take photos to earn money? or take photos for pleasure and to enjoy others seeing them :thinking:
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Luckily the latter. Although I am not sure it's pleasurable for those viewing. I get the impression my efforts are the photographic equivalent of Vogon poetry.
 
menthel said:
Luckily the latter. Although I am not sure it's pleasurable for those viewing. I get the impression my efforts are the photographic equivalent of Vogon poetry.
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That mordiously hath bitled out
Its earted jurtles
Into a rancid festering [drowned out by moaning and screaming]
Now the jurpling slayjid agrocrustles
Are slurping hagrilly up the axlegrurts
And living glupules frart and slipulate
Like jowling meated liverslime
Groop, I implore thee, my foonting turlingdromes
And hooptiously drangle me
With crinkly bindlewurdles,
Or else I shall rend thee in the gobberwarts with my blurglecruncheon
See if I don't.

Sounds good to me :D
 
awp said:
That is the point - if amateurs continue to give work away then there won't be anyone prepared to pay! It's happening already - rates for pro work are dropping. Getting published for free is nothing I'm afraid. They are being taken advantage of and just to vain to see it.
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It depends on the context, ie whether its a good high profile news item or just a by line in a local rag, seeing as most local rags seem to have done away with photographers a long time ago by kitting reporters out with a DSLR and telling them to get on with it, all it does is save him or her a job and does no one out of any money.

Obviously with a larger story where syndication might be possible of your exclusive photograph then I agree they should sell it and most would ask for cash.

The bbc news site is a very poor example as its like asking for cash for sending in a readers letter, if they then took a photo from the readers photo's and used it to illustrate and article or news item then they should be paying for the privilege.

I was mainly talking about magazines - readers photo's and local rags etc

itsdavedotnet said:
The more common issue here is the one that I mentioned earlier... uncle bob with his big camera does the job at work, telling his boss not to bother looking for a professional, does a (typically) poor job of it, but the pictures are 'good enough' because hey, they were free after all.

Lose lose situation for everyone - the business is shown in a poor light, boss is unhappy, uncle bob is probably slightly disappointed, and if not, goes home and watermarks the photos with 'firstname lastname photography' and posts them on his 'portfolio' site and adds them to 200 flickr groups to stroke his ego with 'great shot!' comments.

Ditto family portraits (man there are occasionally some horrendous examples of how not to use a bleeding lastolite hilite posted...) and event photos.


Bah.


Oh, and for the record, I regularly donate work to charities or causes or whatever that I genuinely support, and also get great portfolio material from this work with them. OTOH, I also have a major client who is a charitable organisation.
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No one would argue with that, its common sense, though there are plenty of amateurs more than capable of doing such work, they just choose not to go pro.
 
I think alot of this angst must be because we're such a relatively new profession. If we were, say the oldest profession I don't think doing for money what the great majority only do for passion would be such a coveted honour.
 
When you make photography your profession you should realise photography is a lot of peoples hobby and are going to "give away" pictures.
 
dazzajl said:
I think alot of this angst must be because we're such a relatively new profession. If we were, say the oldest profession I don't think doing for money what the great majority only do for passion would be such a coveted honour.
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leave bakers out of it :p
 
dazzajl said:
I think alot of this angst must be because we're such a relatively new profession. If we were, say the oldest profession I don't think doing for money what the great majority only do for passion would be such a coveted honour.
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Passion? .... what's that all about? ... :thinking:
 
You get it in most technological professionals. Adept or die. Don't spend your time being spiteful to other members, because your profession is their hobby. Spend your time working out a business plan to be successful at your job. In the end, it's not our problem if your company doesn't work out, nor is it our issue. What some pro's fail to realise is that photography doesn't revolve around them. Just because they make money, doesn't mean they can stop people enjoying themselves, and getting a warm fuzzy feeling when they have a photo printed in a paper.
 
stormcrow said:
I made a loaf of bread last week and gave to an elderly neighbour for free.
My local pro baker is absolutely livid with me!!!!!!!! ;)
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I've cooked for friends before. There is a chef probably livid with me as well!
 
That makes you sick?

I really really really need to hold back typing what i want to say, trust me i have wrote five different paragraphs out now and deleted them all. But one last thing before i go.

Did you get paid? For starting this thread :)
 
awp said:
That is the point - if amateurs continue to give work away then there won't be anyone prepared to pay! It's happening already - rates for pro work are dropping. Getting published for free is nothing I'm afraid. They are being taken advantage of and just to vain to see it.
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oh I think thats a mighty unfair comment..you're basically saying amateurs are driving the price of pro work down? :shake: putting economic climate aside, photography is much more accessible for a myriad of reasons including prices of kit continually dropping, more awareness and guides on t'internet and even schools and colleges offering much easier access to courses, degrees and qualifications. Thus, end result is influx of professional photographers, more competition, cheaper prices. Not saying 'free work' doesn't affect prices, but maybe you should start by looking at the people in your own profession driving down the prices to win business first.
Relating to my profession, IT, I've done it for about 7 years now (from college) but my old skool BNC/serial/UNIX/Windows 3.11 colleagues always relate to me how computers were a black art and you'd have to pay extortionate prices even by todays standards for simple work simply because true pros were few and far between and computer systems were less accessible. Now any man and his dog can buy a £300 PC and learn how to use it, go on an IT course and pass themselves off as an IT engineer :thumbsdown: at work we have had it quite a few times when one of our customers has gone away saying ooh you charge far too much, Joe Bloggs down the road will do it for half that price, they usually come back tail between legs because our service is much more professional because we are pros. Professional competition drives down prices, not amatuers..and tbh your argument is like comparing a high street electronics retailer to a Sunday market seller flogging a few TV's, sure Comet might lose a few sales but in the grand scheme of things? the better comparison would be a high street retailer to an online only etailer because thats where the real threat to high street stores comes from. Likewise your biggest threat as a pro togger is from a kid who has done a GCSE in photography, got himself a £500 SLR and £500 worth of glass and a cracked copy of Photoshop and charges half your prices...not hobbyists.

And on a final note whats the issue with a true hobbyist having one or two pics published and being proud of it? the first time you got something published were you more proud of your acheivement or the paycheck in your pocket? photography is a hobby for some and a profession for others - as something you do for a living you shouldn't be suprised if your work is good enough to be published, whereas a hobbyist most of the time will be proud that the dedication and effort put into a passion has brought about something other than a few family and friends saying oh thats a nice picture dear

You get it in most technological professionals. Adept or die. Don't spend your time being spiteful to other members, because your profession is their hobby. Spend your time working out a business plan to be successful at your job. In the end, it's not our problem if your company doesn't work out, nor is it our issue. What some pro's fail to realise is that photography doesn't revolve around them. Just because they make money, doesn't mean they can stop people enjoying themselves, and getting a warm fuzzy feeling when they have a photo printed in a paper.
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word
 
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that depends where it is. if its on the BBC no, but if its in a uk circular magazine or paper etc then yes. Not everyone strives to get paid for their pictures a lot of people are happy just to see it in print. Therefore I say when will people like you understand that :wave:

awp said:
Sam - when will you and people like you realise that getting published without getting paid is NOT an achievement - it's a RIP OFF!
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I do scientific work for free, I'm not taking work away from anyone. In fact I'm strengthing my CV because I'll have more experience and publications that someone who has not.

Certain people have to realise we are living in a free economy as such if someone wants to hand over their pictures for free they are entitled to do so.



The people you should be moaning at are the companys that take the images for free.


starkersclark said:
They get 'attacked' because some people do rely on photography to pay the bills and if papers etc know they don't have to pay it becomes harder to earn a living.

Imagine if you did want to earn a living from it but couldn't because people are prepared to work for free so no one wanted to pay you?
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only in your mind they do.

awp said:
Aldi don't give stuff away for free. I can cope with fair comeptition but that's not what we are discussing here. People who give their work away for free are being taken for fools.
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May as well chuck in my 2p worth....

Maybe its like most "art" type subjects, people who are not yet established give their services for free in order to gain recognition, once they have recognition they can start to claim a fee.

In my younger years I used to do some DJing, I'd drive all over the contry to play for free because I enjoyed it - it would be small events or small rooms at big events but the "up and coming" DJs would rarely get paid. Once you have built a bit of a name you start askig for petrol money, then a small fee. Its just the way it is - in the early days its either play for free or dont play. Having up nd coming DJs play for free never harmed the big names earning £1k for an hour long set.

I'm not saying photography is the same but maybe giving a few images for free helps the tog get some paid work later down the line?

So far as amatures asking how much they should charge to shoot a family friend; well if they have been asked to do it and shouldnt give their images away for free then they shouldnt do a shoot for free?

I guess the age old question is - at what point can you claim a fee for your work?
 
wippers said:
I am a fairly newcomer to photography and have been lucky enough to sell some images so far, but I have also given some of my images for free to a local charity. I have my name on my images even though I'm not a pro and although this is my watermark for protection I don't see why people get so upset about it?:shrug:
I can also see though why pros get upset to see their income being reduced due to the higher number of images "free to a good home" for the feel good factor from amateur togs. Competition is one thing and I encourage that, but I wouldn't be happy if someone set up in my field of business giving away the same products we manufacture. I don't think we'd be in business long.
We all have a passion for our photography and spend a lot of time, effort and money getting the images we're happy to offer to the world, so why give them away? The people benefiting are the companies using the images for promotional purposes more often than not. :shrug:
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But amateur photographers don't set up in business, if they did they would have to be charging to put bread on the table. No-one sets up a business and gives their products away for free.

I like taking images but its not something I would give up work for, its a hobby, a pastime just like Sunday league football is or knitting. Next month a photo of mine will be published on the front cover of a holiday magazine, I pushed the photo to them as I thought it would be suitable and they agreed so its being used and I am not being paid. Do I feel guilty? Do I heckers like, the opportunity was there for any photographer, amateur or pro to do the same. I know no professional photographer offered any work for the cover so what harm am I doing to the world of pro photography? I am happy and I feel good about the publication not a crime is it?
 
Well I feel I have to post on this thread as I was one of these armatures that is going to get published with out getting paid.

It was only other armature photographers taking photographs of this event, I was a approached probably because "I had a big camera" (D60)

It makes me very happy that I am getting published because it shows that my photographic skills are at a certain level. but this idea that armatures are taking the pros work is laughable. I was shooting on my 3 year old entry level camera at the max ISO and on a portrait lens wide open and still struggling to get a fast enough shutter speed with my buffer limiting the amount of shots I could take, If there was a professional photographers there and I was serous opposition they should hang there head in shame!

Another reason I was able to get the shot is that I took up the best place to take the photograph, if there had been a pro there I would respect that he had a job to do and not get in his way as a result my photos would be of a lower quality.

It also depends on where the photos are being published, I’m getting published in a freebee news paper that I’m sure will struggle to pay its editor, if an international paper said they wanted to publish my shot and not give me any money I would tell them to get on there bike. I have spent £2000 on all my gear, I want to get a small return on that, but I also need to know I am up to a certain standard before I start looking for payment. I supose its also a small stepping stone to what a pro would call a portfolio.

Stuart
 
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