Demand for cyclists number plates.

Status
Not open for further replies.
I doubt it - Heroin is a downer, the risk taking personality tends to be attracted to uppers like coke and Amphetamines (Speedballs excepted of course... they were a yuppie thing as well)

I wouldn't honestly know, I don't use drugs or come into contact with people who i work with/for who have. I used to drink too much, so stopped before I went down the alcholic route. I was never roudy though in public, just drank too much and denied the problem for too long.
 
What about all the NHS middle tier management and the bureaucratic public secto, the tax payers keep vast tracks of inefficiency, ineptitude and complacency in jobs all the time.

Oh thanks. My aunt was an NHS middle manager and kept the Liver Unit at Kings running for nearly thirty years until she retired recently.

She was very good at her job, ta.
 
ST4 king of the sweeping generalisation
 
Just to be even slightly close to on topic here. Up until the age of 25 I was a road cycle racer (and track racer) and road time triallist. I couldn't do any event on the road unless I had a BCF cycling license with which I was also insured.
 
Just to be even slightly close to on topic here. Up until the age of 25 I was a road cycle racer (and track racer) and road time triallist. I couldn't do any event on the road unless I had a BCF cycling license with which I was also insured.

You mean theres a topic ?! , i thought this was a friday night spam thread :runaway:
 
You're being a tad pedantic :)


I'm pretty sure I said they damage the road (which they unquestionably do). I never mentioned cause as it's not the point I was making.
I'm not being pedantic at all, you are just changing the goal posts. Weather on poorly laid roads is what causes the damage and not cars and as myself and someone else has pointed out, your weight applied over two narrow tyres on a road surface works out heavier than your weight in a car with wider tyres that the road can support easier. Also add to the fact that car tyres statistically move quicker over a road surface than bike tyres, you and your bikes weight is applied to one patch of road surface for longer than that of a car.
It's all simple physics.
 
Indeed. Why would councils ever have to resurface roads if they did not wear out.
Because in their attempt to save money, added to the contractor wanting to make a nice big profit from laying the tarmac, it doesn't get done properly in the first place. As I wrote earlier the road where I lived as a child still has it's original surface and the only non original bits are where it was dug up for drain repairs. All because it was done properly in the first place.
 
Because in their attempt to save money, added to the contractor wanting to make a nice big profit from laying the tarmac, it doesn't get done properly in the first place. As I wrote earlier the road where I lived as a child still has it's original surface and the only non original bits are where it was dug up for drain repairs. All because it was done properly in the first place.
well yes that probably is true, but its still wearing out isn't it ;)
 
Also add to the fact that car tyres statistically move quicker over a road surface than bike tyres, you and your bikes weight is applied to one patch of road surface for longer than that of a car

A simple thought experiment, if you were to drive on a loose gravel road at 30 mph rather than, say 5 mph, which speed do you imagine would do more damage to the surface?

Road Damaging Effects of Dynamic Axle Loads

D. Cebonl said:
The results indicate that for vehicles operating on stationary random road surfaces typical of highways, road surface damage generally increases steadily with speed.
 
I'm not being pedantic at all, you are just changing the goal posts. Weather on poorly laid roads is what causes the damage and not cars and as myself and someone else has pointed out, your weight applied over two narrow tyres on a road surface works out heavier than your weight in a car with wider tyres that the road can support easier. Also add to the fact that car tyres statistically move quicker over a road surface than bike tyres, you and your bikes weight is applied to one patch of road surface for longer than that of a car.
It's all simple physics.

I think it's fair to say you know nothing of physics, simple or otherwise.
 
Wtf has driving on loose gravel got to do with wearing out or damaging tarmac or concrete roads. Sweet FA that's what.

Or a muddy track, or grass, or stone setts.

It's everything to do with it - same physics at work, but just easier to visualise with a less durable material.

Edit: Anyhow, I previously established that the damage to roads by cars is negligible compared to heavy vehicles. Bikes even less so.
 
Last edited:
I think it's fair to say you know nothing of physics, simple or otherwise.
And there you would be wrong......... again! Keep it up and you may just hit the hat trick .
 
I think it's fair to say you know nothing of physics, simple or otherwise.

Matty I posted the link to Wikipedia contact patch and relative pressures on the road.
Ok so a little unscientific, but I knew that stilettos cause huge damage in soft wood floors because of the weight concentrated into that small contact patch, so it was interesting to find those figures.

Is that a factor in road damage? I know they'll be many other factors, usually poor repairs, rain, frost getting in. How about grip levels? But that'll be at points of acceleration and braking?

Genuinely interested.
 
Edit: Anyhow, I previously established that the damage to roads by cars is negligible compared to heavy vehicles. Bikes even less so.

Post 324, galloping horse and cyclists put most pressure on the surface... ;)
 
Last edited:
Matty I posted the link to Wikipedia contact patch and relative pressures on the road.
Ok so a little unscientific, but I knew that stilettos cause huge damage in soft wood floors because of the weight concentrated into that small contact patch, so it was interesting to find those figures.

Is that a factor in road damage? I know they'll be many other factors, usually poor repairs, rain, frost getting in. How about grip levels? But that'll be at points of acceleration and braking?

Genuinely interested.
It's the exact same principle. But as he's a cyclist, I can only assume that just as the laws of the road don't apply to him, neither do the laws of physics. :)
 
I'm not after points, just genuinely interested putting common sense into the science. I'd imagine vehicle damage would be a factor of contact point pressure (not just simply weight), time of contact, grip, repetition, then the state of the road and weather conditions.

So it might be that a racing bike puts most pressure on the road, but grip and lack of numbers, mileage etc means as a road user it's damage effect is minimal? It probably all just works out as a number game.
 
So, your hypothesis is that road wear is proportional to the ground pressure exerted and to disregard the actual weight of the vehicle?

From that we would conclude that a 60 ton M1 Abrams Tank (15 psi) would cause less damage than a 1200 Kg Toyota Hiliux (25 psi)?

Alternatively, it suggests rolling an unloaded bicycle wheel (unattached to a bicycle, weighing 900g) at 120 psi would cause the same amount of damage to a road surface as a 44 ton articulated truck with tyres at the same pressure?

You're willing to disregard what the DfT design manual states as the method?

1.3 In the UK, road pavement structural wear resulting from traffic (i.e. fatigue cracking within the bound pavement layers and/or excessive subgrade deformation) and pavement designs (for particular materials) are intrinsically related. Pavement designs for flexible and rigid pavements are presented in HD 26 (DMRB 7.2.3).

1.4 Road pavement structural wear in the UK is estimated using wear factors based on vehicle axle loads. Wear factors have been produced using actual loads measured with Weigh-in-motion (WIM) sensors installed on the highway network.

...

2.23 The structural wear to a road associated with each vehicle that passes increases significantly with increasing axle load. Although alternative methods are available, structural wear for pavement design purposes in the UK is taken as being proportional to the 4th power of the axle load, i.e:

Wear/axle ∝ L4 (L = axle load)

Thus, a 50% increase in axle load results in a five-fold increase in calculated structural wear.

These calculations, based on research done in the US in the 1950s and 60s, are used commonly in many countries for estimating road wear and are the reason that UK HGV road user levy is based on vehicle weight and axle configuration.

As it happens, there has been some more recent research on the topic of both axle loads, their relationship to the 'fourth power law' and tyre pressures by the Transport Research Laboratory in the UK.

http://road-transport-technology.org/Proceedings/3 - ISHVWD/Vehicle wheel loads and road pavement wear - Addis .pdf

The conclude that "For most purposes, the fourth power law relating structural wear in pavements and wheel load is adequate"

On the topic of tyre pressure, when investigated

"Increases in pavement wear due to changes in tyre pressure over a wide range were found to be smaller, but still substantial. A 40 psi increase in tyre pressure, in the range 60 - 140 psi, would increase pavement wear due to fatigue by a factor of 1.26."

So, pressure does make a difference, but it is near-linear; at about three orders of magnitude less than increases in wear due to increase in axle load.
 
Last edited:
Go to Rome, Athens, Milan, Barcelona and the late night town centres are fine. This city centre rowdiness is a UK problem. I'm waking to my mates tonight, from Leeds station to his place is 20mins. And it's scary what you see on .

then they are pussies. are there drunk people on the train I am on the now yes are they loud yes are they are threat to any one no.

there is nothing wrong with the majority of drunk people .
they are good natured and having a laugh. other than being loud they pose no threat to anyone.
 
I'm not after points, just genuinely interested putting common sense into the science. I'd imagine vehicle damage would be a factor of contact point pressure (not just simply weight), time of contact, grip, repetition, then the state of the road and weather conditions.

I've had a look at some of the engineering math behind it.

It's actually the same same set of equations used for calculating deformation of pavement layers in roads as for the foundations of buildings, Boussinesq and Westergaard formulas.

http://www.hyd.gov.hk/en/publicatio...hnical_document/guidance_notes/pdf/gn027a.pdf

There are two critical strain positions in a flexible pavement road structure which determine its eventual failure directly below the wheel load: horizontal strains at the bottom of the asphalt layer and vertical strains between the sub-base and subgrade.

View attachment 22455

Exactly like a beam bending the lower edge of the asphalt layer is where cracks will be created (that is where the greatest tensile stress occurs and why that is where reinforcement is placed in beams) breaking up the integrity of the layer.

A load produces a bottle shaped pressure distribution below its point of contact with the ground

http://civilwares.free.fr/Geotechnical engineering - Principles and Practices of Soils Mechanics and Foundation Engineering/Chapter 6.pdf

View attachment 22456


Rather like some of the stuff I looked at on occasion for calculating loads while studying architecture, for calculations, where the pressure across the contact point is uniform (as it would be across the contact area of a pneumatic tyre) the load is treated as a point load, so its shape and distribution is not relevant.

In other words, the fact that a cycle tyre is it a higher pressure than that of a car can be largely disregarded and it is the force applied at each wheel that is the most significant factor, and the explanation for why axle loads are the governing factor in road wear.

Edit: N.B the load isobar is spread in three dimensional space and is consequently subject to the inverse square law, so the effects of a 60 Kg woman's stiletto heel will not be significant at the critical depth of the lower boundary of the asphalt layer when compared to a 44 tonne lorry.
 
Last edited:
What's more the amount of road wear per given wheel/axle load increases at least as the cube of the load. So if for the sake of simple arithmetic we assume that a car is at least 20 times the weight of a bicycle, and we divide the car's wieght by 2 because it has twice as many wheels, then we have a car wearing out the road at least 1,000 times faster than the bicycle. So if our notional car pays 200 pounds a year vehivle tax, and we want bicycle tax to be proportional to the differing road wear rates, then bicycles should pay at most 2p a year. Sort of. Roughly. I look forward to those more knowledgeable than me correcting this notional arithmetic.
 
then they are pussies. are there drunk people on the train I am on the now yes are they loud yes are they are threat to any one no.

there is nothing wrong with the majority of drunk people .
they are good natured and having a laugh. other than being loud they pose no threat to anyone.

That's just the sort of attitude that maintains the problem. That People that find loutishness, the foul language these drunks come out are pussies. They are not, these people are antisocial yobs who make transport and cities intolerable for others.On the train over to Leeds tonight some horrible beer swigging teenagers it on, all mouthy and uttering bad language and there's a family with a young kid near by having to listen to cvnt this etc. It's not on. It's not being a pussy, it's expecting a decent standard of behaviour.

Are the Central Europeans pussies for not p***ing in their streets and uttering profanities on their trains late at night.

A train carriage should be quiet so others can read quietly, listen to music, chat on their phones etc. Not listen to football chants and profanities about jerking off.
 
didn't hear anyone swearing didn't see anyone p***ing in the street today. however having been in several European cities I see no difference in the way people act. the train was lively and at no time did I feel threatened or worried. people were polite when I had to get off. I'm not saying there isn't bad eggs but that's not the majority of people.
 
I've had a look at some of the engineering math behind it.

It's actually the same same set of equations used for calculating deformation of pavement layers in roads as for the foundations of buildings, Boussinesq and Westergaard formulas.

http://www.hyd.gov.hk/en/publicatio...hnical_document/guidance_notes/pdf/gn027a.pdf

There are two critical strain positions in a flexible pavement road structure which determine its eventual failure directly below the wheel load: horizontal strains at the bottom of the asphalt layer and vertical strains between the sub-base and subgrade.

View attachment 22455

Exactly like a beam bending the lower edge of the asphalt layer is where cracks will be created (that is where the greatest tensile stress occurs and why that is where reinforcement is placed in beams) breaking up the integrity of the layer.

A load produces a bottle shaped pressure distribution below its point of contact with the ground

http://civilwares.free.fr/Geotechnical engineering - Principles and Practices of Soils Mechanics and Foundation Engineering/Chapter 6.pdf

View attachment 22456


Rather like some of the stuff I looked at on occasion for calculating loads while studying architecture, for calculations, where the pressure across the contact point is uniform (as it would be across the contact area of a pneumatic tyre) the load is treated as a point load, so its shape and distribution is not relevant.

In other words, the fact that a cycle tyre is it a higher pressure than that of a car can be largely disregarded and it is the force applied at each wheel that is the most significant factor, and the explanation for why axle loads are the governing factor in road wear.

Edit: N.B the load isobar is spread in three dimensional space and is consequently subject to the inverse square law, so the effects of a 60 Kg woman's stiletto heel will not be significant at the critical depth of the lower boundary of the asphalt layer when compared to a 44 tonne lorry.

What's more the amount of road wear per given wheel/axle load increases at least as the cube of the load. So if for the sake of simple arithmetic we assume that a car is at least 20 times the weight of a bicycle, and we divide the car's wieght by 2 because it has twice as many wheels, then we have a car wearing out the road at least 1,000 times faster than the bicycle. So if our notional car pays 200 pounds a year vehivle tax, and we want bicycle tax to be proportional to the differing road wear rates, then bicycles should pay at most 2p a year. Sort of. Roughly. I look forward to those more knowledgeable than me correcting this notional arithmetic.

Post like these after midnight...wow...That is actually more worrying than drunks on a train...

Anyway I admire the desire to make a point, however this is just so simple...No need for silly registration on cyclists, pedestrians at all....Motorists can easily carry the burden of the costs, and the responsibility to look out for weaker participants in traffic. Simple and no big government machine required to administrate it :)
 
But she has just as much right to use the road as everyone else, as you cyclists like to keep reminding as motorists. Perhaps, just like most motorists do, you could have been more observant and realised before hand that she might just step out in front of you. ;)
So as a motorist you are perfectly happy for people to step out and cross the road in front of you without looking or giving you adequate time to take evasive action?

Fortunately for that lady I was able to come to a stop in time so that all she took was a little knock back and a dent to her pride.

The very same day on my return journey a very similar incident occurred with young lady crossing the road without looking, not at a crossing. If someone simply steps out two or three meters ahead of you, now amount of being observant is going to help.
Fortunately for that young lady I was far enough back to not hit her. Unfortunately for her the motorcycle in front of me had no chance to stop and I ended up tending to her until the ambulance arrived. But hey, she was just enjoying her right. :rolleyes:
 
  • Like
Reactions: ST4
So as a motorist you are perfectly happy for people to step out and cross the road in front of you without looking or giving you adequate time to take evasive action?

Fortunately for that lady I was able to come to a stop in time so that all she took was a little knock back and a dent to her pride.

The very same day on my return journey a very similar incident occurred with young lady crossing the road without looking, not at a crossing. If someone simply steps out two or three meters ahead of you, now amount of being observant is going to help.
Fortunately for that young lady I was far enough back to not hit her. Unfortunately for her the motorcycle in front of me had no chance to stop and I ended up tending to her until the ambulance arrived. But hey, she was just enjoying her right. :rolleyes:

Everyone who uses the road is expected to have a basic understanding of the HWC. The HWC even has a section dedicated to pedestrians.

Stepping out infront of anyone, on any type of vehicle is not exercising a right, it's stupid and goes against all recommendations.
 
Everyone who uses the road is expected to have a basic understanding of the HWC. The HWC even has a section dedicated to pedestrians.

Stepping out infront of anyone, on any type of vehicle is not exercising a right, it's stupid and goes against all recommendations.
Try explaining that to someone with an irrational dislike for cyclists.
 
Yes it amazes me that some people are happy to show how prejudiced they are.

There are inconsiderate motorists as well as inconsiderate cyclists and pedestrians. It doesn't make sense to force the inconsiderate cyclists into driving motor cars instead. They'll just be more dangerous.
 
Last edited:
Then camera's need to be on cyclists, buses etc to ensure car drivers aren't getting treated unfairly by other road users. Its very easy to villify car drivers, but what of the aggressive driving you see by buses, red light running cyclists who claim they are badly treated
Bicycles already carry cameras in many cases, in order to have evidence against other road users. There are for sure assholes on wheels as well as behind wheels - the difference is when a car user behaves like an idiot, chances are the cyclist dies. When a cyclist does the car user gets his nice paintwork scraped - it's hardly the same thing.

What is disappointing is intolerance - either party thinking they have the sole right to use the highways, and "get out of my way". I cycle a lot and know the statutes, yet it still disappoints me to see cyclists insisting on using A-roads for their sunday spin, and riding two abreast. Yes they're allowed to do it, but why? It just messes things up for others - take a quiet road. Same with motorists shoving their way by and getting hacked off with cyclists - it's not their road.

Way too much "me, me, me" and intolerance - that's far more the problem than "cycling".
 
Bicycles already carry cameras in many cases, in order to have evidence against other road users. There are for sure assholes on wheels as well as behind wheels - the difference is when a car user behaves like an idiot, chances are the cyclist dies. When a cyclist does the car user gets his nice paintwork scraped - it's hardly the same thing.

".

or when the cyclist does, the cyclist dies and the car driver gets blamed for it
 
  • Like
Reactions: ST4
Anyway I admire the desire to make a point, however this is just so simple...No need for silly registration on cyclists, pedestrians at all....Motorists can easily carry the burden of the costs, and the responsibility to look out for weaker participants in traffic. Simple and no big government machine required to administrate it :)

Quite.

TBH, it isn't going to happen (even if it is UKIP policy to introduce registration plates and compulsory insurance for bicycles).

There is no appetite for it in the DfT. The DVLA aren't going to welcome the costs of having to set up a parallel system to register the estimated 25 million bicycles in the UK. As for VED, when, under the current rules, like approximately 2 million other vehicles on the road today, they would pay no VED. Since it costs the VLA about £1 to process each VED application, those paying VED would end up subsidising cyclists to the tune of about £25 million, which I am sure they would welcome.

There are a number of countries that have had such schemes in the past. Switzerland had a small plate that you you would buy annually to show that you had paid into their compulsory third party insurance scheme. The problem was, much like the old dog licence in the UK, it cost more to administer than the revenue it generated and for those reasons it was abolished in 2012. Belgium had a bike registration scheme that was abandoned in the 1970s; a number of local laws required registration in cities in the US, but largely they remain unenforced or have been abolished. Abolition or lack of enforcement has been the general pattern across the globe.

The reasons for the introduction of compulsory insurance under the Road Traffic Act 1930 must also be examined.

In 1926, when there were about 1.5 million motor vehicles on British roads and official statistics were first collected, there were 4,886 deaths on UK roads. By 1930, that had risen to 7,305. Death and injury caused by motor vehicles was a serious and growing problem. Due to the nature of accidents they can cause, the damage caused by motor vehicles can rapidly exceed the ability of those responsible to pay for, leaving them bankrupt if they were to be sued for damages.

Bicycles do not cause damage and fatalities to third parties on anything like a similar scale and such damage as they may cause is more commonly within the ability of the rider of a bicycle to pay should a civil claim be brought against them. To equate several thousand deaths a year with scratching the paintwork of a car would be fatuous.

Finally, one must examine the motivations of those calling for compulsory registration, VED and insurance for bicycles.

On this thread at least, those most vocal in calling for such measures have expressed their view that bicycles should not be on the roads in the first place, sometimes to the point of advocating violent or physically aggressive behaviour toward cyclists.

It is not unreasonable therefore to draw the conclusion that their demands are not motivated by a genuine and rational desire for cyclists to accept their responsibilities, but to erect artificial barriers to cycling and consequently reduce the numbers of bicycles on Britain's roads. If you are required to get insurance, a registration plate and pay for VED before venturing out on a bicycle, then you are far less likely to do it. This would obviously be a perfect result for many of those supporting the idea.
 
Last edited:
Anyway I admire the desire to make a point, however this is just so simple...No need for silly registration on cyclists, pedestrians at all....Motorists can easily carry the burden of the costs, and the responsibility to look out for weaker participants in traffic. Simple and no big government machine required to administrate it :)

So when a cyclist colides with a pedestrian, injures them badly and then cycles away before the police arrive , thats okay because somehow motorists bear the burden of the costs ? (actually in that situation costs which would otherwise be reclaimed from the cyclist or their insurer are instead borne by the tax payer )

Come to that if a cyclist or a pedestrrian cycles/steps right in front of a moving car and causes an accident , thats still the car drivers fault ?

End of the day its simple - everyone has the right to use the highway, but anyone who does has the same responsibility to act responsibly, look out for other users , and to take responsibility for thir own actions
 
or when the cyclist does, the cyclist dies and the car driver gets blamed for it


The law is notoriously lax whenever a motorist kills someone - this bizarre assumption that somehow a judge and jury will side with anyone who is proved to be reckless and punish the innocent party has no bases in fact at all.

I'm yet to read of any newspaper article saying "innocent motorist found guilty for killing reckless pedestrian (or cyclist)"




Come to that if a cyclist or a pedestrrian cycles/steps right in front of a moving car and causes an accident , thats still the car drivers fault ?

It would depend - many motorists (not just cyclists) need to stop without warning in traffic all the time - this is the primary reason the vehicle behind is asked to give space and allow for such things (2 second rule/4 second rule etc). Simply because no one does this not excuse it when it goes wrong and someone dies.

But, if you're talking about someone trowing themselves under traffic - no the motorist would not be found guilty....Unless the motorist was breaking the law at the time......

There was a recent case of a motorist who killed a cyclist. By the motorists own account (because well...the cyclist wasn't in a position to offer his side of the story) the cyclist hopped from the curb to the road without looking and was killed. Unfortunately for the motorist he was showing off to his girlfriend at the time and doing 60mph in a 30mph zone.

The judge correctly found him guilty.
 
Last edited:
Come to that if a cyclist or a pedestrrian cycles/steps right in front of a moving car and causes an accident , thats still the car drivers fault ?

It is not an either/or question. The courts and insurers are well accustomed to apportioning fault in such circumstances; with consequences for any damages awarded.
 
So when a cyclist colides with a pedestrian, injures them badly and then cycles away before the police arrive , thats okay because somehow motorists bear the burden of the costs ? (actually in that situation costs which would otherwise be reclaimed from the cyclist or their insurer are instead borne by the tax payer )

Come to that if a cyclist or a pedestrrian cycles/steps right in front of a moving car and causes an accident , thats still the car drivers fault ?

End of the day its simple - everyone has the right to use the highway, but anyone who does has the same responsibility to act responsibly, look out for other users , and to take responsibility for thir own actions
No that is not what I meant. My point regarding the cost is towards car tax and fuel duties. Which actually aren't ring fenced for infrastructure anyway. So cyclists that aren't also motorist already contribute just like everyone else through their normal taxes.

In the purist form, yes if a pedestrian walks in front of a motor vehicle then by default the stronger participant in traffic is at fault. It is our responsibility as motorists to watch out and adapt our driving style to cater for such events. It is not s unique concept considering that speed limits get changed depending on where you are and how build up the area is. And naturally those are maximum speed limits. One alway had to remain vigilant and be able to account for stupid behaviour. Heck it doesn't have to be just walking in the road. For example if a pedestrian is on the pavement they could trip and get into your path. It is our duty as motorists to control such situations.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top