Demand for cyclists number plates.

[nilagin]

Like I said. I wouldn't stop leisure driving. Just increase insurance for it.

There's no requirement to drive at the speed limit. You drive to conditions. Which includes those you share the road with. The idea that you're being "held up" by cyclists comes from the arrogance that pre-exists in many drivers and leads them to think the roads are just for motor vehicles. Other than motorways, they're not.

Ever noticed when filling out insurance quote requests they ask what use you will be making of the car and how many miles a year you'd expect to be driving. Insurance premiums already take into account that. Whilst you claim there is no need to drive at the speed limit, there is also no need to drive at 10mph below the speed limit, that just causes unnecessary congestion and I'm glad I don't live anywhere where you feel motorists spend their time accelerating up to 30mph and having to brake again lowering their average speed down to near 20. The only time a 20mph speed limit is necessary is near schools as kids arrive in the morning and when they leave in the afternoon. Driving at 20mph will only lead to increased emissions anyway.

 

[big soft moose]

same applies. where would you attach it? seatpost? nope, same issue with clipping the legs. rear triangle? its still going to become a hazard with clipping things. the handlebars are often way above any obstacles, heres an example of the kind of riding myself and a lot of others do. a numberplate on the triangle would be dragging in the bushes here (and some trails are even narrower)..

I'd make it narrower than a motor bike plate - theres no saying it has to be the same size , and attach it at the rear - it could also be made detachable so that you could take it off for off road adventures and just put it back on when on tarmac (like some trail riders do on m/bikes)

 

[nilagin]

same applies. where would you attach it? seatpost? nope, same issue with clipping the legs. rear triangle? its still going to become a hazard with clipping things. the handlebars are often way above any obstacles, heres an example of the kind of riding myself and a lot of others do. a numberplate on the triangle would be dragging in the bushes here (and some trails are even narrower)..

Now I know you are taking the p***. That's off road, just like people that ride motorbikes off road, they don't need number plates.

 

[SFTPhotography]

Except that the poor are paying Vat on things they have to have like food , and clothing ... its only a choice for the rich who have money to blow on luxuries.

Don't the rich need to eat? Or is it only the poor that pay VAT on food? Do you see lots of naked rich people?

No offence but you are suffering from ivory tower syndrome , like a lot of wealthy people you have no idea what its like to be poor - maybe you should try living on £72.40 for everything except housing for a week and see how easy it is (and that doesnt include the fact that many poor people are in private rental housing where the rent exceeds the housing benefit)

I was not always well off and I am not as well off as you think...you get back, what you put in out of life. People are people, rich folk are just poor folk with money

 

[Mattyd]

unnecessary congestion .

Do you consider waiting at the lights, behind lines of single occupancy cars "unnecessary congestion" or is that necessary congestion?

 

[neil_g]

Now I know you are taking the p***. That's off road, just like people that ride motorbikes off road, they don't need number plates.

1) wind you neck in.
2) so wheres the line? what if i have to ride a couple of miles on road to join trails?

there are tooooooo many variables for it to work reliably and as the guardian article says waaaaaaay back in this thread no official body/authorities support it anyway.

 

[Cobra]

Not that I particularly agree with number plates for bikes, but I can see the pro's point of view.
You could always have a mudguard or two with the numbers embossed in some "bright colour"
or a sticky number (s) on part of the frame.
(Maybe not that one)
They may not be readily readable by a speed camera ( )
but an aggrieved pedestrian or driver should get the number.

 

[Mattyd]

BTW ST4 AND Big Soft

small point - there is no VAT on (shop supplied) food or on kids clothing.

 

[neil_g]

Not that I particularly agree with number plates for bikes, but I can see the pro's point of view.
You could always have a mudguard or two with the numbers embossed in some "bright colour"
or a sticky number (s) on part of the frame.
(Maybe not that one)
They may not be readily readable by a speed camera D)
but an aggrieved pedestrian or driver should get the number.

not everyone runs mudguards

also, as per the guardian article again way back. the borris bikes have numbers on but nobody quoted them in the event of an issue being reported.

 

[Mattyd]

but an aggrieved pedestrian or driver should get the number.

And do what with it?

Unless someones hurt, the police wont act.

 

[SFTPhotography]

1) wind you neck in.
2) so wheres the line? what if i have to ride a couple of miles on road to join trails?

there are tooooooo many variables for it to work reliably and as the guardian article says waaaaaaay back in this thread no official body/authorities support it anyway.

Certain members of the public support it. I would say a small rear number plate is fine. I wouldn't think a front one is neccessary. Or even the cyclist to have to wear a hi vis with the mark clearly ledible all the hi vis. Just some form of identification really. After all, car drivers have their cars blighter with a plate, why shouldn't a bike or cyclist have the same issues.

 

[SFTPhotography]

BTW ST4 AND Big Soft

small point - there is no VAT on (shop supplied) food or on kids clothing.

There is on cigarettes, alchohol, adult clothing, footwear (adult, not sure about childs as I do not have them), pet food etc. The point is, this tax is paid by the rich, as well as NINO for a derisory state pension, as well as 40% income tax, higher council tax bands for the same derisory services if you have a nice house. The more tax you pay - the less you get back. Its no wonder why people try and minimise their tax liabilities.

 

[Mattyd]

Certain members of the public support it. I would say a small rear number plate is fine.

Then it would be too small to be of any use.

Or even the cyclist to have to wear a hi vis with the mark clearly ledible all the hi vis.

Wont happen - not just cyclists would kick off about this but other well meaning people who simply do not like the idea of numbering people.

We would also be the only nation on the planet to do such a thing.

 

[neil_g]

Certain members of the public support it. I would say a small rear number plate is fine. I wouldn't think a front one is neccessary. Or even the cyclist to have to wear a hi vis with the mark clearly ledible all the hi vis. Just some form of identification really. After all, car drivers have their cars blighter with a plate, why shouldn't a bike or cyclist have the same issues.

again as per the guardian article (did anyone read it?) what if you wear a bag (i have a camelbak for riding)?

 

[SFTPhotography]

again as per the guardian article (did anyone read it?) what if you wear a bag (i have a camelbak for riding)?

Plate needs to go on the back of the bike, or over the top of the bag...

Just like if your car gets dirty, you need to clean the plate so its visible, or if you tow a trailer, you have to fit a plate to the trailer that corrosponds to the car. Car drivers manage with these rules. So can cyclists.

 

[SFTPhotography]

Then it would be too small to be of any use.





Wont happen - not just cyclists would kick off about this but other well meaning people who simply do not like the idea of numbering people.

We would also be the only nation on the planet to do such a thing.

No one makes anyone cycle, just like no one is made to drive. My view is if you want to use our roads for cycling, driving, you need to be licenced, insured and display a registration mark that identifies you. In my view, it is fair and right that cyclists do this. It doesn't mean because we are the only country to do this, that it is wrong

 

[neil_g]

Plate needs to go on the back of the bike, or over the top of the bag...

Just like if your car gets dirty, you need to clean the plate so its visible, or if you tow a trailer, you have to fit a plate to the trailer that corrosponds to the car. Car drivers manage with these rules. So can cyclists.

Except a car or trailer has universal fixings and space for a plate.

What's to stop me using my mates plate anyway? Or have 1 plate for all of my bikes? Or cloning someone else for that matter.

 

[nilagin]

Do you consider waiting at the lights, behind lines of single occupancy cars "unnecessary congestion" or is that necessary congestion?

I very seldom have to wait at traffic lights as I take side turnings to avoid them during the times that there is a lot of traffic. During times of light traffic, the traffic lights sense when a car is approaching whilst there is nothing waiting or approaching from the other directions, my lights will turn green, meaning I don't have to stop. At worst, I have to stop for approx. 1 minute, with maybe a couple of cars in front. Added to that, I observe the traffic light cycle as I approach anyway and adjust my speed so sometimes I don't even have to stop for the full minute and I'm back up to 30mph and on my way.

 

[Mattyd]

I very seldom have to wait at traffic lights as I take side turnings to avoid them during the times that there is a lot of traffic. During times of light traffic, the traffic lights sense when a car is approaching whilst there is nothing waiting or approaching from the other directions, my lights will turn green, meaning I don't have to stop. At worst, I have to stop for approx. 1 minute, with maybe a couple of cars in front. Added to that, I observe the traffic light cycle as I approach anyway and adjust my speed so sometimes I don't even have to stop for the full minute and I'm back up to 30mph and on my way.

Then you sir are a totally anomaly and a very lucky one at that.

I don't know anyone who does not get stuck behind traffic lights at least one or twice a day. I regularly get stuck at lights maybe 5 times just driving into work.

 

[neil_g]

Then you sir are a totally anomaly and a very lucky one at that.

I don't know anyone who does not get stuck behind traffic lights at least one or twice a day. I regularly get stuck at lights maybe 5 times just driving into work.

75% of my drive to and from work is nose to tail

 

[Cobra]

not everyone runs mudguards
.

Taking my "theory" further, you could make it legal that they did,
( I though that they were a legal requirement TBH obviously not then.)
And buy them yearly rather like a road tax
and or 3rd party
Insurance.
No need to thank me I'm just doing the politicians job for them

And do what with it?

Unless someones hurt, the police wont act.

Dunno really, I've not thought it through.
I was respond to the comments that it would be impossible to fit number plates to a bike.

 

[Musicman]

Indirect taxation is a choice based thing like alcohol, tobacco and to an extent road fuel. Income tax adds up when you earn a bit than indirect tax.

but less than indirect taxes if you're in a lower income group, as demonstrated by ONS figures. Unless you're claiming they are wrong.

Don't the rich need to eat? Or is it only the poor that pay VAT on food? Do you see lots of naked rich people?

Just as there is VAT on fuel (primarily I'm talking gas and electricity here).

The point is that the poor spend more on these things as a proportion of their income and they pay proportionally more in indirect taxes, and proportionally more taxes overall as a result, even when taking Income Tax into account. Whatever you may think about it, those are the facts.

 

[nilagin]

1) wind you neck in.
2) so wheres the line? what if i have to ride a couple of miles on road to join trails?

there are tooooooo many variables for it to work reliably and as the guardian article says waaaaaaay back in this thread no official body/authorities support it anyway.

1) My neck is perfectly ok where it is.
2) as already pointed out the plate could be detachable for when you wish to ride off road and a small motorbike plate wouldn't even be as big as your backside so would hardly likely to get in the way anyway. There aren't too many variables for it to work, it's just a case of you not wanting it because for some warped reason you think it will take away some civil liberty or something, which it won't.

Except a car or trailer has universal fixings and space for a plate.
What's to stop me using my mates plate anyway? Or have 1 plate for all of my bikes? Or cloning someone else for that matter.

How hard is it to make a suitable bracket to secure a registration plate? Answer is, not hard at all. What do you hope to achieve by cloning, borrowing or duplicating plates, do you have something to hide or feel the need to avoid?
Criminals do the above with motorised vehicles anyway so I don't really see what point you are trying to prove.

 

[SFTPhotography]

The point is that the poor spend more on these things as a proportion of their income and they pay proportionally more in indirect taxes, and proportionally more taxes overall as a result, even when taking Income Tax into account. Whatever you may think about it, those are the facts.

Maybe so, but its morally bankrupt, in my view, to tax someone 40% of their income. And of this indirect taxation, how much of it is on alochol and tobacco, both items that are a) optional b) bad for you c) very highly taxed due to additional duty

 

[big soft moose]

BTW ST4 AND Big Soft

small point - there is no VAT on (shop supplied) food or on kids clothing.

HMRC say

Food and drink for human consumption is usually zero-rated but some items are standard-rated, including alcoholic drinks, confectionery, crisps and savoury snacks, hot food, sports drinks, hot takeaways, ice cream, soft drinks and mineral water

and ST4 yes of course the rich need to eat too but a) they have more choice about where they get their food from , b) being better educated they tend to avoid a lot of the crap convenience junk (which is VAT rated), and c) their food consumption makes up a smaller percentage of their income , because their income is larger.

 

[big soft moose]

Maybe so, but its morally bankrupt, in my view, to tax someone 40% of their income. And of this indirect taxation, how much of it is on alochol and tobacco, both items that are a) optional b) bad for you c) very highly taxed due to additional duty

With respect steve you're entitled to your view, just as i think its morrally bankrupt to pay a banker so much more than a teacher/nurse/policeman - but these are value judgements not objective facts

and alcohol and tobbcco not much - as i said try living on a benefit ammount for a week or two and see how much booze and fags you can afford (the shiftless junkie, drinking and smoking their child benefit whilst sleeping arround and hacing a kid every year by different fathers, is a daily Heil construct , with very little grounding in reality.... sure they do exist , but they arent in the majority , or typical of the unemployed )

 

[neil_g]

1) My neck is perfectly ok where it is.
2) as already pointed out the plate could be detachable for when you wish to ride off road and a small motorbike plate wouldn't even be as big as your backside so would hardly likely to get in the way anyway. There aren't too many variables for it to work, it's just a case of you not wanting it because for some warped reason you think it will take away some civil liberty or something, which it won't.

Not at all, I'm pro ID cards if that helps with your opinion of my civil Liberty line.

So you wouldn't want a registration plate to be ledgible at the same distance as cars?

Where would i store this plate when detached? Wouldn't be any space in my backpack.

How hard is it to make a suitable bracket to secure a registration plate? Answer is, not hard at all. What do you hope to achieve by cloning, borrowing or duplicating plates, do you have something to hide or feel the need to avoid?
Criminals do the above with motorised vehicles anyway so I don't really see what point you are trying to prove.

Bracket wise, reasonably hard as most frames are difference tube cross section. Full suspension have different linkages yadda yadda.

My point regarding cloning is that is would be all too easy to do if you were so inclined as the plate couldn't be tied back to a particular bike.

Roadies wouldn't like it much either. Not very stream line

 

[big soft moose]

cloning is a piece of p*** for cars too - but it doesnt mean we don't have number plates

 

[H2O]

Maybe so, but its morally bankrupt, in my view, to tax someone 40% of their income

What is a moral % and how would you calculate it?

 

[nilagin]

I'll put a number plate on my bike when pedestrians start hanging them around their neck. I would love to be able to identify the dopey tart that stepped out into the road in front on me this morning without so much as a glance in my direction. Then I could report her for walking without due care and attention.

Surely there isn't a point where this starts to get a bit silly is there?

But she has just as much right to use the road as everyone else, as you cyclists like to keep reminding as motorists. Perhaps, just like most motorists do, you could have been more observant and realised before hand that she might just step out in front of you.

 

[Musicman]

I read that as the meaning of bass_junkie's last paragraph

 

[neil_g]

cloning is a piece of p*** for cars too - but it doesnt mean we don't have number plates

True. But at least the police can cross reference the VIN to sus them out.

 

[big soft moose]

What is a moral % and how would you calculate it?

from higher up steve wants to charge everyone 20% - theres nothing about how he'd make up the shortfall (probably by cutting benefits and forcing normal people to take up crime to survive - thus costing society more in hidden costs)

As i said higher up on one of the posts STeve ignored , UKIP actually want to charge the rich more (with a super super tax bracket of 50% ) in order to relieve the burden on the working poor... pretty much every party has a polocy more or less like that so I think he's out of luck

I also think the chances of any party introducing a higher speedlimit for those who can afford to pay are fairly remote - ironically the only country thats ever done anything like that was communist russia, which had an unlimitted centre lane restricted to the use of the Vlasti

I heard on the news earlier that we could have another economic downturn coming ... while I woulnt actually wish it on anyone , i cant help feeling it would be ironic if a bunch of banks imploded wiping out their employees savings and pensions and leaving some fat cat bankers to survive as "dole scum"

 

[Mattyd]

it is fair and right that cyclists do this.

Look at it another way..... As soon as cars start costing an average of £350, cause about 100 deaths a year total, does not pollute, does not damage the road etc Im sure they wont need licensing, insurance and tax either.

Dunno really, I've not thought it through.
I was respond to the comments that it would be impossible to fit number plates to a bike.

And this is the issue most people don't get...

Number plates on cars stop people speeding.....and that's pretty much it. It only stops them because we have a rather crappy camera system set up that will catch them in the act (some of the time).

Past that, they don't stop phone use, the don't stop tailgaing, they don't stop people driving with no seat belt, or driving an unfit car, they don't stop arseholes, they dont stop red light jumping....The only thing that stops those things is police either in cars or on the streets who catch them in the act.

And its never been an issue for police to catch cyclists in the act of doing something stupid as recently proved by the London campaign where 4k cyclists and 10K motorists where fined. Had those cyclists had number plates the outcome would have been no different.

 

[big soft moose]

Look at it another way..... As soon as cars start costing an average of £350, cause about 100 deaths a year total, does not pollute, does not damage the road etc Im sure they wont need licensing, insurance and tax either.

.

My first car cost 3oo quid , never caused a death, didnt polute much (it was a mini) - does that mean I didnt need licence, insurance , or tax ?

 

[Cobra]

And this is the issue most people don't get...

Number plates on cars stop people speeding.....and that's pretty much it. It only stops them because we have a rather crappy camera system set up that will catch them in the act (some of the time).

Past that, they don't stop phone use, the don't stop tailgaing, they don't stop people driving with no seat belt, or driving an unfit car, they don't stop arseholes, they dont stop red light jumping....The only thing that stops those things is police either in cars or on the streets who catch them in the act.

And its never been an issue for police to catch cyclists in the act of doing something stupid as recently proved by the London campaign where 4k cyclists and 10K motorists where fined. Had those cyclists had number plates the outcome would have been no different.

I've never really thought about it as TBH cyclists per se aren't really any kind of issue around here.
But I see where you are coming from
And agree about the "crappy camera's" of course

 

[H2O]

from higher up steve wants to charge everyone 20% - theres nothing about how he'd make up the shortfall (probably by cutting benefits and forcing normal people to take up crime to survive - thus costing society more in hidden costs)

Indeed. But i'm assuming he mentioned that rate because it's the current lowest rate and not because it's the right moral level.

I mainly asked because I really don't see the moral problem with the current system. 'The rich' pay tax at 20% on the same money as the poor. It's only the additional money that's taxed at a higher rate.

As for the rates themselves... surely the moral argument for where they're set should be based on the needed services & the impact of the tax on the person being taxed? If so I would think the current multi level system is more moral than a one size fits all approach.

 

[nilagin]

Then you sir are a totally anomaly and a very lucky one at that.

I don't know anyone who does not get stuck behind traffic lights at least one or twice a day. I regularly get stuck at lights maybe 5 times just driving into work.

On my 8 mile commute to work, there isn't one set of traffic lights and I only have to give way at junctions along the way but in reality, I end up only having to give way twice as the roads are quiet when I go to work.

 

[Mattyd]

My first car cost 3oo quid , never caused a death, didnt polute much (it was a mini) - does that mean I didnt need licence, insurance , or tax ?

Cars collectively and or statistically - which is what we base policy on. Not on individual cases

Nice reply though, made me smile

 

[viv1969]

To be fair the "poor" (and I believe Steve is referring to and condemning those who exist in benefits out of choice), have the same choices as everyone else over where to buy their food, and what type of food they eat.

When funds are limited, then it's time to prioritise the spending.

Those who just about exist on benefits are not often the same ones with 50in plasma tvs, the latest gizmos/consoles/phones and a full Sky package.

Just my opinion.