Dave Lee Travis arrested

[big soft moose]

No, it's not borderline. The law requires informed consent, and if the girl's too drunk to understand what she's doing, she's not competent to consent. The same applies to drugs, mental impairment and a couple of other things.

I agree - when I said borderline at best , I meant that in 99% of cases its ****ing illegal.. there would I suppose be a slight grey area if she consented before getting drunk but its not something I would do anyway

 

[big soft moose]

But the young impressionable girls don't always need plying with drink or drugs. .

no but the men should have more sense and a stronger moral compass - there's also a difference between having a relationship with a 16 year old and taking advantage of someone being impressed with your 'status' for a quick shag.

 

[nilagin]

But if the men themselves are stoned or drunk, they are not likely to be thinking straight anyway and morals then don't get considered.

 

[andyscott]

But if the men themselves are stoned or drunk, they are not likely to be thinking straight anyway and morals then don't get considered.

That's when the law is rubbish and sometimes for the youngsters you almost think they should have consent forms

 

[cambsno]

Legally yes , morally no - grown men shouldn't be preying on girls who are legal but only just either

To your morals maybe, but we are different. If its legal then why cant an 80yo sleep with a 16yo?

We all have different morals... some find it wrong to have sex before marriage, others may find being gay wrong, others may find certain practices wrong... The law is quite clear on doing more that 70mph on a motorway and clear on sex too.

I have to admit that I am sure in my youth I did not display the morals some on here show... in fact i remember a time I had a girl back to mine... made sure she had doubles and I had singles... still happily married with 2 kids 13 years later... we both joke about me 'taking advantage of her' when she did actually want that!!!

I can also remember working part time at 16, and getting cleaning stuff squirted all over me and thrown in a pond by other colleagues... I guess these days it would be assault!!!

 

[Bernie174]

No one is on trial for their morals, morality isn't a criminal matter. The subject came up only because the press have made such a fuss of the age of one of DLT's victims.
It's important to keep matters in context, which if the press get their way it wont be. The usual screams of pedophile will follow.

 

[big soft moose]

But if the men themselves are stoned or drunk, they are not likely to be thinking straight anyway and morals then don't get considered.

then it is their own fault

try robbing a bank and then saying , "oh no your honour I was on drugs at the time and didn't think about the consequences of my actions"

 

[big soft moose]

If its legal then why cant an 80yo sleep with a 16yo?

if you really have to ask then there no point in trying to explain - would you be happy if the girl in question was your 16 year old daughter ?

 

[andya700]

if you really have to ask then there no point in trying to explain - would you be happy if the girl in question was your 16 year old daughter ?

So what do you think about a sexual relationship between a 14 year old girl and a 48 year old rock star. where the mother of the girl was possibly actively encouraging the proceedings?
I know what I think about it, and I am amazed that nothing has been done about it.
It just goes to show the double standards which exist in society - one rule (and set of morals) for the rich and famous, and a quite different approach to ordinary people.

 

[big soft moose]

So what do you think about a sexual relationship between a 14 year old girl and a 48 year old rock star. where the mother of the girl was possibly actively encouraging the proceedings?
I know what I think about it, and I am amazed that nothing has been done about it.
.

I'd think that he ought to be prosecuted for statutory rape , and the mother for contributing to the delinquency of a minor (or whatever the exact wording is)

 

[Russ77]

When I was in my late teens/early 20s, there were several occasions where I ended up in a situation with a girl that turned out to be 14/15 and they were actively pursuing more than just being friends with me.

Usual thing where there'd be a group of us, we would all be about the same age so I had assumed that the girls in question were too. I know this sounds like a likely story but they would usually engineer a situation where we would end up on our own.

Luckily for me I've always been an over cautious person (in fact I didn't sleep with anyone until I was nearly 22 ) and I would always double check on their age if they were under 16 would tactfully make an exit.

I'm not professing to be God's gift (far from it) but I guess what YV said about girls wanting to date older guys was coming into play.

Now let's say that I wasn't so cautious, asked "are you 16", she replies "yes" and jumped on the good foot to do the bad thing. At the age of 19/20 I could have been charged with rape. Yes, I know that's the law but I wasn't the one making the running.

I've said many times, even though the law is black/white, the subject of "rape" is very emotive and there are so many different shades of grey.

 

[MartynK]

To your morals maybe, but we are different. If its legal then why cant an 80yo sleep with a 16yo?

We all have different morals... some find it wrong to have sex before marriage, others may find being gay wrong, others may find certain practices wrong... The law is quite clear on doing more that 70mph on a motorway and clear on sex too.

I have to admit that I am sure in my youth I did not display the morals some on here show... in fact i remember a time I had a girl back to mine... made sure she had doubles and I had singles... still happily married with 2 kids 13 years later... we both joke about me 'taking advantage of her' when she did actually want that!!!

I can also remember working part time at 16, and getting cleaning stuff squirted all over me and thrown in a pond by other colleagues... I guess these days it would be assault!!![/QUOTE]

 

[DrGed]

I don't care if she's 15 or 50, wearing a boiler suit or stark naked; sober or off her head on drink or drugs. No-one has the right to lay a finger on her.

True

 

[MartynK]

To your morals maybe, but we are different. If its legal then why cant an 80yo sleep with a 16yo?

He can, legally, but it violates our social mores.

I have to admit that I am sure in my youth I did not display the morals some on here show... in fact i remember a time I had a girl back to mine... made sure she had doubles and I had singles... still happily married with 2 kids 13 years later... we both joke about me 'taking advantage of her' when she did actually want that!!!

I think a lot of guys - and girls - have similar memories! It was, and probably still is, pretty common behaviour and it really doesn't have any legal implications providing the girl was compos mentis enough to know and understand what was happening, and consented to it. Getting her blind drunk and having sex with her when she doesn't know what is going on is rape. There are a few grey areas here, and it would be up to a court to decide, if it went that far. I suspect that there have always been cases like this that aren't pursued for various reasons.

 

[Russ77]

He can, legally, but it violates our social mores.

I can remember a discussion on another forum that started off about parking

The poster told a tale about parking on the continent where people leave their handbrakes off and others who park "nudge" their way into the remaining spaces.

Some people were outraged by this behaviour and potentially causing damage to other people's cars.

Then someone really went and did it when they mentioned that the age of consent is 14 in some countries so it would be perfectly legal to sleep with a 14 year old while in that country.......... Boy did that conversation go downhill rapidly!

 

[MartynK]

I can remember a discussion on another forum that started off about parking

The poster told a tale about parking on the continent where people leave their handbrakes off and others who park "nudge" their way into the remaining spaces.

Some people were outraged by this behaviour and potentially causing damage to other people's cars.

Then someone really went and did it when they mentioned that the age of consent is 14 in some countries so it would be perfectly legal to sleep with a 14 year old while in that country.......... Boy did that conversation go downhill rapidly!

Yip. The law and social mores can be very different, depending when and where you're talking about. Threads go off track all the time, which can be pretty interesting, and the whole "age of consent" issue crops up every now and again!

 

[cambsno]

if you really have to ask then there no point in trying to explain - would you be happy if the girl in question was your 16 year old daughter ?

No I wouldn't but what can I do? I wouldn't be happy if she bought back a hello angels biker or a member of the communist party but thats my morals. If there was something fundamentally wrong with an 80yo sleeping with a 16 year old surely there would be a law against it.

 

[cowboy]

If a 50 year old can't have sex with a 16 year old there would be no market for Russian/Thai bride sites

 

[MartynK]

Hmm. I remember a client in South Africa asking me to visit one of their directors at home to do a threat and risk assessment after he'd been targeted for two armed home invasions. I suppose he was about 50. He called someone, asking her to bring coffee, and a stunning girl, probably in her early 20s, brought it and he introduced me to "his wife". Just as well he did, because I might have told him what a lovely daughter he had!

 

[norters]

No I wouldn't but what can I do? I wouldn't be happy if she bought back a hello angels biker or a member of the communist party but thats my morals. If there was something fundamentally wrong with an 80yo sleeping with a 16 year old surely there would be a law against it.

Are your last two posts in this thread jokes? Are you seriously serious? If so, it's absolutely frightening.

 

[MartynK]

No I wouldn't but what can I do? I wouldn't be happy if she bought back a hello angels biker or a member of the communist party but thats my morals. If there was something fundamentally wrong with an 80yo sleeping with a 16 year old surely there would be a law against it.

This is about your value judgements and personal opinons, not your morality.

 

[Russ77]

No I wouldn't but what can I do? I wouldn't be happy if she bought back a hello angels biker or a member of the communist party but thats my morals. If there was something fundamentally wrong with an 80yo sleeping with a 16 year old surely there would be a law against it.

It's absolutely disgusting if a 16yo is with an 80yo and there should be a law against it!

I mean it's totally outrageous and completely exploiting one of the parties involved who has everything to lose.

Until they change the law, 16-20 year old women will keep exploiting old men in order to be the sole beneficiaries of their estates

OK I jest but in all seriousness....... I don't think I know any 80 year olds who would stand half a chance of keeping up with a woman of that age.... well not unless they have shares in Viagra

 

[DrGed]

If there was something fundamentally wrong with an 80yo sleeping with a 16 year old surely there would be a law against it.

There's no law against me having sex with all the women in the street but I'm fairly sure my wife would think there's something fundamantally wrong with it.

I'd say your reasoning was quite flawed.

 

[Yves Geza]

It's absolutely disgusting if a 16yo is with an 80yo and there should be a law against it!

I mean it's totally outrageous and completely exploiting one of the parties involved who has everything to lose.

Until they change the law, 16-20 year old women will keep exploiting old men in order to be the sole beneficiaries of their estates

OK I jest but in all seriousness....... I don't think I know any 80 year olds who would stand half a chance of keeping up with a woman of that age.... well not unless they have shares in Viagra

I met my 65 year old mate arm in arm with a glamourous 19 year old blonde and asked him "how the hell did you pull her at your age?" He answered "Shush about it!! I've told her I'm 83 with a heart condition!"

 

[simonblue]

Didn't John Peel once say :They never told us,we didn't ask :.

Which kinda said we knew we might get into trouble,but we were taking a risk that in those days no one said anything.
History has proved that quite often people in position of power,will try and get away with things they know are not right,but use their position to get away with it.
Once the Jimmy Savile case broke some of them must have known that their pass might catch up with them

 

[Hugh Jarse]

Have been following this thread but have to say it seems to be drifting wildly.

Some talk about "morals" and quite frankly that is a whole subject in itself. One person's morals, based on an inherited or indoctrinated belief system may well be abhorrent to another and has no part of right or wrong. The law on sexual intercourse between men and womdn is defined in law not morality. That it is 16 years of age, AND, with parental approval also allows marriage to take place at that age, sets the norm. The law does not define the age of consentual intercourse between men and women on an age difference "grid" of acceptable age ranges. Try defining "love" within that! We have no control over who we fall in love with.

The age of consent seems arbitary for sure but where do we go with trying to protect or stop those "under-age" from having sex "before their time".

This thread started with the notice of the arrest and charging of Dave Lee Travers and the following discussion seemed to have "celebrities" guilty of every malfeasance possible. DLT has not faced the courts yet and apart from Stuart Hall and Gary Glitter who else has? Genuine request for info there.

The 60s was a strange time and yes underage girls did get into a scene of sorts - some, like the Profumo Affair involved under age or "barely legal" (whatever that means) girls. You could hardly go to a pop concert from 65 onwards and definitely into the 70s without gaggles of teen girls hanging around the stage doors of theatres/concert hall etc. Fully done up you would need a bone scan to age date some of them.

I remember one of my neighbour's daughter as a very buxom tall long legged beauty we all fancied (as 15 year olds). She always looked very grown up. She was 12!! I would have defied anyone to see the child and not the woman. You could ask why the parents "allowed" her to behave the way she did. Absolute 'Jailbait' for any man.

It would seem that the breadth of the incidents that may have or may not have occurred with the named charged celebs or those under inestigation may fail in the courts due to the period of time and lack of evidence. I feel the possibility of conviction on the balance of probability to be one that could cause major problems in time to come should appeals undermine cases so determined. As others have said, where is the proof after such time.

I would suggest that morals and beliefs should have little part to play in the absolutes of the legal system. Just because your belief system states that something is wrong there may be 7 billion people on the planet who might disagree.

Though only a moot point, it might be worth looking at the legal age of consent in other countries. Might they be wrong 'morally' too if less than 16? Like the 13 in Spain or 11 in Paraguay? These are somewhat misleading as different jurisdictions have "qualifiers" in the laws covering acceptability. My point here is that moralising does not answer the issue which can only truly be defined in court when all tbe factors are known and a Judge sets a decision based on 'facts', uses case law and sentencing guidelines to set a tariff of punishment against proven guilt.

Rather them than I.

Steve

 

[Russ77]

I met my 65 year old mate arm in arm with a glamourous 19 year old blonde and asked him "how the hell did you pull her at your age?" He answered "Shush about it!! I've told her I'm 83 with a heart condition!"

HAHA!!! Love it!

Jokes aside, there's no reason a 16yo couldn't be happy & in love with an 80yo.

Not quite that extreme but there's 25 years age gap between my wife's parents, she was 22 when they got married nearly 30 years ago.

I know there was a fair amount of controversy when they got together, I think she was 19 at the time, he was in his mid-40s and divorced.

There's an unwritten "age of decency" of half your age plus 7, i.e. if you're 40 years old only women of 27 and older are considered to be fair game (I've only transgressed twice... I think ) but that's only a perceptional thing based on society over the years.

When I was 21 I was seeing a 17 year old, the biggest problems came when she turned 18 and her new found freedom of being old enough to go clubbing/pubbing meant that's all she wanted to do. I was only 22/23 when this happened but having a full-time job and getting up at 6am everyday meant that I didn't really like going out Thurs/Fri/Saturday night until 3am.

After about a year we went our separate ways because we quite simply wanted different things from a relationship.

Age gap is only one factor in any kind of relationship, there could only be a few days difference in age but one partner could be controlling/abusive towards the other.

Providing both parties are happy and consenting I don't think there's much of a big deal.

 

[andya700]

It's absolutely disgusting if a 16yo is with an 80yo and there should be a law against it!

I mean it's totally outrageous and completely exploiting one of the parties involved who has everything to lose.

Until they change the law, 16-20 year old women will keep exploiting old men in order to be the sole beneficiaries of their estates

OK I jest but in all seriousness....... I don't think I know any 80 year olds who would stand half a chance of keeping up with a woman of that age.... well not unless they have shares in Viagra

Exactly, why would all those young, well endowed ladies stay around Hugh Hefner that long?

 

[andya700]

Didn't John Peel once say :They never told us,we didn't ask :.

Which kinda said we knew we might get into trouble,but we were taking a risk that in those days no one said anything.
History has proved that quite often people in position of power,will try and get away with things they know are not right,but use their position to get away with it.

Not just people in positions of power.
I used to go to nightclubs in the mid seventies/mid eighties, when I was 16/26 or so, and I would never have dreamed of asking a girl how old she was. I was so desperate that if any girl was up for a dance (particularly at the end of the evening - because I hadn't pulled by then), then we would end up in a clinch.

Imagine the alternative conversation:

"I say, you look a jolly nice girl, but would you happen to have your birth certificate on you, just so that we could establish quite clearly, whether or not we can take things a stage further if we feel mutually obliged to?"


I would guess that she would have wandered off into the distance, never to be seen again.

Good manners and the sensible approach never got me anywhere - and more than a few girls told me that I was "too nice".

 

[DemiLion]

This thread started with the notice of the arrest and charging of Dave Lee Travers and the following discussion seemed to have "celebrities" guilty of every malfeasance possible. DLT has not faced the courts yet and apart from Stuart Hall and Gary Glitter who else has? Genuine request for info there.

Jonathan King - 7 years, served 3½, still claims innocence.

Chris Langham - 6 months (reduced from 10 on appeal) for pornography charges

Cases pending:

Michael Le Vell - hearing due Sept 2013

William Roache - Jan 2014

That's the confirmed trial dates - there are a few more under investigation and pending.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

Jonathan King - 7 years, served 3½, still claims innocence.

Chris Langham - 6 months (reduced from 10 on appeal) for pornography charges

Cases pending:

Michael Le Vell - hearing due Sept 2013

William Roache - Jan 2014

That's the confirmed trial dates - there are a few more under investigation and pending.

TY

Forgot about Jonathan King.

So just 3 (incl Gary Glitter) convicted before Stuart Hall.

Still 3 too many. There is no excuse for theit targetting kids.

S

 

[cambsno]

Not just people in positions of power.
I used to go to nightclubs in the mid seventies/mid eighties, when I was 16/26 or so, and I would never have dreamed of asking a girl how old she was. I was so desperate that if any girl was up for a dance (particularly at the end of the evening - because I hadn't pulled by then), then we would end up in a clinch.

Imagine the alternative conversation:

"I say, you look a jolly nice girl, but would you happen to have your birth certificate on you, just so that we could establish quite clearly, whether or not we can take things a stage further if we feel mutually obliged to?"

I would guess that she would have wandered off into the distance, never to be seen again.

Good manners and the sensible approach never got me anywhere - and more than a few girls told me that I was "too nice".

Lol. I never had much success in early 20s, would have had even less if I had applied rules!!!

 

[Nod]

Caroline Flack, anyone? Yes, he was 18 but she's still 14 years older than him. Doesn't make anything right but shows that it does work both ways.

 

[cambsno]

Caroline Flack, anyone? Yes, he was 18 but she's still 14 years older than him. Doesn't make anything right but shows that it does work both ways.

That's every teenage boys dream.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

Caroline Flack, anyone? Yes, he was 18 but she's still 14 years older than him. Doesn't make anything right but shows that it does work both ways.

When I was 19 I met and "went out" with an older woman. She was 21 years oldr than me and it was...... incredible.

She and I were exclusive for 6 months but we stayed friends after we ceased as a couple. I sadly attended her funeral 2 years ago and it was nice to catch up with people who we had known. I was very lucky to have known her.

There was nothing sinister in what occurred and not that unusual. I matured early in any case.

Barbara Windsor is , I think; twice the age of her husband. So at what age is the age difference no longer a problem, if ever?

Steve

 

[norters]

That's every teenage boys dream.

Beyond parody now!!!!

 

[onomatopoeia]

So at what age is the age difference no longer a problem, if ever?

It's the age where both people are entirely comfortable with each other and what they are doing. That will only be known to the people involved and it can be as much or more about attitude and way of living as about looks or experience.

So, a personal example. At one point in my past I was involved with someone rather older than me. Not the sort of age difference that you related, but enough to raise some eyebrows. I was the first person she had dated that was younger than her, until then she was another of those women that had a history of dating men at least 3 or 4 years older right back to her schooldays. Despite this it worked for us and continued to do so for several years, but at the same time through her social circle I met other women the same age as her that while attractive in looks I would never have thought about, because to me they were "old", by which I mean in their outlook on life.

Trying to write down hard and fast rules like "someone in their twenties dating a 16 year old is a nonce" (can women be "nonces"? I'm not a great user of pejoratives so have no idea) takes no account of the fact that we aren't all cast from identical moulds. Two people can sometimes make an unlikely relationship work because they are compatible and no matter how much opprobrium it generates amongs moral guardians on the internet, or how much everyone thinks one is "exploiting" the other.

The same things applies to the "at least half age plus seven" thing, nonsense.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

It's the age where both people are entirely comfortable with each other and what they are doing. That will only be known to the people involved and it can be as much or more about attitude and way of living as about looks or experience.

So, a personal example. At one point in my past I was involved with someone rather older than me. Not the sort of age difference that you related, but enough to raise some eyebrows. I was the first person she had dated that was younger than her, until then she was another of those women that had a history of dating men at least 3 or 4 years older right back to her schooldays. Despite this it worked for us and continued to do so for several years, but at the same time through her social circle I met other women the same age as her that while attractive in looks I would never have thought about, because to me they were "old", by which I mean in their outlook on life.

Trying to write down hard and fast rules like "someone in their twenties dating a 16 year old is a nonce" (can women be "nonces"? I'm not a great user of pejoratives so have no idea) takes no account of the fact that we aren't all cast from identical moulds. Two people can sometimes make an unlikely relationship work because they are compatible and no matter how much opprobrium it generates amongs moral guardians on the internet, or how much everyone thinks one is "exploiting" the other.

The same things applies to the "at least half age plus seven" thing, nonsense.

I would not disagree with you one bit

As for the nonce concept - not a word I would describe anyone.

Its prejidice on many levels.

My friend's sister at 19 married a 49 year old man. They had 3 children and a wonderful marriage. 30 years on she is the age he was when they met and they still enjoy a brillant life. Still as dotty about each other as ever. A nonce? Hardly but I fo understand ehy some may see it that way - jeslousy, bitterness. outrage at such behaviour - blah!

Steve

 

[Byker28i]

My point is that it is never okay to shag underage children regardless of the circumstances

Taking this point slightly out of context, What age is correct for underage girls then moose, seeing as its different all around the world. In the uk it used to be 13, 13 in Spain (was 12 in 1996) is currently 12 in Vatican city. Turkey I think is 18.
(playing devils advocate)

If its 16, is it ok for someone who's 16 with a younger mental age? What about if your 16 with a nearly 16 year old girlfriend.
Things aren't ever black and white and the law recognises that.

 

[cambsno]

Taking this point slightly out of context, What age is correct for underage girls then moose, seeing as its different all around the world. In the uk it used to be 13, 13 in Spain (was 12 in 1996) is currently 12 in Vatican city. Turkey I think is 18.
(playing devils advocate)

If its 16, is it ok for someone who's 16 with a younger mental age? What about if your 16 with a nearly 16 year old girlfriend.
Things aren't ever black and white and the law recognises that.

I would argue that a huge chunk of guys are technically peados as (thinking about when I was younger) it was not uncommon for say a 17yo to be with a 14 or 15yo