Crufts

cowboy said:
How do we know that the cubes of meat with the poison inside weren't coated in another poison or even the same one?

That could explain why the meat was undigested :)
Click to expand...


How about the meat was in a time locked capsule that self destructed once it had opened leaving just
the meat and poison ;)(y)
 
Unfortunately Bernie, this thread is in the Out Of Focus area of the forum, so that means people will discuss whatever they like. People have opinions, so why shouldn't they express them? I, and others, simply reacted to something we had read, and to be honest, whatever the truth turns out to be, I stand by my opinion that this has been a terrible thing to happen. If you dont like that or agree with it...well, that's just tough eh?

Earlier on in the thread where you were accusing me of presenting my opinions as fact (and you were subsequently shown to be wrong) ; dont worry, your lack of acknowledgement is absolutely fine by me. Amusing, actually.
 
Cobra said:
That was aimed directly at Bernie, when he said that his dog died around an hour of eating "poison" ;)

My post 104 in case you missed it BTW
Click to expand...


Oooooh Sorry :(:p
 
It's sad that 2 dogs are dead and 6 more are sick after attending crufts and it's a pity that toxicology reports take so long. Best case is that it's a disease, something like parvo rather than some nutter trying to make some sort of insane point about the pedigree dog world which I'm guessing is why many people in this thread are desperately arguing against the idea of poison. Rememberer in the 80s when animal rights activists set all of those lab animals "free" only to have them die or return to the lab because domesticated animals can't survive in the the wild :(
 
Decca said:
It's sad that 2 dogs are dead and 6 more are sick after attending crufts and it's a pity that toxicology reports take so long. Best case is that it's a disease, something like parvo rather than some nutter trying to make some sort of insane point about the pedigree dog world which I'm guessing is why many people in this thread are desperately arguing against the idea of poison. Rememberer in the 80s when animal rights activists set all of those lab animals "free" only to have them die or return to the lab because domesticated animals can't survive in the the wild :(
Click to expand...
I used to know one of these animal rights nutters once, he was so far up his own arse that he just couldn't see anything wrong with 'liberating' lab animals and 'taking direct action' against the people who worked at the labs.
I did try to explain that 'liberating' farmed mink and releasing them into the wild caused massive problems for the other wildlife, but logic was alien to him.
The latest nutter craze is catching urban foxes and releasing them into the wild, where they die of starvation because
1. They don't have a territory to call their own
2. They have no hunting skills.

And the lack of hunting skills forces them to attack livestock, which leads to people like me hunting them - at least a rifle bullet is much more humane than death by starvation, but the animal nutters just won't see the problems they are causing..
 
@Garry Edwards don't get me started on PETA either, I think they were bessed summed up by "PETA we hate people", the statistics for their "rehoming" centre is chilling at best http://www.petakillsanimals.com/proof-peta-kills/ the reason the kill figures are so high is because they have extremely strict adoption rules, you have to be at least vegetarian and be able to prove that you have a secure back garden of X size, and be able to take your dog out for a hour exercise three times a day. Also you have to pass the interview. This is why in 2008 they adopted 7 animals out of 2,216 and killed 2,124 of them because apparently death is preferable to living with someone who eats bacon.
 
Bernie174 said:
Why should I do all the thinking for some, besides, look at the silly comments when I didn't join in the self beating in sympathy, how would the naive have reacted if I'd pointed out the obvious?

But also I was intrigued by the 'group think' stopping people from saying what Garry did eventually, very brave of him I thought, given the attitude displayed by some.
Click to expand...

Oh for goodness sake - a group of people taking a news report at face value and agreeing that they believe the poisoning of a dog is not a nice thing to have happened (regardless of where or when it happened) does not constitute 'groupthink'. It also doesn't constitute outrage, self beating sympathy or mild hysteria.

If you had the ability to engage in a conversation rather than acting like a narcissistic windbag in a perpetual debate I believe 'the naïve' would display less of an attitude towards you. You'll notice that no one has attacked Garry for voicing his opinion.

That doesn't make him brave - it just means he has superior interpersonal skills to yourself and the ability to articulate his point in a non antagonistic or competitive manner.
 
Decca said:
It's sad that 2 dogs are dead and 6 more are sick after attending crufts and it's a pity that toxicology reports take so long. Best case is that it's a disease, something like parvo rather than some nutter trying to make some sort of insane point about the pedigree dog world which I'm guessing is why many people in this thread are desperately arguing against the idea of poison. Rememberer in the 80s when animal rights activists set all of those lab animals "free" only to have them die or return to the lab because domesticated animals can't survive in the the wild :(
Click to expand...
It's very sad, but the antics of some on here is sadder.
 
Unfortunately Bernie, this thread is in the Out Of Focus area of the forum, so that means people will discuss whatever they like. People have opinions, so why shouldn't they express them? I, and others, simply reacted to something we had read,
Click to expand...

Oh, so is that really, express opinions so long as you agree with them? But of course no one must ever put any other point of view must they. If you'd tried discussion, not attack, you would have had a different response.


Earlier on in the thread where you were accusing me of presenting my opinions as fact (and you were subsequently shown to be wrong) ; dont worry, your lack of acknowledgement is absolutely fine by me. Amusing, actually.
Click to expand...

You mean when you embellished things by saying a vet had done something, that clearly he hadn't?
You've not shown anything that I said as wrong Nick, so try again.
 
Bernie174 said:
Oh, so is that really, express opinions so long as you agree with them? But of course no one must ever put any other point of view must they. If you'd tried discussion, not attack, you would have had a different response.




You mean when you embellished things by saying a vet had done something, that clearly he hadn't?
You've not shown anything that I said as wrong Nick, so try again.
Click to expand...

Go back and read it Bernie.
 
Bernie174 said:
Again Nick, you've not shown anything other than you embellished something that was based on hearsay.
Click to expand...

I took a report at face value (so shoot me) and expressed opinion based on that (shoot me again). I said, "...appears to have...". I didnt say ..."has done"... So, in all of this, it appears you are putting words in my mouth, and making things up to fit your own agenda. Sound familiar? The very thing you are accusing others of, because we read something and had an opinion on it. For the record, Bernie, ive not attacked you for having a different opinion to me. If that was the case, I would have 'attacked' Garry also. I reacted to the way you constantly feel the need to try and belittle people. It does nothing positive for your reputation or for the feelings others have towards you.
 
Just seen a report on the BBC news channel, stating that the postmortem has confirmed that there were 2 different poisons found in the dogs stomach that are both very fast acting, so symptoms would have been apparent from about 30 minutes after ingestion, so definitely not poisoned at crafts. Apologies again that I have also taken this report at face value, and that I maintain that this is a terrible thing.
 
Cobra said:
I'm curious did the vet find out what exactly it was?
Click to expand...

From the BBC News

Severe symptoms from the two poisons - carbofuran and aldicarb, which are banned in the EU - would usually occur within 30 minutes to three hours, the club said.
Click to expand...

You and a lot of others Nick, don't let it worry you, doubt we will ever know if it was deliberate or accidental
 
Nikon_Nick said:
Just seen a report on the BBC news channel, stating that the postmortem has confirmed that there were 2 different poisons found in the dogs stomach that are both very fast acting, so symptoms would have been apparent from about 30 minutes after ingestion, so definitely not poisoned at crafts. Apologies again that I have also taken this report at face value, and that I maintain that this is a terrible thing.
Click to expand...

No shame in taking some things at face value Nick.
God forbid you become a tired old cynic :-)
 
Nikon_Nick said:
Just seen a report on the BBC news channel, stating that the postmortem has confirmed that there were 2 different poisons found in the dogs stomach that are both very fast acting, so symptoms would have been apparent from about 30 minutes after ingestion, so definitely not poisoned at crafts.
Click to expand...
I caught part of that on the radio earlier too.



Nikon_Nick said:
Apologies again that I have also taken this report at face value, and that I maintain that this is a terrible thing.
Click to expand...
Does "stocks and rotten fruit" mean anything to you Mike? :p

People per se will comment on the available info provided at the time, its human nature
Seriously you're not the first and you won't be the last, don't worry about it.
 
The illegal poisons found (odd that there is both aldicarb and carbofuran, but the full toxicology report has yet to be published) are notable because they commonly used by those criminals who poison protected birds such as raptors:-
https://raptorpersecutionscotland.wordpress.com/tag/aldicarb/
https://raptorpersecutionscotland.wordpress.com/tag/carbofuran/

Be interested to see whether the dog was in an area where poisoned bait was being laid down.

BTW these two poisons are also lethal to humans.
 
Nikon_Nick said:
Just seen a report on the BBC news channel, stating that the postmortem has confirmed that there were 2 different poisons found in the dogs stomach that are both very fast acting, so symptoms would have been apparent from about 30 minutes after ingestion, so definitely not poisoned at crafts. Apologies again that I have also taken this report at face value, and that I maintain that this is a terrible thing.
Click to expand...
Stop being so f*****g polite, to quote a great legend :) what else can be done to comment on face value until all the facts are know. Can't see anything wrong with that.
 
viv1969 said:
Were any humans poisoned that we know of?
Click to expand...

Not heard of any in the reports, but TBH these poison baits are normally put down for wildlife albeit illegal

Apparently the manufacture one of them was involved in the Bhopal disaster that killed nearly 3,000 people in India
 
SarahLee said:
Would it be normal practice to 'sew' those poisons into pieces of meat if put down for wildlife?
Just curious really, given that was the description in the early reports.
Click to expand...
If you want a scavenger to take it yes absolutely, small pieces will be "wolfed down" without chewing, that applies to mammals as well as birds.

What I don't get though is that the meat was apparently undigested, so neither would the poison have been.
Unless of course it was also coated in the poison.

But the point of sewing it into meat would disguise any unpleasant taste that may or may not have been added by the manufactures.
ie rats poisons in this country have a "BitterX" added. To make kids spit it out should they some how get hold of it and put it in their mouth.
 
SarahLee said:
Would it be normal practice to 'sew' those poisons into pieces of meat if put down for wildlife?
Just curious really, given that was the description in the early reports.
Click to expand...

Many years ago in my mis-spent youth we had several dogs die from accidental poisoning in the area.
I was friends with the village policeman's daughter and he told me they were leaving carcasses laced with
strychnine especially during the breeding season when they could be carried back to the young
 
Cobra said:
What I don't get though is that the meat was apparently undigested, so neither would the poison have been.
Unless of course it was also coated in the poison.
Click to expand...

According to some of the dogs sites it wasn't sewn in, it was folded in, so I suppose it would just unfold in the stomach or
if the dog chewed :thinking:
 
Gremlin said:
According to some of the dogs sites it wasn't sewn in,it was folded in,
Click to expand...
Well that would make more sense, but there is also a risk of the poison falling out, before being eaten (if it was a solid, that is.)
I guess us mere mortals will never know the truth the whole truth etc ....
 
Cobra said:
Well that would make more sense, but there is also a risk of the poison falling out, before being eaten (if it was a solid, that is.)
I guess us mere mortals will never know the truth the whole truth etc ....
Click to expand...

It is a bit strange. If poisoned bait was left in a place that a roaming dog could get it there is a considerable chance that other animals, or even children , would have found it first. How the dog got the meat and where this was is not known (or been made known so far). I tend to think that there could be a twist in this story waiting to be revealed.
 
arclight said:
It is a bit strange. If poisoned bait was left in a place that a roaming dog could get it there is a considerable chance that other animals, or even children , would have found it first. How the dog got the meat and where this was is not known (or been made known so far). I tend to think that there could be a twist in this story waiting to be revealed.
Click to expand...
True, but would the people who put down poison for BOP really care about other animals? There is of course a good chance that foxes may eat it, but they would be happy about that anyway. As for children, always possible but unlikely in remote areas, and humans don't really use their olfactory senses to find food, and would be unlikely to see it...
 
arclight said:
I tend to think that there could be a twist in this story waiting to be revealed.
Click to expand...
I'm sure there is more too, things don't add up do they?
Will we ever know? dunno ...
 
Cobra said:
Well that would make more sense, but there is also a risk of the poison falling out, before being eaten (if it was a solid, that is.)
I guess us mere mortals will never know the truth the whole truth etc ....
Click to expand...

Without searching for it I think they said it was in granule form as opposed to a solid block
Still now it's no longer being tied to Crufts I doubt there will be any further updates
 
Gremlin said:
Without searching for it I think they said it was in granule form as opposed to a solid block
Still now it's no longer being tied to Crufts I doubt there will be any further updates
Click to expand...

Aldicarb is grey/black or blue/black granules.
Carbofuran is blue granules.

Mainstream press will probably lose interest in the case which is a pity because these illegal poisons are obtainable and still being used and it is only a matter of time until a child becomes a casualty. Public awareness could help counter that.

I think that follow up information will soon only appear in the dog related media.
 
Gremlin said:
Without searching for it I think they said it was in granule form as opposed to a solid block
Click to expand...

I suppose granules could "leak out" of folded meat.
I don't know much about either TBH, but Aldicarb, the bible tells me, In humans, the onset of symptoms is rapid, < 15 minutes
LD50 = 0.5 mg/kg to 1.5 mg/kg when administered in a liquid or oil form. The toxicities of the dry granules are distinctly lower (LD50 = 7.0 mg/kg),
1000mg = 1g so a 30Kg dog, would only need to consume 1/4 of a gramme for its life to be in the balance.

Carbofuran is highly toxic to vertebrates with an oral LD50 19 mg/kg in dogs. again not even a gram to make the dog extremely sick, and its life in the balance.

Both are known to be particularly toxic to birds.
And the fact that its HIGHLY toxic to birds, makes me wonder if it was an attack on wildlife rather than a dog.

But as you said, its a "none UK" event, so I guess we will never know, apart from searching the various dog forums.
 
arclight said:
Mainstream press will probably lose interest in the case which is a pity because these illegal poisons are obtainable and still being used and it is only a matter of time until a child becomes a casualty. Public awareness could help counter that.

I think that follow up information will soon only appear in the dog related media.
Click to expand...

I don't know many children that will eat raw meat so hopefully that won't happen, I am quite active on some dog forums so I'll keep an eye out
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top