Crufts

[simon ess]

Thanks.

Then it does seem odd.

 

[SarahLee]

How long would it take to digest?

According to the reports I read it was shown on Thursday and died on Friday. If the autopsy was conducted on Friday would you expect the meat to be digested still?

Not an expert by any means, but to still be able to identify chunks of meat with something 'sewn' inside, seems unlikely to me in that timeframe - assuming that what's been reported is accurate and an established fact.

Without wanting to be too graphic, what goes into a dog has some bearing on the colour and consistency of what . . . errrrm . . . comes out.
And in my experience that day's meal is usually evident when it's expelled later the same day i.e. completely digested at that point!

 

[Cobra]

How long would it take to digest?
According to the reports I read it was shown on Thursday and died on Friday. If the autopsy was conducted on Friday would you expect the meat to be digested still?

Well if the poison was sewn up in the meat, as seems to be suggested, the meat would need to be digested for the poison to act, so that in itself is a bit of a mystery.

Google suggests that "When your dog's digestive system is functioning smoothly, the typical meal takes 7- to 10-hours to pass through the digestive system"

Rat poison has been mentioned a couple of times, and I'm not aware of any single dose rat poison that works that fast. (>24 hours)

Oral LD50 for dogs exposed to warfarin was 3 mg/kg/day for 5 days.
A one off dose of Warfarin is 12 mg/kg oral ( 1mg = 1/1000 of a g)
So quite a small dose in fact,
It can be obtained as a liquid rodenticide, and the meat soaked (or even injected into it) in it, but that begs more questions than it answers TBH.

Oh and all rodenticides have a "marker trace"
So if the dog did in fact take a dump it would have had traces of either, most likely bright blue, maybe green (or possibly red) in its faeces.

 

[Gremlin]

Without wanting to be too graphic, what goes into a dog has some bearing on the colour and consistency of what . . . errrrm . . . comes out.
And in my experience that day's meal is usually evident when it's expelled later the same day i.e. completely digested at that point!

PMSL Sarah you have a wonderful way with words, and yep mine were the same

From someone more knowledgeable then me 7 to 10 hours to pass through the digestive system
He was back at home in Belgium when became ill and he died Friday night, 24 hours after competing

Well if the poison was sewn up in the meat, as seems to be suggested, the meat would need to be digested for the poison to act, so that in itself is a bit of a mystery.
Google suggests that "When your dog's digestive system is functioning smoothly, the typical meal takes 7- to 10-hours to pass through the digestive system"

Seems google agrees with my friend who I was chatting to about this earlier

Have to say the other surprise is the price tag £50,000 pounds they have put on the dog and one that came 2nd in his class

 

[fracster]

cymag?

 

[viv1969]

PMSL Sarah you have a wonderful way with words, and yep mine were the same





Seems google agrees with my friend who I was chatting to about this earlier

Have to say the other surprise is the price tag £50,000 pounds they have put on the dog and one that came 2nd in his class

Fifty grand could be only around 60 - 70 covers though.

 

[boyfalldown]

Fifty grand could be only around 60 - 70 covers though.

The owner and her daughter have ridiculed the idea the dog was worth £50k.

As an aside dogs that are used for 60-70 plus covers are are very big cause of problems for dogs and the kennel club should discourage it, in exactly the same way as they won't register litters born to mothers too young or who have had too many litters ( that's by the by though)

 

[Cobra]

cymag?

Far too risky the way it expands, into a gas, when wet, not to put too finer point on it, I suspect that the stomach may explode,
and even if it didn't, and was still contained, any vet opening up the stomach would soon be overcome by the escaping fumes.

 

[Bernie174]

I'm beginning to feel a bit suspicious about this...

From what I've heard on the radio, the dog died 2 days after leaving Crufts - and yet these lumps of meat were still intact and had not been digested, or at least not sufficiently digested for the vet to conclude that they had been cut open, poison inserted and then sewn up again - but despite this the poison had done its work.

Nothing in the world of show dogs would shock me or sound incredible, poisoning and other dirty tricks have been reported before, but this story just doesn't add up to me.

At last!

Well done Garry.

Not only does the story being peddled by the owners not make sense, they've not made any complaint to Police, Crufts or the Kennel Club. A strange thing to have not done given the allegation. No vet has come forward supporting their claim, something you'd expect to happen if there was any truth behind it.

 

[Gremlin]

As an aside dogs that are used for 60-70 plus covers are are very big cause of problems for dogs and the kennel club should discourage it, in exactly the same way as they won't register litters born to mothers too young or who have had too many litters ( that's by the by though)

Couldn't agree more, the top winning dogs are used far to often, perhaps if the KC limited the amount of litters a dog could sire
too that would be a move towards improving the breeds.
Too many of the breeders have tunnel vision and it's all about winning, I have little time for the KC, they are all about making
money.
Try mentioning limiting breeding on a breeders site and watch it kick off

 

[Gremlin]

Not only does the story being peddled by the owners not make sense, they've not made any complaint to Police, Crufts or the Kennel Club. A strange thing to have not done given the allegation. No vet has come forward supporting their claim, something you'd expect to happen if there was any truth behind it

As the dog is in Belgium and so is the Vet we will have to wait, last I heard the KC were waiting to here the results of the tests

 

[cowboy]

Reports of more dogs poisoned.

 

[Bernie174]

Yes, we will wait for Godot too, which has something in common with this 'report'.

Lets be honest here, if you had any evidence supporting this, you'd be banging on the doors of the Police/RSPCA/KC and the press. None of the words that have been attributed to the vet would have been said by anyone with half a brain cell. All of it ignores biology, its a con that so many here, and around Europe have fallen for.

 

[dejongj]

Reports of more dogs poisoned.

Yes I noticed that. We will have to see how that plays out.

 

[arclight]

Looks like this case is one for Inspector Clouseau

Quote : "Facts, Hercule, facts! Nothing matters but the facts. Without them the science of criminal investigation is nothing more than a guessing game."

 

[Gremlin]

I still can't understand why no mention has been made of the fact that the cubes of meat were still intact over
24 hours later

 

[arclight]

I still can't understand why no mention has been made of the fact that the cubes of meat were still intact over
24 hours later

Is there evidence that is a fact or is it just something unsubstantiated that was said/invented ?

 

[Gremlin]

It's what the owners says the Vet found when he opened the dog, I suppose until there is an official report we won't know
Poisoning hasn't been confirmed yet as far as I know, still waiting for a toxicology report

 

[simonblue]

I think it's time we gave the owners a chance to check their insurance policy,sorry I mean grieve

 

[Gremlin]

Well it seems the Vet is now say the same, it didn't happen at crufts HERE
Yes I know it's everyones favourite paper but others are saying the same

 

[dejongj]

It is good that there is some indication from the Vet now. Considering they called the vet at 2am, I'm wondering how the owners can have attended to him 100%. I've walked mine many a time in the dark and God knows what they shove in their mouths within a split second. My pet hate is people leaving tissue on the ground. A tiny bit of meat would be swallowed without chewing before and owner would see it in the dark.

It will be interesting to see what happened with the second dog.

 

[Bernie174]

The problem here is the owners inventing a story, which then gets added to by others. A good example being here, where suddenly the Vet:

"...apart from the person/vet that did the postmortem and found the 3 cubes of poisoned beef in the dogs stomach"

And

"The vet appears to have used something called its 'experience'"

None of which was in reality what the vet said, it was pure invention and assumption by someone on here who had an axe to grind and no experienced or knowledge on the subject.

Perhaps people will start to think before they assume that the reports they read are true and accurate. In this case it was clearly not true, and yes, Nick in spite of your allegations I have 2 lots of experience, one with my own dog who died after eating rat poison, it took around an hour for that to happen from when it must have ingested it to being dead, not nearly a day. And the same sort of times with a dog the owners insisted was poisoned intentionally, that I investigated with the RSPCA Inspector for the local area,. same thing, it eat some rat poison there was no intentional killing.

Now, I might have had some sympathy had it not been obvious from experience that the substance didn't get into the dog at Crufts, and the owners must have known that, as their story was entirely different from what the vet is saying. Simon mentioned Insurance earlier. A good point, was it insured? If not and it had died as a result of something at crufts...?

 

[simon ess]

An awful lot of airy bluff and bluster there when you could have made an early positive contribution to the discussion by simply saying you didn't think it happened at Crufts and stating your reasons.

I guess you prefer the air up there on that very high horse of yours though.

 

[Cobra]

one with my own dog who died after eating rat poison, it took around an hour for that to happen from when it must have ingested it to being dead,

I'm curious did the vet find out what exactly it was?

Rat poisons don't kill rats that fast. and you can assume a max body weight of 1Kg.
for an adult male, and > half that for an adult female

My posts 74 / 76 & 83 give details of LD 50 of the most common rodenticeds,

 

[Bernie174]

An awful lot of airy bluff and bluster there when you could have made an early positive contribution to the discussion by simply saying you didn't think it happened at Crufts and stating your reasons.

Why should I do all the thinking for some, besides, look at the silly comments when I didn't join in the self beating in sympathy, how would the naive have reacted if I'd pointed out the obvious?

But also I was intrigued by the 'group think' stopping people from saying what Garry did eventually, very brave of him I thought, given the attitude displayed by some.

 

[Garry Edwards]

The problem here is the owners inventing a story, which then gets added to by others. A good example being here, where suddenly the Vet:

"...apart from the person/vet that did the postmortem and found the 3 cubes of poisoned beef in the dogs stomach"

And

"The vet appears to have used something called its 'experience'"

None of which was in reality what the vet said, it was pure invention and assumption by someone on here who had an axe to grind and no experienced or knowledge on the subject.

Perhaps people will start to think before they assume that the reports they read are true and accurate. In this case it was clearly not true, and yes, Nick in spite of your allegations I have 2 lots of experience, one with my own dog who died after eating rat poison, it took around an hour for that to happen from when it must have ingested it to being dead, not nearly a day. And the same sort of times with a dog the owners insisted was poisoned intentionally, that I investigated with the RSPCA Inspector for the local area,. same thing, it eat some rat poison there was no intentional killing.

Now, I might have had some sympathy had it not been obvious from experience that the substance didn't get into the dog at Crufts, and the owners must have known that, as their story was entirely different from what the vet is saying. Simon mentioned Insurance earlier. A good point, was it insured? If not and it had died as a result of something at crufts...?

An hour may be possible, it's outside my own experience though.
I once had a dog who ate some rat poison, at least that's the vet's belief, she had a bad attack of the runs the following day and was up and down for months before suddenly bleeding to death. Sadly for her, she obviously only ingested a small amount and I didn't know about it at the time.

Then, a few months ago, my youngest son's working sheepdog ate a huge amount. I took about 40 minutes to get her to the vet, she was immediately given a morphine injection to make her vomit and all of the poison came out completely undigested and still in its wrappers, no after effects other than a large bill

According to the vet, there is a window of opportunity of about 1 hour, after that it's too late. This is related to the speed at which the dog digests, not to the amount ingested. After about 1 hour, induced vomiting is too late, and once any symptoms are apparently, again it's too late. There may still be some hope, a vitamin K injection can have some effect as an antidote, although here of course the quantity would be relevant.

To my mind, the strangest thing about the Irish Setter story is the assertion that the meat had not been digested, and yet the dog had died. Presumably even though the poison appears to be a pesticide and not a rat poison, the digestion process would be the same.

 

[SFTPhotography]

I do find it odd how more people seem to get upset when dogs cats are killed than human beings ?

As do I....

 

[Bernie174]

Rat poisons don't kill rats that fast. and you can assume a max body weight of 1Kg.
for an adult male, and > half that for an adult female

Depends what it is and what quantity is ingested. In the same way as alcohol is a poison for humans, but wont normally kill you if you have a little bit. But try drinking a large quantity and it can kill you very easily and quickly.
And the quantity thats laying about is dependent on who put it down, why and where. In my dogs case, it was some YTS numpty employed by the Met Police Housing Department who had no idea, and chucked it willy nilly round some police married quarters. The dog munched it up as it ran round under supervision, I certainly didn't notice what it was doing. It was only after the PM when the vet found a large amount partly digested inside the dog that it became obvious what had happened, the why came later.

Adding to what Garry said, my dog was a puppy, so possibly being smaller needed less to kill.

To my mind, the strangest thing about the Irish Setter story is the assertion that the meat had not been digested, and yet the dog had died. Presumably even though the poison appears to be a pesticide and not a rat poison, the digestion process would be the same.

Garry thats what was howling out as obviously rubbish in this whole thing. As I said, it was brave of you to come out when you did, and its a shame that some people didn't take the opportunity to think before leaping on the outrage bus calling at Proxy only.

 

[Nikon_Nick]

Ok Bernie, one more time especially for you as you are obviously intent on generating bad feeling. All I did in my original comments, was voice an opinion on a report I read. Added to that, I said that the poisoning was a terrible thing to happen. ..which it is. It remains a terrible thing no matter WHERE or by who the dog was poisoned. Now I obviously expect you to argue more about that, which just proves that you live up to my pet name for you (Thrush, in case you are wondering).

 

[Cobra]

Then, a few months ago, my youngest son's working sheepdog ate a huge amount. I took about 40 minutes to get her to the vet, she was immediately given a morphine injection to make her vomit and all of the poison came out completely undigested and still in its wrappers, no after effects other than a large bill

I can only assume that it was "pasta bait" that is the only one served in wrappers, roughly the size of a tea bag and usually the contents are red or blue.

According to the vet, there is a window of opportunity of about 1 hour, after that it's too late. This is related to the speed at which the dog digests, not to the amount ingested. After about 1 hour, induced vomiting is too late, and once any symptoms are apparently, again it's too late. There may still be some hope, a vitamin K injection can have some effect as an antidote, although here of course the quantity would be relevant.

Obviously I have never tried to kill a dog
But the research tells us that a rat can take a lethal dose, in one sitting, and go off and feed elsewhere for a day or two, and not die.
K1 is a very effective antidote and many of the green salad / green veg type foods that we eat, contain K1
so basically a rat scavenging a supermarket bin is almost impossible to kill with conventional poisons.

Depends what it is and what quantity is ingested.

Exactly! I've already told you once what the LD 50's are. But just to re-iterate Warfarin is 12 mg/kg and second gen. 5-600mg / Kg
So I ask again, what did the vet say the poison was?
A normal anti coagulant 1st generation (Warfarine and the like) takes up to two weeks to kill, a 2nd generation anti-coagulant such as difenacoum, brodifacoum,flocoumafen and bromadiolone,
assuming a lethal does has been ingested, either in one sitting or a few sittings and assuming that its not also fed on a K1 rich food, >7 days.
And of course this also assumes that the target species has taken the lethal dosage.

 

[simon ess]

Garry thats what was howling out as obviously rubbish in this whole thing.

And yet you chose not to point this out in a manner conducive to sensible discussion but chose instead to leave it long enough for you to self justify belittling other contributers.

As I said, it was brave of you to come out when you did

No it wasn't. It's what you should have done earlier, and is what others did once the information about the undigested meat became clear.

outrage bus calling at Proxy only

You're fixated on this nonsense.

 

[viv1969]

Well well....who knew the outrage bus is actually driven by constable condescension!

 

[Gremlin]

So I ask again, what did the vet say the poison was?

From the newspaper report

An autopsy carried out by his colleague Dr Claudia Minsen discovered miniscule black pellets similar to those used by farmers apparently ‘folded’ into pieces of beef in his stomach.

Dr Jans said: ‘There were not three different types of poison as some people have speculated - only one. We think it may have been a pesticide.

‘Those kind of products are very common in agriculture and are relatively easy to get hold of.
Dr Jans said he had sent samples to the toxology department at the University of Ghent who are expected to report their findings early next week.

He said: ‘It depends on the product, but I think when we have an indication of what product it was, then we can see a time scale of when things happened

Be interesting to see what the results are

 

[Cobra]

From the newspaper report

That was aimed directly at Bernie, when he said that his dog died around an hour of eating "poison"

My post 104 in case you missed it BTW

 

[Bernie174]

And yet you chose not to point this out in a manner conducive to sensible discussion but chose instead to leave it long enough for you to self justify belittling other contributers.

Yes, I did. If I hadn't been attacked from the start, maybe I'd have approached it differently. However, as is the norm, it was attack anyone who doesn't tow the line of some. So, for a change, I rather enjoyed some of you make idiots of yourselves.

No it wasn't. It's what you should have done earlier, and is what others did once the information about the undigested meat became clear.

As it was abundantly apparent from the very first news reports on the subject, and those of you who don't like deviation from your own party line couldn't work it out, it was much more amusing watching you all fall over yourselves to do the faux outrage. If you want sensible debate, then you have to create the environment for it., That means instead of Viv going off on her shrill insults spree, actually making a point that has some relevance.
It means Nick not getting out of his box because someone doesn't feel the need to see the issue at the same level as he does. It means not misrepresenting things, it means discussing, not insulting.

You're fixated on this nonsense.

No, far from it. I don't see the need to express my sympathy publicly at every incident that happens in the world. I don't know the people involved, I never will. The fixation is not opposing it, it's doing it. A bit like doing the RIP thing. Its not there to make anyone except yourself feel better. If you feel the need to do it it has as much meaning, and some would say more saying to yourself.

 

[viv1969]

I could save a fortune in heating bills if I produced as much hot air as that.

 

[cowboy]

How do we know that the cubes of meat with the poison inside weren't coated in another poison or even the same one?

That could explain why the meat was undigested

 

[Bernie174]

Sorry Cobra

I missed your question.
I can't recall, the quality or what it was off the top of my head, this was over 25 years ago. The statement from the Vet served on the Met at the time had the drug and the effects as well as quantity, but its not something I kept. They did pay out though for the emergency call out of the vet and the cost of the dog in the first place.

 

[Bernie174]

I could save a fortune in heating bills if I produced as much hot air as that.

Ah, shes off again. Sit back and they can plug your chair back in.

 

[viv1969]

Actually, since we're going on Bernies own version on what his "vet said", how do we know it's not simply a made up version for the purposes of this thread?