crit'in others work *mini rant*

Venomator said:



:lol:


At least when it's wound up the result is an extra two lines over the norm ... :woot: ... even with the edit ... :shrug: ...


... at least it shows you are already offering more now ... :naughty:








Seriously though ... :suspect: ... a forum like this growing so fast with a huge number of new members in a relatively short time has to accept threads like this are bound to get repeated time and again and it will not get everything right all of the time ... FACT ... :D


Whilst it certainly does no real harm I have to say, having experienced a few such threads, and despite all the well intentioned talk and bravado that it actually doesn't do a whole heap of good either.

People either want to just share their images for whatever reason they may have or they really do want critical commentary ... they must just make sure the image is in the right place so we all know what the expectation is ... and, if it is just a 'nice' comment, then take it as compliment someone spent time looking at and commenting on your image ... ;)


And don't take life too seriously whatever ... :D


:p
Click to expand...

lol nice reply.
 
I can sympathise with any poster on here who says they feel reluctant to post because they're afraid they won;t get any response, and I can also sympathise with anyone who feels that if your "face doesn't fit" you won't get many views, or indeed responses. One person can post a shot which will get 100+ views in a day, and responses into double figures. Another shot posted at the same time will end the day with 30-50 views, and maybe one or two responses......

Earlier on I spotted a thread somewhere down towards the bottom of the page on general sharing. It had been posted up mid-evening yesterday, yet had only one response and 30 views. Cross to Animals and Nature and there is a post which went up mid-afternoon today, and yet already had 13 responses and 130+ views! Both threads had titles which basically described their subjects, but weren't designed as a hook to draw people in, IMO. However, one was from a new-ish member posting their first shot, the other was from someone who might be percived by some as being part of an "in crowd". What makes the difference?

It's definately disheartening when you take a shot - perhaps even with TP sharing in mind, process it, upload it to webspace and then link it onto here, and then, next time you look a few hours on, very few responses and often very few views. Personally if people look at something I've posted and think "Ooh - that's nice" - then I would be delighted that they took the trouble to say so on the thread. If someone wanted to give more detailed feedback, then fine also. I usually end my sharing posts with "All comments welcome" which I hope sums this feeling up reasonably well. As for the idea that to criticise you have to be rude or brutal - for goodness sake - have you lot never heard of being tactful?!
 
Zookeeper said:
I must admit I have been put off posting any pictures as yet for fear of the C&Cs or maybe the lack of them!!

I just take photos for fun, photos of things I like and then get my favourites printed out (nowhere fancy just boots lol) then stick them in an album and look at them!

Most of the photos on here are amazingly good and I do feel for us newbies and 'fun' photographers who like what we like, not because its perfect or good.

I am guilty of 'lovely photoing!' usually animals at zoos iv come to know like my own over the years and dont feel 'qualified' to go into details.

Maybe I will take the plunge one day and post a photo or 2. I think it the same on most sites, whatever sort and however friendly, its hard being a newbie when everyone else seems to know what there doing!
Click to expand...

I'm feeling a bit like CT here when you say you've been reluctant to post your images. It's a common thing for people to look at other folks work and think "Wow" when in reality their own stuff's every bit as good :) Get your shots out :D
 
Witch said:
I can sympathise with any poster on here who says they feel reluctant to post because they're afraid they won;t get any response, and I can also sympathise with anyone who feels that if your "face doesn't fit" you won't get many views, or indeed responses. One person can post a shot which will get 100+ views in a day, and responses into double figures. Another shot posted at the same time will end the day with 30-50 views, and maybe one or two responses......
Click to expand...

You need to try motorsports, we're the most unloved section of the forums :lol:
 
Witch said:
I can sympathise with any poster on here who says they feel reluctant to post because they're afraid they won;t get any response, and I can also sympathise with anyone who feels that if your "face doesn't fit" you won't get many views, or indeed responses. One person can post a shot which will get 100+ views in a day, and responses into double figures. Another shot posted at the same time will end the day with 30-50 views, and maybe one or two responses......

Earlier on I spotted a thread somewhere down towards the bottom of the page on general sharing. It had been posted up mid-evening yesterday, yet had only one response and 30 views. Cross to Animals and Nature and there is a post which went up mid-afternoon today, and yet already had 13 responses and 130+ views! Both threads had titles which basically described their subjects, but weren't designed as a hook to draw people in, IMO. However, one was from a new-ish member posting their first shot, the other was from someone who might be percived by some as being part of an "in crowd". What makes the difference?

It's definately disheartening when you take a shot - perhaps even with TP sharing in mind, process it, upload it to webspace and then link it onto here, and then, next time you look a few hours on, very few responses and often very few views. Personally if people look at something I've posted and think "Ooh - that's nice" - then I would be delighted that they took the trouble to say so on the thread. If someone wanted to give more detailed feedback, then fine also. I usually end my sharing posts with "All comments welcome" which I hope sums this feeling up reasonably well. As for the idea that to criticise you have to be rude or brutal - for goodness sake - have you lot never heard of being tactful?!
Click to expand...

Let's grasp this nettle Robyn - I don't see that being anyone but myself? Part of the 'In Crowd'? Well I'm staff, but I don't think that's what you're implying?

So are you suggesting that my threads get a response which the images don't merit. :shrug:

You ask "What's the difference?" Check out our respective post counts Robyn. The vast majority of those posts are tutorials, answering technical queries, and giving genuine help and practical advice to people wherever I can. I'm not complaining, I actually enjoy seeing peoples work progress, and if you cast your mind back you've had plenty of help from me in the past in your own early days.

As I've said many times on this board, you get out of it what you put into it, something a lot of people seem to have trouble grasping. I honestly don't know whether people respond to my posts because they like my stuff or because they appreciate the time I give to this board, I'd like to think it's the former - but I suspect that there's an element of the latter too.

I'm gob smacked quite honestly that you had the neck to post this Robyn! Did you contribute to that other post with no comments?
 
Not wanting to join in on the debate as such, but here is how I feel I repay those who reply to me. Every time I post a set or an image, I will try and reply to all "unanswered posts" with some proper feedback. Also, if i'm active on the forum (when I have the time), I will try and look at images which are close to the top of the pile and reply.

I would not be remotely happy posting images, and not offering feedback to others on their images, give and take I think is hugely important to a forum like this.

Gary.
 
I must admit that there have been occasions on here and other forums where my posts have seemed ignored or given minimum attention, the fact of the matter is sometimes pictures dont evoke the necessary emotions in others to compell them to respond. A really bad photo may get more responses than an average one because it gives people more to talk about. Also, if someone writes a response that covers all the issues with a particular photo then there`s a good chance others wont feel the need to post anything. There are so many minute variations that effect a posts popularity that it becomes almost impossible to quantify why certain threads become centres of attention whilst others fall into obscurity. Maybe sometimes a thread does get more responses because of who it`s by but they`re often just spam or just personal questions between friends. I`m happy if i get 5 or more comments, its just nice to get feedback from fellow enthusiasts as none of my friends are interested in my hobby.
Rant over, time for bed.
 
I think its a fact, and not at all unexpected, that posters who are 'known' on the forum (and I don't mean 'in-crowd' we've had the clique discussions time and time again) and known for consistently posting good, interesting or controversial work will draw a crowd.

And perhaps that accounts for Robyn's comment. If a post draws a crowd it is much more likely to receive comments and snowball.

There are names of posters here known for their work be it macro, landscape, animals and nature, architecture or abstract (I'm not a big motorsports fan :D) that will alway cause me to pop in an peek and sometimes (not always) to comment!

I'm sure I'm not alone in this - but the day isn't long enough to view every post and hence I guess we get an imbalance! I do try to pick out the unanswereds as I've been there myself many a time :D

And this thread has made a difference to me - I now tend to ensure that I add a little more than 'nice shot' at least explaining why I like an image (or why I don't - but thats a little tougher sometimes :D)
 
Dark Star said:
And perhaps that accounts for Robyn's comment. If a post draws a crowd it is much more likely to receive comments and snowball.

There are names of posters here known for their work be it macro, landscape, animals and nature, architecture or abstract (I'm not a big motorsports fan :D) that will alway cause me to pop in an peek and sometimes (not always) to comment!
Click to expand...

And I am willing to bet another contributing factor, if not the main one, will be the subject matter of the images concerned ... :shrug:

We'll have our likes and dislikes, favourites and not-so-favourites and I would hazard a guess that more members will view and/or comment on, say, nature stuff than transport and such like ... :thinking:


But please let's keep our perspective on this and not, yet again, let a thread like this start getting in the way of TP being a great and fun forum where one can sensibly speak one's mind without fear of falling foul of hurting another's feelings along the way ... :shrug:


If we all make the effort to comment, sensibly, on a few posts each time we visit, especially those with zero or no feedback, we will go some long way to appeasing most of the people at least some of the time ... :suspect:


Stay cool people ... ;)




:p
 
With regards to what Witch says about the in-crowd....
The difference is this..

If you take very good pics of a very popular subject, you're going to get more comments and views than another 'general' shot, however accurate both descriptions are.
PLUS
As CT says, he is on the forums alot. Therefore his name is known to pretty much most of the members. He is known for his good bird pics, that creates a self fulfilling prophecy where people will see his name against a thread and want to see another good pic.
Take my 365 thread as an example. It's the thread with the highest views on the forum 20,000 views last time I looked. Why?
Is it because I have huge photographic talent? Nope. Is it because I am incredibly gorgeous and people can't stop looking at me? Maybe :D
Real reason? Because I'm what I tend to describe as 'all over the forums'. I'm on the forums from 8am to midnight every day, usually longer, I have many forum members on MSN too. So my name is well known amongst the members.
 
I agree with Witch in that indeed, certain posters do get more views and comments than other poeple based purely on who that person is.
My views on the reasons for that are these ...

Firstly, as already covered, the forum is HUGE now & we have people coming & going at quite a pace, therefore its the die-hards amongst us that are what keep going the sense of community we have here.

On a personal level, I would say that yes, there are certain names on the forum, that while I wouldnt say I look out for them, I do always drop by their threads if I see them.
My reasons for this vary, whether it be because theyve been around for a while and I feel 'I know them' so Im interested in what theyve been up to.
Because Ive been watching their growth from the sidelines.
Or purely because their pictures are so outstanding, and I Just merely want to enjoy viewing a damn good photograph ... which at the end of the day is a standard we all hope to reach.

In recent weeks I too have become guilty of putting 'nice shot'. I wont ever put that if I dont believe it ... EVER!
Ive said it recently without backing up why I think so, either because I genuinely believe that a shot is 'nice' and worthy of a bump if its slipping away un-noticed.
Because I think its a nice shot but I havent got the time to elaborate.
Or because its a nice shot .... but everyone above me has already done the elaborating and I merely wish to add my my praise.

....and thats my penny in the community pot! :D
 
Even in the short time I’ve been here I have come to recognise a few regular posters and I will have a fair expectation of their work even before I open the thread to see their shots. Obviously the longer I’m on here that list of people will grow.

Personally I am more likely to look at and comment, in depth, on someone’s work with whom I am not so familiar or who is a new member.

Like some I too was hesitant when I joined to post my shots. It’s not that I do not want C&C on my shots, in fact I invite it, and some of them have benefited from the comments/advice that I have received.

I can understand some people’s reluctance to get involved when they view the quality of some of the shots featured here and the very nice, very expensive, photographic equipment that some own. You can take a thought provoking shot with a mobile phone and a completely uninteresting shot on a D3. So, for me, the ‘length of their lens’ should not deter people, it may restrict what type of shots you can take but certainly does not restrict the ability to take good shots!

Also, ‘in depth critique’ requires more than a passing knowledge of photo taking. Comments relating to ‘white balance’, ‘DOF’, etc, maybe beyond someone starting out with a point and shoot compact. This is also relevant for ‘post processing’ comments where nearly everyone assumes that all on here have Photoshop, (maybe a somewhat generic statement but makes my point).

For me personally I have not come across any ‘elitism’ on the forums and this has made me more relaxed concerning posting some of my work. Perversely, I am more concerned when I have commented on someone’s work than comments that I may receive on mine.

A new member starting out, and who is interested in improving, is more in need constructive basic critique and yet I have notice, that on occasions, they will receive less response than some of the forum regulars. I suppose on an online forum ‘community’ whereby over time people get to know people this is perfectly understandable but I believe for the ‘community’ to grow new/inexperienced members need to be included from day one.

My view is that if I post shots expecting C&C then in return I should reciprocate that feedback that I wish from others.
 
I haven't been here long, but feel that I have a good eye for the appreciation of pictures, as well as the ability to convey what I feel is good or bad about a picture effectively.

I critique people's pictures as I would like to see my own critiqued, although at first I was a little apprehensive that I would be flamed as a newbie by the members of longer standing, but that's yet to happen.

I tend to focus on people who are just starting up. When I'm looking to be entertained I might just pay more attention to the CTs and Marcels of the TP world, but if I'm in an alturistic mood and feel like giving something back, then I'll be on the look out for the 'first submission' style threads.

And I guess that I'm hoping that by critiquing other people's pictures effectively, I'll get more than a 'nice shot' or 'that's cute' if they ever get round to returning the favour.
 
I must admit, i have been a culprit for 'nice shot' type comments, because genuinly, it was a nice shot or deserved a bravo :)
Also, i feel i do not have enough experience sometimes to be able to tell them what i think is wrong with it, as something wrong to me is nothing to someone else.
Sometimes though, i feel confident enough to give my opinion on someones photo, more so now since i ahve been a member here.
 
I try to leave an opinion on most threads that I visit in the PC & S. Some of the images in there are that good that all I can say sometimes is "Great shot" or similar.....:shrug:
 
CT said:
Let's grasp this nettle Robyn - I don't see that being anyone but myself? Part of the 'In Crowd'? Well I'm staff, but I don't think that's what you're implying?
Click to expand...

I can to a certain extent see where Witch is coming from but I also feel ( as I have said before)
that the forum is becoming a victim of its own success.
One reason being, I feel, With so many new members over the last several months
it does seem that little groups are forming probabley as members migrate from other forums and know " each other"
from said forums do tend maybe to stick with "who they know"
Thats not a critisism as such BTW I am just commenting on human nature per se'
And has been said some TP sections are more popular than others

CT said:
I honestly don't know whether people respond to my posts because they like my stuff or because they appreciate the time I give to this board, I'd like to think it's the former - but I suspect that there's an element of the latter too.
Click to expand...

I suspect that perhaps its a little of both but then you do turn out some damned fine bird pictures CT!
And give very sound information freely to which I for one am most greatful for :thumbs:
BTW if you ever posted anything I thought was crap I would tell you :D
 
Kinda tricky to say its crap at post #10, when the previous 9 have been "nice shot".
Puts me off saying anything really, partly because I dont poop parties and partly because I don't know how to do virtually meaningless critique.
Critique is self descriptive after all.
I see the photo first, never the poster, and the poster never decides whether I comment or not.

Anybody who says its not cliquey here, must be mad....or in the clique, and even madder for caring who's cliquey and who isn't.

my koi just jumped out the damn pond:shrug:

Another thought - Is the anonymous critique section the right way round, is tpf "nice" enough for anonymous critiquers ?
 
joxby said:
Kinda tricky to say its crap at post #10, when the previous 9 have been "nice shot".
Click to expand...

That doen't bother me at all. If I think it I will say it but follow it with constructive advice

joxby said:
I see the photo first, never the poster, and the poster never decides whether I comment or not.
Click to expand...

Me too and that's how it should be :thumbs:


joxby said:
Anybody who says its not cliquey here, must be mad....or in the clique, and even madder for caring who's cliquey and who isn't.
Click to expand...
Valid point


joxby said:
my koi just jumped out the damn pond:shrug:
Click to expand...

Have you tried netting the pond it also helps to keep the herons at bay :D
 
joxby said:
Kinda tricky to say its crap at post #10, when the previous 9 have been "nice shot".
Puts me off saying anything really, partly because I dont poop parties and partly because I don't know how to do virtually meaningless critique.
Click to expand...

I feel that way too. Its quite hard because you do feel that theres something you need to say about the shot but at the same time you only feel like people will jump on your back for saying so.

Anybody who says its not cliquey here, must be mad....or in the clique, and even madder for caring who's cliquey and who isn't.
Click to expand...

clique (klēk, klĭk) pronunciation
n.

A small exclusive group of friends or associates.
Click to expand...

There's no exclusive groups on TP outside the mods and thats perfectly understandable. There are people who are friends but theres nothing preventing anyone from making friends here. In that regard there are no exclusive groups.
 
Marcel said:
Take my 365 thread as an example. It's the thread with the highest views on the forum 20,000 views last time I looked.
Click to expand...


OMG ... :eek: ... you said you wouldn't tell ... :suspect:



I suppose you now want the money back for the 15,000 or so you asked me to do ... :naughty:






:p
 
Venomator said:



OMG ... :eek: ... you said you wouldn't tell ... :suspect:

I suppose you now want the money back for the 15,000 or so you asked me to do ... :naughty:


:p
Click to expand...



I obviously didnt pay you enough as my 365 thread (started a few days before Marcel's!!!) has way less views :(
 
I find you get this with all forums If I want more detailed critque I just use a flickr critque group where the rules are you HAVE to give some in-depth info on why you like/dislike a photo I find this group the best for this.

http://www.flickr.com/groups/life-thru-a-lenz/
 
Or you could just use the Indepth-Critique forum we have here ;)

Jimmy, thats a perfect example. I think I've only got the extra view because of who I am, nothing more. Thats proof that the extra views are nothing to do with content, and its certainly isnt because of a a clique....because that would A: be one bloody big clique :p, and B: None of my RL friends regularly reply :p
 
CT said:
Let's grasp this nettle Robyn - I don't see that being anyone but myself? Part of the 'In Crowd'? Well I'm staff, but I don't think that's what you're implying?

So are you suggesting that my threads get a response which the images don't merit. :shrug:

You ask "What's the difference?" Check out our respective post counts Robyn. The vast majority of those posts are tutorials, answering technical queries, and giving genuine help and practical advice to people wherever I can. I'm not complaining, I actually enjoy seeing peoples work progress, and if you cast your mind back you've had plenty of help from me in the past in your own early days.

As I've said many times on this board, you get out of it what you put into it, something a lot of people seem to have trouble grasping. I honestly don't know whether people respond to my posts because they like my stuff or because they appreciate the time I give to this board, I'd like to think it's the former - but I suspect that there's an element of the latter too.

I'm gob smacked quite honestly that you had the neck to post this Robyn! Did you contribute to that other post with no comments?
Click to expand...

Not quite certain what I've said to deserve this earbashing. I can't work out whether you've developed a sudden case of arrogance and automatically assume I was talking about you, or whether you have become alarmingly paranoid.......

For what it's worth, it wasn't even your thread I was talking about, so you may as well stash your high horse back in its stable for a while. I'm not going to name the member whose post it was, as that would be unfair in the light of my next comment. Your posts, IMO, firmly deserve the number of views and comments they get. You post extremely high quality bird images which are quite simply a delight to look at. The fact that you;re staff is irrelevant. If you feel you are part of some "in crowd" then that's up to you, I neither implied, nor said it.

To take your remaining points one at a time....

I haven't a clue without looking what our respective post counts are, and frankly I'm also not in the least bit interested. I try to contribute as and when my time restraints allow, however, being out of the house for in excess of 12 hours most days, and then having a house and family to consider, perhaps I don't contribute as much as some people. If that's not acceptable then I'm sorry, but other priorities come ahead, in my life, of internet forums, I'm afraid! I simply don't know enough to post tutorials or, in many cases offer advice to people. If I know what I'm talking about then I might offer a suggestion, if not, then I tend to shut the hell up to avoid confusing the situation. The last thing anyone needs is loads of waffle on a thread from people talking out of their backsides when all they've asked is a simple question. Again, if this makes my contributions to the forum less worthwhile, then I would have to apologise. I also appreciate that I have indeed been on the end of help and advice from you CT - and very grateful for it I was too - perhaps I have given a different impression and if so, then that would be another apology - I certainly didn't intend to appear ungrateful or not say thank you when it was due.

Finally - I had "the neck" to post my comment because I was under the impression that the thread was about being honest about the way you saw things on the boards. I can't be responsible for others jumping to entirely incorrect conclusions and launching unwarranted attacks off the back of their misapprehensions. I'm not going to go into whether I did or did not comment on the thread concerned as that may go some way towards identifying the one I was talking about - as I said, I don;t feel that would be fair, or relevant.
 
dod said:
You need to try motorsports, we're the most unloved section of the forums :lol:
Click to expand...

You think I've not noticed this?!! :lol:

EdinburghGary said:
Not wanting to join in on the debate as such, but here is how I feel I repay those who reply to me. Every time I post a set or an image, I will try and reply to all "unanswered posts" with some proper feedback. Also, if i'm active on the forum (when I have the time), I will try and look at images which are close to the top of the pile and reply.

I would not be remotely happy posting images, and not offering feedback to others on their images, give and take I think is hugely important to a forum like this.

Gary.
Click to expand...


My thoughts - and indeed my method of choosing threads to coment on, more often than not - exactly. :thumbs:


* * * * * *

Finally, to all those who seem to have jumped to the conclusion that I was in fact saying that there was an "in crowd" - go back and read my comment again please. It was posted after reading comments from others earlier in this thread remember. ;)
 
My entirely unwarranted 'attack' was actually more of a defence. It would be much easier Robyn to accept your explanation, were it not for the fact that there wasn't another post on the board at that time which fitted the criteria given by yourself in your first post.

However, nothing will be served by dragging this out, I'm into photography - politics I can do without. ;)
 
CT said:
My entirely unwarranted 'attack' was actually more of a defence. It would be much easier Robyn to accept your explanation, were it not for the fact that there wasn't another post on the board at that time which fitted the criteria given by yourself in your first post.

However, nothing will served by dragging this out, I'm into photography - politics I can do without. ;)
Click to expand...

Sorry CT - please see your PM's. I have sent you the link of the post to which I was actually referring. I don't like being earbashed for no good reason, I like even less the suggestion that I'm a liar as well.

Apologies if others see this as "dragging anything out" but I'm rather upset by this, and becoming more so as it runs along. I posted a response to a thread in good faith, without targetting any one member, as I felt it would be unfair to do so. However, it seems that in doing so, I have become a target!

For the first time ever tonight I have found myself not responding to posts elsewhere on the boards because I'm unsure how those responses might be taken. Before anyone takes a pop for that, it's not a call for sympathy - I think most of you are aware that's not my style - it's just saying it as it is.
 
As a result of a PM from Robyn, I have to accept that I jumped to a wrong conclusion and it was not in fact my thread she was referring to. I have apologised to her unreservedly via PM and I now do so publicly.
 
grupo_amistad.gif
 
haggisuk said:
:thinking: Mmmm

this thread is in danger of going nuclear.:exit:
Click to expand...

Not on my account it isn't. Not my way of dealoing with things, sorry to disappoint eh!! ;)

King_Boru said:
Can I be in the middle?
Click to expand...

I would call you a dirty old man, but......oh well, "You dirty young man!" :lol:

CT said:
As a result of a PM from Robyn, I have to accept that I jumped to a wrong conclusion and it was not in fact my thread she was referring to. I have apologised to her unreservedly via PM and I now do so publicly.
Click to expand...

Indeed, and that apology has been accepted wholeheartedly. As I also told CT in that same PM, I didn't even consider using his post as an example, which made his reaction all the more...well....surprising!! No hard feelings, and back to business as normal, I would hope! :)
 
Witch said:
Not on my account it isn't. Not my way of dealoing with things, sorry to disappoint eh!! ;)
Click to expand...

Not what I would like to see, we like photography, and it would be great if we can all stay friendly to each other.

I hate arguing and fighting, unless there is good reason. :naughty:
 
haggisuk said:
Not what I would like to see, we like photography, and it would be great if we call stay friendly to each other.

I hate arguing and fighting, unless there is good reason. :naughty:
Click to expand...


Oh well, in that case......My dad's bigger than your Dad!!! :razz:

:boxer:


:D
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top