crit'in others work *mini rant*

Steep said:
Ven - was that really neccessary?

Trev -



That comment has no basis in fact. A click of the Unanswered posts link up there ^ shows a total of 20 (yes just 20) unanswered threads, only 5 of which are more than 4 days old. When you think how many threads are made each day that is a fantastic example of why these forums are so great.
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never knew about that button, mine only shows 2:D
 
A good debate is this.

As somebody who is just over a year into photography, I think even just getting a "nice shot" or "nice set" is encouraging to the person. I personaly would continue with togging, even if I did not get any comments. But other people might think, they are not good enough and might give up this fantastic hobby before they get themselves into their stride.
You have to be able to put aside personal feelings to be able to evaluate criticism, that is a trait each person has to develop, some find it easier than others.

In todays highly inflated world, that is my fivers worth:)
 
The trouble for me is people quite often get really aggressive if you criticise a picture, I've had people go off the deep end asking to see proof that I can take a better picture etc. which for me misses the point a good critic doesn't need to be a good artist you just need to understand what makes a good shot. Some forums are made up of people who recieve criticism in a much more receptive manor unfortunately a lot here don't and just think that there shots are beyond reproach and want a sting of 'Great Shot' type responses.

So to make my point I don't tend to be entirely honest with feedback to avoid nasty incidents I will also quite often use the nice shot comment and then offer a couple of pointers that I think would improve the shot.

PS the reason not many of my images are on the internet is because I'm really harsh on my own stuff and don't like most of it enough to share it!
 
Nice thread folks :)

Seriously though, what we forget is that we don't actually know the person (a lot of the time) who's work we are critiquing. Are they like some of the brave souls above who say "Give it me on the chin, I can take it, it will make me better!" or are they going to hurl the camera in a cupboard and give up because they feel they have no understanding never mind technical ability?

You really do not know which reaction you are likely to provoke hence a lot of people will default to "Nice shot" It's a very inoffensive comment.

As part of the Open Uni course we were taught how to critique other's work and just as importantly, how to take it too.

CT, you made a very interesting point for me. You assess an image in terms of technical and compositional requirements first and foremost. I don't. I first recognise that it has touched something in me before I even look at the technical and compositional elements. In other words I then try to work out WHY it works so well for me. Some images just "speak" to me and sometimes I don't know why. I think that photography and art have the unique ability to do just that and sometimes it transcends any kind of "rules" that we, as photographers ourselves, tend to apply.
 
I'm with Ven. I completely get his point. We *ALL* do it. Its not something we can fix with a single thread as there's been loads of these threads on every forum ever.
 
Time is the issue here me thinks.

With so many postings too.


To make a true analytical critique you would have to study the image a few times, taking in what you do like, what you dont like and then analyzing why you do or dont like.


A decision could be made quickly about any image.

This is how it is done in the L&CPU

Judges get about 5 seconds to decide a score out of 5 for a picture. For me this seems wrong as you do need time to score a print if you have to, otherwise the judges preferences kick in and he/she decides what they like and score accordingly.


I am guilty of 'yes i like it' attitude. But for us to be true critiques would we not need some skill in the field we are critiquing? If so what skills and deemed acceptable by whom? For instance could a wildlife photographer critique a portrait etc etc ?

The answer is yes based on detail of picture and 'personal' tastes of said subject. As for fine critiquing then that is where the difficulty lies across the board so to speak.

As for a wider based critique then I am for it as it would help me look at the picture from someone elses perspective - which is good and what has aided me in my photography since my beggining.

Having read this I shall attempt to be more forthcoming in my explanations. Though I have shyed away from images i dont like it is too easy to offend in textual critiquing. But I should try. - apologies in advance :-)
 
As Pete says, this has come up many times already, it's why we have a specific forum for members wanting more critique of their images and less general comment.
 
petemc said:
I'm with Ven. I completely get his point. We *ALL* do it. Its not something we can fix with a single thread as there's been loads of these threads on every forum ever.
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:thumbs: ... Perhaps a little more succinctly put by you though Pete ... :D






:p
 
Venomator. ouch living up to your name lol

i think nice shot is better than 300 views with no comments. I prefer a bit a critique as i honestly have trouble doing it to own photos. I can look at other people photos tell them how & why it works good & bad, i cant do it for my own. I rely on some part for comments from you guys.

F-Stop & AlanoDale never stopped me, in terms of use of camera not much more experience :D I've commented on pics from Blinkez, Petemc, Marcel, CT and more these guys take fantasics photos but they listened to a pure nOOb like me. They also gave 'critique' constructive critism on pics that work & dont work. If i'm improving its basically listening to these guys looking at thier photos etc. If you put comment they will piont you in right direction:lol:
 
howler said:
I feel i do not know enough to offer a factual critique but i do say if i like the shot....i myself in the the very early stages of learning, hope in time i can offer more, but just not confident enough in my own ability yet to really comment on others, please be patient with us :)
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How much do you need to know to say something like, it's a nice, i really like the way the colours stand out. Or i like the way the flower catches the light.

Or even i like the idea but it looks a little tight on the right edge, and the colours are a bit flat. maybe try boosting the contrast or saturation.

Ill be honest im much less likely to post a comment if there are already loads of replies. Unless i have something new to say.

The other thing is to ask for the help you want, for example i recently posted a set of images taken at seven sisters park. They weren't brilliant and the rubbish weather didn't help. But i asked for help on how to improve the processing which people posted and as a result my work flow and processing has changed for the better.

Im not picking on u Howler a lot of people say the same thing. This forum has improved my photography no end and im still learning loads, just because you couldn't take the shot your self doesn't mean you cant pass comment on it.
 
There is a separate section in the forum for in depth critique, so surely if thats what your after then thats the place to post your shot(s).

I know as a new togger im pleased with all comments no matter what, if they are helpful criticism, a simple "nice shot" or pointing out exactly what they like/dislike. Its all helpful towards me and do not think people should be told not to do that?! The way people have been on this forum for the short time i have been posting has been great, and many others have said this too and even made threads thanking the people/site. Cnt see the problem myself. All imo of course
 
I think the nsns comments are VERY important to new or underconfident togs. If it's a choice between these and no feedback, these are at least going to keep them snapping away.

What I DO have a problem with is the really good togs, who have been doing it for many years, been on these boards for many years etc who post extremely good images nearly every time getting "nsns" comments! And this, in my opinion, is what has led to TP being called 'clique'. People are more likely to click on a thread by one of the pros whose names they recognise, more likely to like the shots and more likely to comment.

But when they comment, they are usually judging the 'pro's shots by the same standard as all the others, which is not how it should be. If a newbie posts a shot of this level they need support, encouragement - basically lots of nsns posts with a few bits of crit thrown in to keep things real. But a 'pro' might take this level of shot every day and what he/she needs is to improve - with that standard of photography he should be able to take all the crit people throw at him so he needs his shots picked apart ruthlessly, but with plenty of compliments on how good they already are just to be nice :D

Also (not much more I promise), when a 'pro' posts a shot of a lot lower standard than usual it needs ruthless critique, not praise just because it's him/her posting it.

That's what I think, anywho :help:
 
Took a while to read this thread!

I too like many others, it seems, am guilt of the 'nice shot' comments, but I try and add something more to it - such as 'maybe increading the constrast might help make it stand out more...' or something along those lines. I am no expert but I have learnt a few things when it comes to processing and feel I can often comment on that easier than I can on the photograph itself.

As for how I decide how to crit a shot (if at all) I tend to go on first impressions. I opena thread...if it is something that interests me or catches my eye I will look at it some more, and decide if I would have done anything different myself. I dont look at it technically to start with I purely go on if it makes me go 'oooo thats good' - so I guess simply I could just reply with that (and I probably have) but if there is something I would maybe have done differently then I would generally say so. Before that though I have a look and see who posted it, if it is someone with a prettly low post count (say under 100) then I will try and make the comments more jolly...so that is doesnt seem like I am 'ripping it' - if it is a name I know I will generally be more 'honest' and pick out any minor bits too.

But overall I only tend to comment on photos that capture my interest in the first place. I would love to be able to comment on every photo posted, but there just isnt the time...and I am probably one of the people on here the most (it is generally open in the background while I am working).

On the other hand, if a photo is in one of the critique sections then I will generally try and leave an honest critique of what I like and what I would do different....no matter what the shot is. I really like the anonymous crit section as I know my comments are normally based on the original poster.

(hands are starting to ache now!)

Interesting thread though :) and it is interesting that some people dont feel they have enough expertise to comment, which is think is entirely fair....and I think getting 'nice shot' from someone reletively new to photography is great :) and then again I do like getting similar comments from people who's photography I respect....so I guess it is just a matter of opinion on what is a good response to your photo. I always like some constructive feedback, but as I have said before I always find I have to be carefull with how I respond to it, so as not to come accross as arrogant in my reply - I have often looked a photo for a long time before I post and any flaws etc I have already spotted...and generally accepted - yet a reply stating that can sometimes be miss-read as arrogance, or so it would seem. And I think that happens to a few other people too.

Ok I have to stop typing as I have written so much now I cant be arsed to read what I have put so it proably makes no sense what so ever :p

Conclusion: I like any comments on my photos - wether it is just a 'nice photo' or a propper good crit or anything in between. I worked out a while ago that on here you dont get many comments for just 'ok' photos - you get helpfull comments on 'bad' shots and some 'wows' and 'nices' on 'great' shots. I still think this place is 100x more helpfull than places like Flickr where a comment generally is just that.

Viva La Talkphotography :) (and stupidly long posts)
 
Ewan said:
What I DO have a problem with is the really good togs, who have been doing it for many years, been on these boards for many years etc who post extremely good images nearly every time getting "nsns" comments! And this, in my opinion, is what has led to TP being called 'clique'. People are more likely to click on a thread by one of the pros whose names they recognise, more likely to like the shots and more likely to comment.

But when they comment, they are usually judging the 'pro's shots by the same standard as all the others, which is not how it should be. If a newbie posts a shot of this level they need support, encouragement - basically lots of nsns posts with a few bits of crit thrown in to keep things real. But a 'pro' might take this level of shot every day and what he/she needs is to improve - with that standard of photography he should be able to take all the crit people throw at him so he needs his shots picked apart ruthlessly, but with plenty of compliments on how good they already are just to be nice :D

Also (not much more I promise), when a 'pro' posts a shot of a lot lower standard than usual it needs ruthless critique, not praise just because it's him/her posting it.
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Yup, thats just how it works. The same comments have been made by many others on many forums. Like this for example. Great photographers posting on the net. This too.
 
I'd just like to say :

General Photo Sharing
A forum to post and share your photographs for general thoughts and comments.

and

InDepth Critique
To recieve in-depth analysis and more detailed critique for your images.
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You want proper critique? Post in the right forum ;)
 
Love the way these topics come around every so often :D

For my own part I don't much mind if I get a 'nice/poor image' or a more detailed critique.

I try to make an effort to say why I like an image (or why it doesn't work for me) although I'm sure I am also guilty of 'nice shot I like it' now and then.

And I guess it'll stay that way :D
 
Ewan said:
I think the nsns comments are VERY important to new or underconfident togs. If it's a choice between these and no feedback, these are at least going to keep them snapping away.

What I DO have a problem with is the really good togs, who have been doing it for many years, been on these boards for many years etc who post extremely good images nearly every time getting "nsns" comments! And this, in my opinion, is what has led to TP being called 'clique'. People are more likely to click on a thread by one of the pros whose names they recognise, more likely to like the shots and more likely to comment.

But when they comment, they are usually judging the 'pro's shots by the same standard as all the others, which is not how it should be. If a newbie posts a shot of this level they need support, encouragement - basically lots of nsns posts with a few bits of crit thrown in to keep things real. But a 'pro' might take this level of shot every day and what he/she needs is to improve - with that standard of photography he should be able to take all the crit people throw at him so he needs his shots picked apart ruthlessly, but with plenty of compliments on how good they already are just to be nice :D

Also (not much more I promise), when a 'pro' posts a shot of a lot lower standard than usual it needs ruthless critique, not praise just because it's him/her posting it.

That's what I think, anywho :help:
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Er there is a slight flaw in this theory, number of posts does not always relate to the experience of the photographer. Maybe we need a bit on the profile bar to the side- stating how much photography experience you have or your level of knowledge. I don't know something like beginner, experienced beginner, experienced, or pro photographer. Just an idea.

I say this cos i have a post count over a 1000 yet still am only really getting to grips with my camera and leaning techniques.

Also i think that those that said about the indepth critque forum have a point. If you want indept critque then post in there. If you wan to share a photo then share it on the relevant forum. If you have a photo you want help with then post it and write, where did i go wrong? how can i improve it?
 
Generally I try to encourage with a nice shot comment and if time allows a follow up suggestion on how to improve the said shot. People aren't stupid and surely know the level they're at as we are all climbing the ladder and hard critique to someone trying to improve isn't always constructive and can prevent them posting again. A gentle well done, now try this or maybe try another angle is, I think. It is easy to get into the habit of nice shot .... nice shot, as most here have falling into that now and again but hey we're only human :lol: I find people that have been on a while expect to get a little critique now and again but there is a forum for specifically that.
 
Dark Star said:
Love the way these topics come around every so often :D

For my own part I don't much mind if I get a 'nice/poor image' or a more detailed critique.

I try to make an effort to say why I like an image (or why it doesn't work for me) although I'm sure I am also guilty of 'nice shot I like it' now and then.

And I guess it'll stay that way :D
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Been reading this thread for a while now and that just about sums up exactly my feelings.
Sometimes you have the energy and enthusiasm to write a long critique, sometimes not.

Interesting read and won't be the last time I read a similar voew on here either.
 
As has already been said this type of thread comes around from time to time
The forum seems to be a victim of its own success the more "posters" the more images to critique.
I have seen a more than a few over the time that I have been here, When asked for critique, when slightly negitive never scathing critique, has been received the OP has pulled the image. That and a
lack of response from an OP to the critique received
makes me (and others I am sure) a lot less likely to "bother" in the future. Save for perhaps " nice image" if its nice.
He is the other side of your thread

http://www.talkphotography.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=39351&highlight=turning+GOS
 
Fair point Cobra - there are plenty of members who either never respond to or even acknowledge critique given to their images, let alone make the effort to critique or comment on the images of others. It seems good manners don't always apply on the internet. ;)
 
It's a difficult one, I usually post a huge in-depth crit or post nothing at all unless the image is stunning, in which case I will say so.

If I feel I can help, then I'll put the effort in to suggest things. If not then it either means the shot is mediocre/just doesn't appeal to me or it's brilliant and I'll say so.

Panzer
 
Personally I think *Great Images!*, *Lovely set!* and *WOW, Just great!* is a ******s mirage. And really not worth the effort the poster (didn't) put into posting them.
 
As a complete beginner I welcome any comments at all on the few that I have uploaded. If all I got were views then I'd be somewhat deflated. Having said that, I lurk a lot and drool at some of the work on here but have only commented on one or two myself as I am no-way qualified to say anything other than "nice". Not sure I should anymore for fear of being "annoying" or making an idiot of myself....:(
 
benneh said:
Personally I think *Great Images!*, *Lovely set!* and *WOW, Just great!* is a t0ssers mirage. And really not worth the effort the poster (didn't) put into posting them.
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:thinking:


Don't know if I would agree ... BUT I think it's just a mirage anyway ... :suspect:





:p
 
Venomator said:
:thinking:


Don't know if I would agree ... BUT I think it's just a mirage anyway ... :suspect:





:p
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Hehe, I do honestly think that though. Justs seems terrible that people have no more imagination than to just say "Nice shot" hundreds of times over their forum membership. If a shot's great (or if you really like something) then that's fantastic, but at least give a little reason why you like it so much (so that the author has an idea of what they're doing right etc). All in my opinion ofc.
 
I would have imagined that if people wanted more constructive critique of their work, then they would either point that out in their initial post, or post in the indepth section of the website!
 
benneh said:
Hehe, I do honestly think that though. Justs seems terrible that people have no more imagination than to just say "Nice shot" hundreds of times over their forum membership. If a shot's great (or if you really like something) then that's fantastic, but at least give a little reason why you like it so much (so that the author has an idea of what they're doing right etc). All in my opinion ofc.
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I don't wish to repeat my earlier diatribe ... :D ... BUT ...



Benneh said:
I think they're really lovely.
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'Nuff said ... :shrug:






:p
 
Maybe we should all just say nice shot and then mark out of 20 :lol: :p

I give this reply 18/20 ;)
 
Venomator said:


I don't wish to repeat my earlier diatribe ... :D ... BUT ...






'Nuff said ... :shrug:






:p
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That post was made because someone linked to the thread in IRC and I was wound up by every reply being "nice shot!", the post was made in sarcasm (and 4-5 TP irc members can back me up there lol).
 
benneh said:
That post was made because someone linked to the thread in IRC and I was wound up by every reply being "nice shot!", the post was made in sarcasm (and 4-5 TP irc members can back me up there lol).
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Hmmm ... might have known you'd try and wriggle out of it ... :suspect:

Same apply here then ... :shrug:

Benneh said:
Not normally my thing at all, but this is a really nice shot. Bravo .
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:lol:




:p
 
Venomator said:


Hmmm ... might have known you'd try and wriggle out of it ... :suspect:

Same apply here then ... :shrug:




:lol:.






:p
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Again I'd already discussed that photo with scraggs in IRC :lol:. You're not going to get me ;P. There's another one too, one of petes, which again had been discussed off the boards :woot::lol:.
 
benneh said:
Again I'd already discussed that photo with scraggs in IRC :lol:. You're not going to get me ;P. There's another one too, one of petes, which again had been discussed off the boards :woot::lol:.
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Yeah cos discussing photos off the the boards really helps. Sharing your thoughts about photos doesn't just help the OP improve but all of us!!!

Maybe you should stop trying to look all smug and share some of your thoughts with all of us.
 
Toothie said:
Yeah cos discussing photos off the the boards really helps. Sharing your thoughts about photos doesn't just help the OP improve but all of us!!!

Maybe you should stop trying to look all smug and share some of your thoughts with all of us.
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Haha smug?. Not quite sure how that works. We have 3 questionable replies out of 320.. If you care to look my thoughts are most definitely shared :), so back down off the soap box.

Actually, a quick edit. The reason I prefer to discuss photos in IRC is because you always get a decent response, and you can actually discuss (in conversation) what you like, what you might have done better etc, as well has having a general chat. I sound a bit catty in this reply which isn't really how it was intended to come across. But you're post was a bit abrasive and imo unjustified.
 
Toothie said:
Yeah cos discussing photos off the the boards really helps. Sharing your thoughts about photos doesn't just help the OP improve but all of us!!!

Maybe you should stop trying to look all smug and share some of your thoughts with all of us.
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Er what? Personal attack! All hands on dick... i mean deck. You know we have an IRC channel were a few of us do chat about our work, posting links to our threads and such. Get off your high horse before it dies and you have to start flogging it :p
 
Well I tend to flick on and off depending on how much time I have, and if I do look (drool) at the pictures it tends to be ones where the title looks interesting to me! I don't comment much as I don't know enough to say anything on the technical or composition side, and if I like something I don't usually know why other than to me I see it as a nice picture!

Perhaps when I can get semi decent ones myself I may comment more but until then I'm afraid all I'm going to manage is nice picture!!
 
benneh said:
Haha smug?. Not quite sure how that works. We have 3 questionable replies out of 320.. If you care to look my thoughts are most definitely shared :), so back down off the soap box.

Actually, a quick edit. The reason I prefer to discuss photos in IRC is because you always get a decent response, and you can actually discuss (in conversation) what you like, what you might have done better etc, as well has having a general chat. I sound a bit catty in this reply which isn't really how it was intended to come across. But you're post was a bit abrasive and imo unjustified.
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petemc said:
Er what? Personal attack! All hands on dick... i mean deck. You know we have an IRC channel were a few of us do chat about our work, posting links to our threads and such. Get off your high horse before it dies and you have to start flogging it :p
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I apologise for being abrasive. It wasn't really my intention. I just thought you previous post was very much of the attitude 'look i'm better than everybody else'. That's how you came across to me.

Yes i can understand how live interactive chat about photos can be helpful to the OP, but i think you would agree doesn't help others.

Most people have posted nice shot at some time or another for whatever reason. Although this doesn't tell you much, you can then always ask why. As others have said its better than nothing.
 
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