Criticism constructive or otherwise

[chris malcolm]

…not possible when the poster has NO for edit, Matt.


To put it simply, Matt, the shots were great captures
but the level of shooting was not supported by the
proposed renditions.

My comment was based on observable inconsistent…

• WB
• DRL
• saturation etc

These, among others, are taking a bunch of cool ca-
tures to the level of SET that is coherent in terms of
luminance, chrominance, graphic elements and story
telling.

I'd like to thank you for those comments. I realised when reading them that I suffer badly from those problems too! My focus has up to now been too exclusively on each individual photograph. I've now become sophisticated enough that for three successive photographs of the same event I'll may even go so far as to use three quite different processing methods involving three quite different image editors. I'll end up with three successive photographs of the same event which look as though they were taken at the same place on three quite different days and times.

Why would I use three quite different editors? Because in one photograph I may be concentrating on faces, in another on the trees, and in a third on the somewhat shadily obscured details of the machinery they're standing beside. Each editor has a special magical virtue in one particular area which it does so easily and so well in ways which I've struggled and failed to duplicate with the other editors. Rather like using three quite different paint boxes because one has much the best blues and greens, another has the best reds and browns, while a third has a consistency of paint which permits the use of very fine brushes.

Do I need to polish my processing skills? Is there such a thing as one editor which will do all I want? Can I use my different editors and processes for their different virtues and then subject the results to some kind of consistifying process? Clearly I have a lot of experimenting and learning to do here.

Thanks, Kodiak! You have opened a door into an aspect of photography which I hadn't realised I had inadvertently closed!

 

[Kodiak Qc]

•


Chris, after having my heels chewed on by Chihuahuas so
often, this reply of yours is like balm to my bear heart.

I suffer badly from those problems too! My focus has up to now been too exclusively on each individual photograph.

A photograph is telling a story… or should. A set is a story
in several "chapters". What I think is that all these should
be linked by the use of the same level of language, interest
and style — to name a few — so that, at the end, it is a very
a pleasurable experience.

I'll may even go so far as to use three quite different processing methods involving three quite different image editors

I think this is not a good idea as every pixel editor has its
own colour engine and other particular ways to affect any
image upon saving the final rendition.

Is there such a thing as one editor which will do all I want?

I think so. I believe that you investigated some tools in given
editors but not in others. Very powerful editors can satisfy
all your needs insuring consistent renditions.

I do very little imagery but lots of tools are useful in my pho-
tography. I use a single RAW converter and opted for one
very cool pixel editor.

Can I use my different editors and processes for their different virtues and then subject the results to some kind of consistifying process?

That would increase enormously your workflow… considering
that that consistifying process would add its own effect on the
final rendition through its very colour engine and what not.

Thanks, Kodiak!

No, I thank you, Chris.

 

[BillN_33]

what an amusing thread this has become

 

[User.81858]

Think it all comes down to whether you want reasonably honest discussion of your photos or "wow like amazing awarded you a s*** load of gold spangly stars" type comments

Guilty as charged. When I make comments showing appreciation of superb photographs I have already learned why they are better than mine by studying them and understanding the difference. If people don't like how I post ...Tough

 

[Kodiak Qc]

what an amusing thread this has become

synonyms:
entertaining, funny, comical, humorous, light-hearted, jocular,
witty, mirthful, hilarious, chucklesome, ludicrous, laughable,
rollicking, facetious, droll, whimsical, novel, interesting, diverting,
engaging, beguiling, side-splitting, rib-tickling…

Which one is on your mind, Bill?

 

[redhed17]

synonyms:
entertaining, funny, comical, humorous, light-hearted, jocular,
witty, mirthful, hilarious, chucklesome, ludicrous, laughable,
rollicking, facetious, droll, whimsical, novel, interesting, diverting,
engaging, beguiling, side-splitting, rib-tickling…

Which one is on your mind, Bill?

Oh no, don't get the hump because someone has commented on the thread about commenting in other threads!

 

[Kodiak Qc]

don't get the hump

I really don't understand which one is meant,
so I ask, simply.

 

[BillN_33]

synonyms:
entertaining, funny, comical, humorous, light-hearted, jocular,
witty, mirthful, hilarious, chucklesome, ludicrous, laughable,
rollicking, facetious, droll, whimsical, novel, interesting, diverting,
engaging, beguiling, side-splitting, rib-tickling…

Which one is on your mind, Bill?

you choose


Man posts image in a Critique forum thinking that subject matter is important and that his images are good……… he’s proud of his work

It is then pointed out that he is technically inadequate ……. and hit with the usual WB, DLR, XYZ, ABC, abbreviations in a language only known on Mars ….telling him that his image is no good.

He takes offence and buggers off and deletes his images

The usual debate ensues about Critique, WB, and the colour of the moon… . etc. almost getting into the meaning of life, (sorry I mean’t photography)

sounds familiar

 

[TLR-330]

and hit with the usual WB, DLR, XYZ, ABC

WTF. Too many acronyms indeed FFS.
Yours TLR 330(f).

 

[Kodiak Qc]

you choose

I thought so…
re-read the thread and, if you're cool enough,
you will realize the few points, in this last reply,
that are not correct assessments of the séquen-
ce of events.

Of course, you don't have to.

… /

 

[BillN_33]

I thought so…
re-read the thread and, if you're cool enough,
you will realize the few points, in this last reply,
that are not correct assessments of the séquen-
ce of events.

Of course, you don't have to.

… /

we have all done it and experienced it .............. and it's not rocket science ............."it's all about the image" was what I was told years ago ........... if you take RAW images, unless you put the time in to learn a post processing application, your images will suffer to some degree

but it's not complicated

 

[BillN_33]

Carrying on this thread

I take RAW shots most of the time, (mainly birds) .......... they all need some kind of post processing ......... and technically it varies depending on the shooting conditions, (the light if you like) ..... sometimes quick - sometimes forever!

Processing usually takes two/three forms or passes .......... an initial overall look, then I process the bird separately from the background and then once I've got bird "right" - I have a go at the background ......

White Balance and getting the white and black points sorted along with the shadows and highlights are initial common tasks ....... and they are mentioned most of the time in Critique on here

getting these "right" is mostly a technical exercise ....... i.e. I'm sure that it could be done accurately by the application ....

Birds are complicated, because we usually want to process different areas of the image separately

Auto anything never works .. for me in LR or PS ....... it is usually way off ...... especially considering the different areas that I process .. but the basic "auto" setting are of little use

I'm just surprised that Adobe haven't been able to automate accurately the WB, DLR etc., processes for different areas of the image

 

[MatBin]

…not possible when the poster has NO for edit, Matt.


To put it simply, Matt, the shots were great captures
but the level of shooting was not supported by the
proposed renditions.

My comment was based on observable inconsistent…

• WB
• DRL
• saturation etc

These, among others, are taking a bunch of cool ca-
tures to the level of SET that is coherent in terms of
luminance, chrominance, graphic elements and story
telling.

OK WB I understand, White balance, but I thought some of teh shots suffered a little from under exposure rather than the wb being off.
DRL - please explain what this acronym stands for, Dynamic Range L? If it is Dynamic Range isnt that a function of the camera sensor rather than post processing.
Saturation - understand
SET - no idea

Matt

 

[viv1969]

OK WB I understand, White balance, but I thought some of teh shots suffered a little from under exposure rather than the wb being off.
DRL - please explain what this acronym stands for, Dynamic Range L? If it is Dynamic Range isnt that a function of the camera sensor rather than post processing.
Saturation - understand
SET - no idea

Matt

Most people struggle too, with the made up ones. Don't feel bad.

 

[Phil V]

Most people struggle too, with the made up ones. Don't feel bad.

It might just be that a direct translation doesn't work well, but feel free to stick with the snide remarks rather than making allowances for non native English speakers

 

[Cobra]

Most people struggle too, with the made up ones. Don't feel bad.

Its not only the made up ones
rendition
rɛnˈdɪʃ(ə)n/
noun

1. 1.
   a performance or interpretation, especially of a dramatic role or piece of music.
   "a wonderful rendition of ‘Nessun Dorma’"
   synonyms: performance, rendering, interpretation, presentation, execution, delivery; More
   
   • 2.
2. (especially in the US) the practice of sending a foreign criminal or terrorist suspect covertly to be interrogated in a country with less rigorous regulations for the humane treatment of prisoners.

render
ˈrɛndə/
verb
verb: render; 3rd person present: renders; past tense: rendered; past participle: rendered; gerund or present participle: rendering

1. 1.
   provide or give (a service, help, etc.).
   "money serves as a reward for services rendered"
   synonyms: give, provide, supply, furnish, make available, contribute; More
   
   
   • submit or present for inspection or consideration.
     "he would render income tax returns at the end of the year"
     synonyms: send in, present, tender, submit
     "the invoices rendered by the accountants amounted to £11,690"
   • deliver (a verdict or judgement).
     "the jury's finding amounted to the clearest verdict yet rendered upon the scandal"
     synonyms: deliver, return, hand down, bring in, give, announce, pronounce, proclaim
     "it was about an hour before the jury rendered their verdict"
   • literary
     give up; surrender.
     "he will render up his immortal soul"
     synonyms: give back, return, restore, pay back, repay, hand over, give up, surrender, relinquish, deliver, turn over, yield, cede
     "he was called upon to render up the stolen money"
2. 2.
   cause to be or become; make.
   "the rains rendered his escape impossible"
   synonyms: make, cause to be/become, leave
   "her fury rendered her temporarily speechless"
3. 3.
   represent or depict artistically.
   "the eyes and the cheeks are exceptionally well rendered"
   synonyms: paint, draw, depict, portray, represent, reproduce, execute; More
   
   
   • perform (a piece of music).
     "a soprano solo reverently rendered by Linda Howie"
     synonyms: perform, play, sing, execute, interpret
     "the French songstress had just rendered all three verses of the Marseillaise"
   • translate.
     "the phrase was rendered into English"
     synonyms: translate, put, express, transcribe, convert; More
     
     
   • COMPUTING
     process (an outline image) using colour and shading in order to make it appear solid and three-dimensional.
     "he is forced to render images by intermixing pixels of a few basic colours"
4. 4.
   covertly send (a foreign criminal or terrorist suspect) for interrogation abroad; subject to extraordinary rendition.
5. 5.
   melt down (fat) in order to clarify it.
   "the fat was being cut up and rendered for lard"
   synonyms: melt down, clarify, purify
   "the fat can be rendered and used for cooking"
   • process (the carcass of an animal) in order to extract proteins, fats, and other usable parts.
     "the rendered down remains of sheep"
6. 6.
   cover (stone or brick) with a coat of plaster.
   "external walls will be rendered and tiled"

noun
noun: render; plural noun: renders

1. 1.
   a first coat of plaster applied to a brick or stone surface.

 

[ChrisHeathcote]

OK WB I understand, White balance, but I thought some of teh shots suffered a little from under exposure rather than the wb being off.
DRL - please explain what this acronym stands for, Dynamic Range L? If it is Dynamic Range isnt that a function of the camera sensor rather than post processing.
Saturation - understand
SET - no idea

Matt

I may be wrong but I take "Set" to mean a collection of images that compliment the others to tell a story or narrative. In some cases having a single image that looks great on its own is enough, i.e. For a newspaper, whilst others situations require images to compliment each other, think of the wedding photographer who is trying to capture the story of the day.

 

[Kodiak Qc]

with the made up ones.

There you are again!

I explained these abbreviations repeatedly since I
joined the forum… but some can't learn easily!

There was a commotion then because some mem-
bers did not understand the word "rendition" that I use
all the time. Some members cooled down the situation
after checking the truth… and that was not you, btw.

Please get out of my cloud.

… /

 

[DemiLion]

If it is Dynamic Range isnt that a function of the camera sensor rather than post processing.

It can be massively influenced in post.

 

[Kodiak Qc]

I may be wrong

No! You're right on the button! Thanks Chris.

 

[viv1969]

It might just be that a direct translation doesn't work well, but feel free to stick with the snide remarks rather than making allowances for non native English speakers

Touch of irony there, Phil.
Some folks' grasp of English is sketchy when it suits them, but at times it's better than most native speakers. Funny that.

 

[Kodiak Qc]

If it is Dynamic Range isnt that a function of the camera sensor rather than post processing.

The DR is a feature of the camera to express in ƒ stops
its capacity to capture given brightness levels.

It can be massively influenced in post.

Yes and through the interpretation of the recorded data.
This interpretation expressed by the recorded levels (DRL)
makes non relative the terms under/over exposure.

 

[Phil V]

Touch of irony there, Phil.
Some folks' grasp of English is sketchy when it suits them, but at times it's better than most native speakers. Funny that.

It's the use of words, not being surrounded by English speakers, it's likely one might choose a word which isn't in common use

It's not complicated if you look upon it fairly

 

[viv1969]

There you are again!

I explained these abbreviations repeatedly since I
joined the forum… but some can't learn easily!

There was a commotion then because some mem-
bers did not understand the word "rendition" that I use
all the time. Some members cool down the situation
after checking the truth… and that was not you, btw.

Please get out of my cloud.

… /

Wow, you have tickets on yourself assuming things not directly aimed at you, are about you.

 

[Kodiak Qc]

it's likely one might choose a word which isn't in common use

Right. I get suggestions from google translate and many words
used in English are taken from French but used with a twist that
I am not familiar with… like in post #45.

Thanks for your générosité, Phil.

 

[MatBin]

I may be wrong, but a collection of motorcycle shots at a race meeting do not necessarily infere a set for me, I see them as a group of individual photographs, in the same way that when I have been at airshows I take a number of shots but I'm not telling a story, so each photograph represents one image I wish to capture.
Maybe this is all getting a bit deep for a simple person like me but I go someplace take some snaps and I am happy if they are in focus, exposed the way I wanted them to be and dont have things sticking out of heads etc.
To go much further than that would really ruin what for me (and maybe others) is a hobby not a profession/obsession.

Others may want more and I wish them well if it makes them happy.

Guess this where I bow out of what I thought might turn out to be a thread showing examples of before and after, clearly those that critique others at this point dont want to show where they have extensively modified a camera in post processing and as that was the reason for me posting it seems it has, for me, run its course.

Matt

 

[sphexx]

Right. I get suggestions from google translate and many words
used in English are taken from French but used with a twist that
I am not familiar with… like in post #45.

Don't feel too bad about not understanding what BillN meant in post #45 - I'm a native English speaker and wasn't sure what he meant.
Completely OT but many of the English words from French were from Norman French and since the normans were Vikings I'm not sure their French was that spoken in the rest of France at that time, and of course French has evolved over the centuries though not to the same extent as English. Hasn't something similar happened between Canadian French and French French?

 

[Orangecroc]

I may be wrong, but a collection of motorcycle shots at a race meeting do not necessarily infere a set for me, I see them as a group of individual photographs, in the same way that when I have been at airshows I take a number of shots but I'm not telling a story, so each photograph represents one image I wish to capture.
Maybe this is all getting a bit deep for a simple person like me but I go someplace take some snaps and I am happy if they are in focus, exposed the way I wanted them to be and dont have things sticking out of heads etc.
To go much further than that would really ruin what for me (and maybe others) is a hobby not a profession/obsession.

Others may want more and I wish them well if it makes them happy.

Guess this where I bow out of what I thought might turn out to be a thread showing examples of before and after, clearly those that critique others at this point dont want to show where they have extensively modified a camera in post processing and as that was the reason for me posting it seems it has, for me, run its course.

Matt

If you were to supply some before images for people to work on they might be able to show you.

 

[Kodiak Qc]

Hasn't something similar happened between Canadian French and French French?

You're right, yes, absolutely.

Historically (16th c.), some prisoners in the metropole were offered
their freedom if they go to Nouvelle France to colonize the land.
Later, England conquered the said lands and that was it. The French
were denied their culture, language and schools.

Surviving under British rule for a couple of centuries, we —Québécois,
got out of that situation; took back control of our culture and language
in the 1960's. Since then, culture and language are treated as precious.

Contrary to the France French, we did not let our language be corrupted
by unduly use of foreign words. France and Nouvelle France spoke the
same language then… but not any more. We take pride in it.

 

[Phil V]

I may be wrong, but a collection of motorcycle shots at a race meeting do not necessarily infere a set for me, I see them as a group of individual photographs, in the same way that when I have been at airshows I take a number of shots but I'm not telling a story, so each photograph represents one image I wish to capture.
Maybe this is all getting a bit deep for a simple person like me but I go someplace take some snaps and I am happy if they are in focus, exposed the way I wanted them to be and dont have things sticking out of heads etc.
To go much further than that would really ruin what for me (and maybe others) is a hobby not a profession/obsession.

Others may want more and I wish them well if it makes them happy.

Guess this where I bow out of what I thought might turn out to be a thread showing examples of before and after, clearly those that critique others at this point dont want to show where they have extensively modified a camera in post processing and as that was the reason for me posting it seems it has, for me, run its course.

Matt

If you were advertising those images, that attitude wouldn't float

 

[Phil V]

Don't feel too bad about not understanding what BillN meant in post #45 - I'm a native English speaker and wasn't sure what he meant.
Completely OT but many of the English words from French were from Norman French and since the normans were Vikings I'm not sure their French was that spoken in the rest of France at that time, and of course French has evolved over the centuries though not to the same extent as English. Hasn't something similar happened between Canadian French and French French?

The 'french' language didn't exist till the 20th century...

 

[Kodiak Qc]

The 'french' language didn't exist till the 20th century...

???

 

[Phil V]

???

I should have added AFAIK.

 

[Orangecroc]

The 'french' language didn't exist till the 20th century...

"Old french" has been recorded as far back as the 8th century.

 

[Kodiak Qc]

I should have added AFAIK.

Since the Renaissance, French has produce the most ex-
tensive library in literatures of all kind, from poésie to science,
through theatre plays etc in Europe … all in French.

In my years in school, I had to study these as we had, as a
nation, no such works to bring up.

 

[Phil V]

"Old french" has been recorded as far back as the 8th century.

And German was spoken in Alsace commonly into the 20th century, at which point the government insisted on only teaching in French.

In 1992 the constitution was amended to state explicitly that "the language of the Republic is French."

 

[Kodiak Qc]

If you were to supply some before images for people to work on they might be able to show you.

That would the best you could do, Matt but
to be fair, it should be RAW.

 

[Kodiak Qc]

"Old french" has been recorded as far back as the 8th century.

Right Ben… I wanted to say much more but I hate typing

 

[Kodiak Qc]

German was spoken in Alsace commonly into the 20th century

…but l'Alsace is only a region of France and the
language was there far before.

 

[Phil V]

Right Ben… I wanted to say much more but I hate typing

I'm not saying French didn't exist as a language, but the French have a shaky relationship with an 'official' language.