CRB Checks

cosmicma said:
why do you think that ??

more or less any other profession that involves children or work in close proximity requires one ie contract builders working within a school grounds

i know crb is not fool proof but it's better than nothing
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The only people that require CRBs with regard to children, are those that work with them unsupervised.

Use of the checking system for anything else is

a) pointless

And

b) in complete contrast to the purpose of their existence.
 
munch said:
This is a lot of of the problem with CRB checks, too many people believe that anyone within site of a child must have a CRB check.


The fact that a it only picks up people who may have been caught for committing an offence.

Is very often not applied as it should be. The original OP's belief that it will be good for trade if he has one, just reinforces how poor this whole CRB thing is.

The big concern for me is that as a society we have become to dependent on bits of paper and have stopped actually asking questions.
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well i hope you don't think i am one of the too many but do think that if you are working with children some sort of check should be done unfortunately crb is all we've got and unfortunately not everyone will give you a truthful answer when asked questions
 
cosmicma said:
why do you think that ??

more or less any other profession that involves children or work in close proximity requires one ie contract builders working within a school grounds

i know crb is not fool proof but it's better than nothing
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I have been taking photographs of families/children for the past 5 years and I am not CBR checked and don't ever intend to be. And yes, within studio environment I am sometimes in close proximity to kids, so what?

In all that time I have only been asked by one set of parents if I had been CRB cleared and when I explained I wasn't but I didn't need one, they were fine. As far as I know the general public, and some members here are so ignorant of the law regarding this, its untrue

All sensible photographers would never be left alone with kids, not even for 10 seconds.

As far as I can see, all this nonsense about CRB just makes people guilt before being found innocent.


Off my soap box now.
 
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Actually cosmica I do, you have posted a couple of posts on here that indicate to me that you don't understand CRB checks.

Builders working within school grounds only have to have CRB checks because ill informed people insist they have them.
 
If we bring back hanging for Murderers, Rapists and Peados (Not sports wear) You wont need a check. But this country is soft in the head and lets people who do these low sordid things free after a few years.

Do the crime.... Terminate the buggers. Frees space in prison and the tax payer.

Back to the point. Schools/clubs do this to cover their back that is all it is.

If do not want to get turned away for a shoot just go get one.

Right or wrong I don't care. Photographers do NOT need one but I and all our togs do have them. Because we will loose money/a shoot if we don't.

Just get one and be done with.
 
Daryl said:
If do not want to get turned away for a shoot just go get one.
.
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thing is if they think they do need one and they are doing it propperly they should insist on a new check at every school - sight of an old certificate is not sufficient for a position that does require a CRB
 
cosmicma said:
well i hope you don't think i am one of the too many but do think that if you are working with children some sort of check should be done unfortunately crb is all we've got and unfortunately not everyone will give you a truthful answer when asked questions
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If you take that attitude, CRB checks should be compulsory before parenthood (isn't that effectively what's being talked about with this Clare's Law thing).

After all, statistically you are more likely to abuse your own child than any stranger is.
 
Ok so we can all see that you dont legally need a CRB disclosure as a photographer right. But what harm does it do/

If it gives clients a sense (even if it is a false one) that there children are in safe hands its got to be a good thing.

Insurance is not a legal requirement but that does not change the benefits of having it.
 
Alastair said:
If you take that attitude, CRB checks should be compulsory before parenthood (isn't that effectively what's being talked about with this Clare's Law thing).

After all, statistically you are more likely to abuse your own child than any stranger is.
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that last statement is a little direct
what you trying to say i am am likely to abuse my own children or children under my care ?

care to elaborate ?
 
cosmicma said:
i think if your are working with children an enhanced crb check should be compulsory which i thought it was
i foster children which i know isn't the same as just taking photo's but i think if your going to photograph children at a professional level the very minimum should be a crb and preferably an enhanced one
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I suppose that next you will be asking that anyone visiting the local park where children play then they will need an enhanced crb check as well, and then it will be anyone walking past a school or those visiting a museum whilst there is a school visit.

Give me one single GOOD reason why you think a crb check is required for a photographer!
 
awphot said:
Give me one single GOOD reason why you think a crb check is required for a photographer!
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I think this post has been in a majority agreement that it is not "required".

What people cant do is give me a reason why it hurts to have one. If it adds a sense of security for your clients its got to be a good thing.
 
cosmicma said:
that last statement is a little direct
what you trying to say i am am likely to abuse my own children or children under my care ?

care to elaborate ?
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Statistically more children are subject to abuse by those they know or who are members of their own family than by strangers.
That means that, yes, statistically speaking you are more likely to abuse your child then I am.
 
Woah... I didnt realise how much of a debate this question would cause!!
So we all understand that peeps have such strong views on CRB checks.

Dont feel that my original question has been answered though, ha ha ha.

Thanks for all your opinions though guys.
 
snap said:
Dont feel that my original question has been answered though, ha ha ha.
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It has been a few times mate. You need to find an umbrella body. A quick google search will find you that.

Also at least one has been posted on this thread.
 
awphot said:
I suppose that next you will be asking that anyone visiting the local park where children play then they will need an enhanced crb check as well, and then it will be anyone walking past a school or those visiting a museum whilst there is a school visit.

Give me one single GOOD reason why you think a crb check is required for a photographer!
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now your going a bit far not to mention taking the whole thing way out of context

peace of mind for the customer i would have thought is a good enough reason

give me a good reason why a crb check shouldn't be a requirement

portrait photography taken up in course of a business is a profession just like any other most other businesses working with children require one
i don't see a problem with it

any way whats all this ??
have a go because i voiced an opinion ?

i think they should be compulsory for anyone working with children supervised or not i don't have a problem with people who don't agree with this it's my thoughts on the matter and there it ends
 
cosmicma said:
now your going a bit far not to mention taking the whole thing way out of context

peace of mind for the customer i would have thought is a good enough reason

give me a good reason why a crb check shouldn't be a requirement
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Peace of mind is not a good reason to me. Why? simply because anyone with half a brain cell knows that they are worthless.

A reason why they shouldn't be a requirement. Easy. They are a waste of money and time and not worth the paper they are written on.
This has been shown many times when people have had the checks and still been abusers of kids and vulnerable adults.
All those working in the various care homes who have over the years been found to be abusing the residents have had crb checks.
Recent (in the past couple of years at least) there have been more than one case where people in charge of nurseries have been done for child abuse.
Need I go on.

They are a waste of time and mean only that the person with the check has not been caught.


cosmicma said:
portrait photography taken up in course of a business is a profession just like any other most other businesses working with children require one
i don't see a problem with it
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Wrong. If you work in a toy store you do not need one. Shop assistants working in Mothercare do not "require" one, if you work in Macdonalds you do not require one, if you are a kids entertainer you do not require one and all those people will have as much contact with kids as a portrait photographer would/might have.


cosmicma said:
any way whats all this ??
have a go because i voiced an opinion ?
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Not having a go at you at all, Just expressing my opinion as you did yours.
I absolutely disagree with you and with the crb system as a whole for a number of reasons, not the least of which are that it is not reliable, it does not make kids any safer, it is expensive to run, prone to errors and various other things.


cosmicma said:
i think they should be compulsory for anyone working with children supervised or not i don't have a problem with people who don't agree with this it's my thoughts on the matter and there it ends
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I would still like to know why you think it should be compulsory for anyone working with kids. Tell me what exactly do you think makes them the be all and end all of child protection?
 
What do you do with your CRB once you've got it?

Frame it on the wall?


(you don't need it, but you've gone and got it for the peace of mind of the customer)
 
awphot said:
I would still like to know why you think it should be compulsory for anyone working with kids. Tell me what exactly do you think makes them the be all and end all of child protection?
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i don't think it's the be all and end all of child protection but at this moment in time it's the only check we've got and i know it's not foolproof and children have still been abused under the scheme but i don't think it's a waste of money if anything at all it would put previous offenders off particular lines of work knowing their past would be revealed and that to me has to be a good thing

i think this topic is going too far on a tangent our own thoughts on the matter doesn't really matter the OP only wanted to know where they could get one done

i suppose looking at it from all angles a legal requirement is a bit strong but i still don't think having one done is a bad thing
 
asphotographymk said:
Ok so we can all see that you dont legally need a CRB disclosure as a photographer right. But what harm does it do/

If it gives clients a sense (even if it is a false one) that there children are in safe hands its got to be a good thing.

Insurance is not a legal requirement but that does not change the benefits of having it.
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No,what it put in people head is why does this person need a check for ?,I didnt known that photographer needer to be checked,does he or she want to be alone with my kid :suspect:
 
simonblue said:
No,what it put in people head is why does this person need a check for ?,I didnt known that photographer needer to be checked,does he or she want to be alone with my kid :suspect:
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That is the most ridiclous statment . :bonk: You are telling me if someone had a CRB disclouser you would suspect them more. The average parent that did not have some strange way of twisting things would see it as a sense of security and make them feel they are going to a professional. This may be a false sense of security but it exists. There are abslouty no disadvantages to having it other than maybe the money it costs.
 
It's not a requirement,for a photographer.
CRB check are their for a reason,for people who work closely with children,not their as a marketing tool for photographer.
And if you do take photos of children,you should alway make sure you have a parent or guardin in the same room as you :)
 
Jeeeeezzzz !!!!!!!! Did IQs drop sharply whilst i was away???

Photographers DO NOT NEED A CRB.

but establishments either do not or will not understand this.

SO, They ask for a CRB so it covers them whether legal/Needed/ or not.

SO better to waste £50/£70 quid on the thiving robbing Government than not be allowed to do a shoot from some miss guided half wit Arse that has the power to let me on the premisses or not.

I'm in this for the money not the Polictical horse crap you lot all keep bitching about.

You want to shoot kids any where, then get a CRB it's so easy my Dog has one!

How many more threads will there be covering an easy but boring subject...

It's getting like 'Insurance' Do I buy from a good company or one that give a free pair of Budgie Smugglers!!!!!!!

Agree to disagree.


Now lets talk about Ponies?
 
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Daryl said:
Jeeeeezzzz !!!!!!!! Did IQs drop sharply whilst i was away???

Photographers DO NOT NEED A CRB.

but establishments either do not or will not understand this.

SO, They ask for a CRB so it covers them whether legal/Needed/ or not.

SO better to waste £50/£70 quid on the thiving robbing Government than not be allowed to do a shoot from some miss guided half wit Arse that has the power to let me on the premisses or not.

I'm in this for the money not the Polictical horse crap you lot all keep bitching about.

You want to shoot kids any where, then get a CRB it's so easy my Dog has one!

How many more threads will there be covering an easy but boring subject...

It's getting like 'Insurance' Do I buy from a good company or one that give a free pair of Budie Smugglers!!!!!!!

Agree to disagree.
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Thats just it, as others have already said... A CRB is just like an MOT, its only valid the day its carried out !

Do you need one ? I dont think you do however it would be a nice to have, I need one but thats because my job requires it, I am a Firefighter and some people are shocked to hear that we need them.

if you want it and can afford it, get it !
 
simonblue said:
It's not a requirement,for a photographer.
CRB check are their for a reason,for people who work closely with children,not their as a marketing tool for photographer.
And if you do take photos of children,you should alway make sure you have a parent or guardin in the same room as you :)
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Who has ever said they do not have a parent or guardian in the room?
And yes we are all aware It's not a requirement,for a photographer. Why the busted record?

You are missing the point here.

Why should it not be used as a marketing tool? Its a marketing tool that works so use it. It makes parents feel safe to book you. No harm in that really. There is nothing saying a photographer should not have one or should not let there clients know they have one. This is a marketing tool and this is a benefit to your business.

I can't understand why you can't grasp the idea that while like insurance - back up equpiment or even a website it is not a legal requirment it can only be good for your business.

£50 to make parents or clients feel some sense of security and safety with you.. Worth the money really.
 
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munch said:
Actually cosmica I do, you have posted a couple of posts on here that indicate to me that you don't understand CRB checks.

Builders working within school grounds only have to have CRB checks because ill informed people insist they have them.
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i do understand crb checks and there not just about the protection of children
considering they show all criminal activity ( standard check ) of which only a particular type of criminal acts would be relevant
shoplifting for example would not automatically exclude you but violence or aggravated burglary would although they have nothing to do with children as such

at the end of the day it's down to the employers discretion to hire you or not regardless of what a crb discloses
where that leaves the self employed photographer is another story
 
asphotographymk said:
Who has ever said they do not have a parent or guardian in the room?
And yes we are all aware It's not a requirement,for a photographer. Why the busted record?

You are missing the point here.

Why should it not be used as a marketing tool? Its a marketing tool that works so use it. It makes parents feel safe to book you. No harm in that really. There is nothing saying a photographer should not have one or should not let there clients know they have one. This is a marketing tool and this is a benefit to your business.

I can't understand why you can't grasp the idea that while like insurance - back up equpiment or even a website it is not a legal requirment it can only be good for your business.

£50 to make parents or clients feel some sense of security and safety with you.. Worth the money really.
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Ok,but some of us have to have an CRB,because of the job we do,it's not an marking tool,it's is an necessity for us to work.
And also their are different CRB checks depending on how closely you work with children & their age.
So we have to take theses checks very seriously,because our jobs depend on them.
:)
 
simonblue said:
Ok,but some of us have to have an CRB,because of the job we do,it's not an marking tool,it's is an necessity for us to work.
And also their are different CRB checks depending on how closely you work with children & their age.
So we have to take theses checks very seriously,because our jobs depend on them.
:)
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hmmm yes. Some people depend on them. Some people don't. So to them people who don't its a great marketing tool.

I do lots of events and proms and in all my marketing material i always add a point that our photographers have regular CRB disclosures. I don't have to have it to do the job no. but the clients sure like that i do.

I don't really see what the big deal in that is. As it happens i have a second PT roll that requires a CRB every 3 years but that does not mean i am in some way offended by people getting them for reasons other than necesity.

Its not going to damage the system in some way if people use them for other reasons than necessity is it.

Some industries require insurence by law and some don't. That does not mean there are no benefits to having it for those who do not require it.
 
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as to why you should not use them as a marketting tool

a) because it perpetuates the stereotype that its necessary when its not, which is proffesionally irresponsible

and

b) because running unecessary CRB checks puts extra strain on a system thats already creaking under the load of necessary ones so its also socially irresponsible ( The CRB themselves are discouraging the running of unnecssary checks for this very reason which is why many UBs won't do them for togs now meaning you have to use the more expensive agencies) - and Uneccessarily burdening the system does cause harm because it delays necessary checks being done.

It also perpetuates the idea that businesses can cover themselves by seeing an old crb which is not the case - roles that require a crb require a specific check - seeing a bit of paper which could be 'shopped for all they know doesnt cover them in anyway shape or form
 
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big soft moose said:
as to why you should not use them as a marketting tool

a) because it perpetuates the stereotype that its necessary when its not, which is proffesionally irresponsible

and

b) because running unecessary CRB checks puts extra strain on a system thats already creaking under the load of necessary ones so its also socially irresponsible ( The CRB themselves are discouraging the running of unnecssary checks for this very reason which is why many UBs won't do them for togs now meaning you have to use the more expensive agencies) - and Uneccessarily burdening the system does cause harm because it delays necessary checks being done.

It also perpetuates the idea that businesses can cover themselves by seeing an old crb which is not the case - roles that require a crb require a specific check - seeing a bit of paper which could be 'shopped for all they know doesnt cover them in anyway shape or form
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These are all reasons that i simply couldn't give a toss about ha. Business is selfish and what i meant was there was no downside to an individuals business.

I don't think the perception will ever go away that it is needed or holds value so i would rather that my clients felt safe and my business felt the benefits.

I agree it does to cover anyone. But it makes some clients feel at ease and improves my customer relations. WIN
 
fair play - but even for the business focu there is a significant downside

a) feeding parental paranoia (ably assisted by the ****nuts at the daily mail) will eventually lead to you starting to lose losing clients because "that CRB check is 3 months old , I want to see a more up to date one" and you therefore having to pay more cash out to keep your (totally unecessary) certificate current

(taken to extremes it could also one day lead to parents deciding that its just 'too risky' to let a stranger photograph little jimmy and thus kill that market for everyone)

b) coupled with this if the system is overloaded sooner or later they'll need more staff (and faster computers) and as the govt is highly unlikely to increase funding the only way to pay for this will be to put the fees up - increasing the cost to businesses even more.

so in summary you will be paying out an increased fee on a regular basis for a bit of paper you don't even need = Lose

Or alternately the overload will lead to the CRB cracking down hard on unnecsaary CRBs and you'll no longer be able to get one leaving you in the position of having created a client expectation of something you can no longer proved = epic fail
 
The thing is Pete you could use what ifs for any business decision. The fact is right now in the current state it helps business. I don't actually believe people look into it enough for it to get any further as they see the words CRB and breath a sign of relief. Most would not even ask to see it but of course you can't claim to have it if you don't.
 
by that logic you could just run one up in photoshop :lol:

Lets just agree to disagree on this one - I understand what you are saying, its just a subject that gets my back up because I have to run (essential) enhanced CRBs on staff at work and they take an absolute age to come back (the last one took nearly 6 months)

when we querry the delay with the CRB they say its due to the volume of demand on the system - QED
 
big soft moose said:
by that logic you could just run one up in photoshop :lol:

Lets just agree to disagree on this one - I understand what you are saying, its just a subject that gets my back up because I have to run (essential) enhanced CRBs on staff at work and they take an absolute age to come back (the last one took nearly 6 months)

when we querry the delay with the CRB they say its due to the volume of demand on the system - QED
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You could but that would be fraud. it would give the same benefit to the clients but this is illegal behavuor and i would never encourage this.
I have crb done for my SIA and my last one was about 4 months ago and i had that done in 2 weeks.
 
Is that enhanced or standard ? in my expereince its enhanced that takes flipping ages.

Incidentally when i started my first ranger jon the CEO was alledgedly in the same lodge as a senior cop and alledgedly used to get criminal record checks done on staff off the books for a small 'fee' - that was prior to CRB days
 
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asphotographymk said:
These are all reasons that i simply couldn't give a toss about ha. Business is selfish and what i meant was there was no downside to an individuals business.

I don't think the perception will ever go away that it is needed or holds value so i would rather that my clients felt safe and my business felt the benefits.

I agree it does to cover anyone. But it makes some clients feel at ease and improves my customer relations. WIN
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Glad to see the business world does not give a toss,and would galdly use somthing that was put their to protect our children,for their owe gain,you sound a nice person :shake:
 
snap said:
Just to clear this up.... No, I am never alone with children or vulnerable adults.

I think its more of a selling point...
You want your child photographed, you have 2 choices; a photographer who's CRB checked or one that isnt...
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You might have noticed the general trend of this thread is that 'You don't need one'. The biggest issue working photographers have is being expected to have one where it isn't required.:bang:

And now we find there are photographers using it as a 'Marketing' tool. That'll help us to Professionally dismiss the myth that we all need one.:bang:

And Yes I have one:thumbs:
OOps posted from P2 and missed the debate above.
 
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simonblue said:
Glad to see the business world does not give a toss,and would galdly use somthing that was put their to protect our children,for their owe gain,you sound a nice person :shake:
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O come on get a grip. There is no rule or law that says business cant have crb checks available to there customers to help them feel at ease with the people working with there children. Dont start implying that in some way by me having a CRB check i am in some way endangering children. And actually you are very wrong about why we have them, there are many other industry's such as security, fire, ambulance and i am guess many more who are required by law to have them done and that is not for working with children.

Yes i am will use anything that makes my clients feel at ease for the gain of my business. So long as its within the law i couldnt give a toss what people like you think about that. Now get off your high horse and get over it.
 
Phil V said:
And now we find there are photographers using it as a 'Marketing' tool. That'll help us to Professionally dismiss the myth that we all need one.:bang:
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I really dont see what peoples problem with that is. Parents like to feel safe with the people working with there kids.THey see "CRB checked photographer" and it puts there mind at rest. I am not in business to deal with the political issues or requirements in industry's i am there to make money and keep my clients happy. As it stands that keeps my clients happy. Lets face it for the sake of £50 it does not hurt anyone. Who cares if the myth is that you need one. Just get one then. You dont need insurance but there is a myth that you do... best cancel my insurance policy just incase more people start thinking its a requirement :cuckoo: . And yes insurance is also used in marketing. "fully insured photographers" a great line to add on when dealing with events.
 
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