Congrats England Women

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Come on,Robin. You've totally evaded my question which I highlighted in bold. ..after you'd told me me who NP was. I got photographs up of the three non-white squad members and was unable to identify which one of them came on near the end. The timing of when she came on wasn't the issue. The issue I was highlighting was that in a squad of 23 there was only NP and two other non-white players...who I now know to be, Demi Stokes and Jess Carter. I cannot see what your comments about the manager's decisions re selection and meritocracy had anything to do with the subject in discussion. If,as you say, all you were doing was identifying NP for me that's all you had to say. "That late sub was Nikita Parris" No more,no less.

Re Alex Scott. 140 England appearances and now an excellent football pundit for BBC and Sky. A conscious decision not to name her. ? Yes. I almost did but she wasn't relevant to the point I was making. Ie minimal representation of non-white players in the England squad.

Overthinking ? No..'some' aren't overthinking the issues involved as to why this situation exists and I'll give you an example after addressing your other points.

"The benefits and momentum of this milestone win will drive forward of its own accord and what will be will be"

No, absolutely not. You're advocating 'laissez faire' It will still require a hard drive by those involved to take this forward in a meaningful way. I've listened to one programme after another since Sunday ..even Radio4 Women's Hour..having discussions with those in high places in the Women's game saying how important it is to keep this ball rolling (non pun intended) in terms of training grounds, exposure and sponsorship as I mentioned. They could do with approaching the advisors ..the PR people.. for the Cambridges for advice. Namely, Lee Thompson who is the new Head of the PR team. You can hardly see a newspaper in which William and Kate don't feature and additionally at all major events (by having made them 'patrons' )along with any high profile issue in the country. Ie..keeping them in the public eye and more to the point, the mind.

Agree re your last point re.Oberdorf. It wasn't a good look.

Re your 'overthinking' comment I don't want to make this post any longer so I'll create a new one giving reasons why girls, from inner-city, deprived and ethnic backgrounds arfe disadvantaged as opposed to boys who make it into the Premiere League and the England squad.

I would just like to put these stats out there.
The Black community make up 3% of the UK demographic. Over the past 10 years the England women's squad have been comprised of 14% Black players. If there is one Black player in a starting England 11, then that is three times higher than the national demographic. Therefore Black women are actually over represented in the Englad women's team. Of course the following article does not mention that fact.
If we really wanted to put a fair (based on demographics) number, then only three Black women out of one hundred women players would be in the England women's squad.
But then, I would rather select teams on merit, which I think this rather excellent coach has done, because the end has certainly justified the means.

 
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Not quite sure why RedRobin has done a ‘HaHa’ on this post.

I sort of hoped he might respond with some text.
.... I thought you were joking when you said :
What about pink people? Can they succeed?
.... I thought you meant pink skinned people of white races? As said in my earlier post, there are challenges and hurdles to ALL aspiring young footballers regardless of the colour of their skin and that includes white, *pink, whatever.

Let us remind ourselves of and feel some joy in the fact that the Lionesse's Euro win has already kick started the road to progress leading to potential success for aspiring young footballers. But let us also remember that every single player, regardless of colour, needs skills as a footballer to succeed - Tokenism is NOT the way forward!

*Please don't tell me that 'pink people' is now a term given to part of the LGBTQ community!
 
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”Coloured” is a largely discredited pejorative term. Unless you are in South Africa, where it is an historically defined racial group (albeit also sensitive as it has Apartheid connotations)

It’s use nowadays tends to be out of lack of awareness of the problems with it, insensitivity, or heaven forbid, racism.
 
.... I thought you were joking when you said :

.... I thought you meant pink skinned people of white races? As said in my earlier post, there are challenges and hurdles to ALL aspiring young footballers regardless of the colour of their skin and that includes white, *pink, whatever.

Let us remind ourselves of and feel some joy in the fact that the Lionesse's Euro win has already kick started the road to progress leading to potential success for aspiring young footballers. But let us also remember that every single player, regardless of colour, needs skills as a footballer to succeed - Tokenism is NOT the way forward!

*Please don't tell me that 'pink people' is now a term given to part of the LGBTQ community!

Pink skinned doesn't include me though, because depending on the temperature, my skin colour can be anything from light blue to sockeye salmon.
 
I would just like to put these stats out there.
The Black community make up 3% of the UK demographic. Over the past 10 years the England women's squad have been comprised of 14% Black players. If there is one Black player in a starting England 11, then that is three times higher than the national demographic. Therefore Black women are actually over represented in the Englad women's team. Of course the following article does not mention that fact.
If we really wanted to put a fair (based on demographics) number, then only three Black women out of one hundred women players would be in the England women's squad.
But then, I would rather select teams on merit, which I think this rather excellent coach has done, because the end has certainly justified the means.


I cannot work out why some make an issue of this. If you look at the stats then the mens team is over-represented by BAME players but most of us dont give a damn - they could all be white, al be black, I just want us to win.

I know there is 'concern' about the lack of SE Asian players but I dont believe this is a racial thing. I dont see that many SE Asian players in my sons football team/opponents, yet when he plays cricket it is not uncommon for them to make up half or more of the team, so more of a cultural thing of preferring some sports to cricket.
 
”Coloured” is a largely discredited pejorative term. Unless you are in South Africa, where it is an historically defined racial group (albeit also sensitive as it has Apartheid connotations)

It’s use nowadays tends to be out of lack of awareness of the problems with it, insensitivity, or heaven forbid, racism.
.... Goodness me!

Surely you realise that I mean nothing insensitive or racist when I use the word "Coloured". I use it merely as an overall general term to cover black, Asian, and any other non-white peoples rather than write the whole list of them.

So, other than 'coloured' what do you suggest is the politically correct term to cover several races please?

The last time I looked, non-white (do you prefer that term?) people were encouraging everyone to describe them as "people of colour".

As an aside I think the term 'non-white' encourages segregation and even implies white superiority.

How does a thread congratulating the England Women's football squad degenerate into a discussion about perceived racial inequalities in football or indeed any sport?
 
Football also carries its own stigma: parents “don’t want to be the family that’s got ‘that child that’s playing football’,” Nelson says. They do not always see a financial return — or a career — in women’s football compared with men’s and demand their daughters focus on education or starting a family.

Not sure I agree with this - any player in the mens game making a career as a pro is a very tiny fraction of the amount of players going for it - most, regardless of colour will simply not make it
 
.... Goodness me!

Surely you realise that I mean nothing insensitive or racist when I use the word "Coloured". I use it merely as an overall general term to cover black, Asian, and any other non-white peoples rather than write the whole list of them.

So, other than 'coloured' what do you suggest is the politically correct term to cover several races please?

The last time I looked, non-white (do you prefer that term?) people were encouraging everyone to describe them as "people of colour".

As an aside I think the term 'non-white' encourages segregation and even implies white superiority.

How does a thread congratulating the England Women's football squad degenerate into a discussion about perceived racial inequalities in football or indeed any sport?
Looking back, #53 and then replies to it.

As for the term “coloured”, pink is a colour. All people are coloured.

There are words from the past, that you probably grew up with, that are no-no words now. ”coloured” as a descriptor has pretty much gone that way. Glad to be of help to you ;)
 
We then have to think about the stadium size if the women's game is going to take off. At the moment, Arsenal Women play at Borehamwood FC, which has a capacity of 4,500 compared to the 82,000 at Wembley on Sunday. Chelsea Women play at Kingsmeadow which has a capacity of 4,800, can anyone see a pattern emerging here?



Supply & demand - whats the point of opening up a 50k stadium when only 2k will turn up? Maybe things will change after the Euros, but I dont think they were selling out those 4k grounds beforehand. I know Cambridge Utd womens team is not that well established but they got 40 and 65 fans for a couple of games last season, some around 150 and one cup game of 500. Compare this to the average of 5.5k for the mens team.
 
One of my favourite films : The trailer shows lots of content relevant to the way this thread has gone.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3IwGeYMepvM


I have recently learnt that the film was inspired by Ian Wright running onto the pitch with a Union Jack.
 
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Looking back, #53 and then replies to it.

As for the term “coloured”, pink is a colour. All people are coloured.

There are words from the past, that you probably grew up with, that are no-no words now. ”coloured” as a descriptor has pretty much gone that way. Glad to be of help to you ;)
.... Yes #53 was what kicked it off.

Re "All people are coloured" you are being somewhat and unnecessarily pedantic now :D.

You haven't helped me by answering my question what the politically correct or trending descriptor word is now. So, please, what is it so that I may avoid using "no-no words".
 
Supply & demand - whats the point of opening up a 50k stadium when only 2k will turn up? Maybe things will change after the Euros, but I dont think they were selling out those 4k grounds beforehand. I know Cambridge Utd womens team is not that well established but they got 40 and 65 fans for a couple of games last season, some around 150 and one cup game of 500. Compare this to the average of 5.5k for the mens team.
There are other factors too, like the condition of the pitch, which deteriorates with more matches being played. (Although youth and women’s games don’t do as much damage to the pitch as mens, because of weight/bulk). I think in the old days training was done on main pitches. Now there are training grounds and the main pitches are kept as immaculate as possible.

I wouldn’t call it supply and demand as such - I’d say there is a cost to opening a stadium up, and getting punters in helps pay for that. Having said that, I beleive that income from tickets is about 15% of a Premiership clubs income?
 
.... Yes #53 was what kicked it off.

Re "All people are coloured" you are being somewhat and unnecessarily pedantic now :D.

You haven't helped me by answering my question what the politically correct or trending descriptor word is now. So, please, what is it so that I may avoid using "no-no words".
Well, white people are not actually white, they are pink. Surely as a photographer you have noticed this, your photos don’t seem to have really weird white balance ;)
 
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There are other factors too, like the condition of the pitch, which deteriorates with more matches being played. (Although youth and women’s games don’t do as much damage to the pitch as mens, because of weight/bulk). I think in the old days training was done on main pitches. Now there are training grounds and the main pitches are kept as immaculate as possible.

I wouldn’t call it supply and demand as such - I’d say there is a cost to opening a stadium up, and getting punters in helps pay for that. Having said that, I beleive that income from tickets is about 15% of a Premiership clubs income?

Cambridge is £18 to stand, although for the womens matches they did play at the main stadium I think tickets were £1-3 so a negligible cost. Hence probably part of the reason they use St Neots which is a small town
 
.... Goodness me!

Surely you realise that I mean nothing insensitive or racist when I use the word "Coloured". I use it merely as an overall general term to cover black, Asian, and any other non-white peoples rather than write the whole list of them.

So, other than 'coloured' what do you suggest is the politically correct term to cover several races please?

The last time I looked, non-white (do you prefer that term?) people were encouraging everyone to describe them as "people of colour".

As an aside I think the term 'non-white' encourages segregation and even implies white superiority.

How does a thread congratulating the England Women's football squad degenerate into a discussion about perceived racial inequalities in football or indeed any sport?

I wouldn't worry about it, because nobody seems to be able to agree on whether it is offensive or not. There is even a debate over BAME, whether it "others" Black people.

 
I cannot work out why some make an issue of this. If you look at the stats then the mens team is over-represented by BAME players but most of us dont give a damn - they could all be white, al be black, I just want us to win.

I know there is 'concern' about the lack of SE Asian players but I dont believe this is a racial thing. I dont see that many SE Asian players in my sons football team/opponents, yet when he plays cricket it is not uncommon for them to make up half or more of the team, so more of a cultural thing of preferring some sports to cricket.

When I played cricket for my department in a large local authority, the entire Supplies department team was Asian and that was back in the early eighties. When I played county league badminton, there were always quite a few Asian players involved, but then badminton is huge in Asia - Indonesia, Malaysia, India, China. In 2019, there were only 10 out of 4,000 British Asian players in the football league.

 
Well, white people are not actually white, they are pink. Surely as a photographer you have noticed this, your photos don’t seem to have really weird white balance ;)

Yes, we know that, so why do groups such as BLM refer to "white privilege", that surely is a racist thing to say?
 
Well, white people are not actually white, they are pink. Surely as a photographer you have noticed this, your photos don’t seem to have really weird white balance ;)
Actually they are near enough a colourless grey. it is only the blood showing through the skin that give them the colour, however most people have at least a modicum of tan.
 
I feel sad that I actually started this thread saying well done to the womens team, never mind as most threads go hay wire once opened.
.... It is sad that such an elevating subject's discussion thread has gone that way. And it's not even in Hot Topics where such things often go off topic with a vengeance.
 
Actually they are near enough a colourless grey. it is only the blood showing through the skin that give them the colour, however most people have at least a modicum of tan.
..... Colourless grey makes me think of zombies.

There is a rare condition which manifests itself in bright blue skin, and it really is bright blue! I have only seen it once, on a gentleman in a well tailored suit in the dining room of The Ritz Hotel in Madrid.
 
Avatarism?
 
Well, white people are not actually white, they are pink. Surely as a photographer you have noticed this, your photos don’t seem to have really weird white balance ;)
.... As someone who regularly photographs surfers I do often have to deal with exposed skin parts such as hands and sometimes faces looking too pink and almost red. But any depth of colour in their skin when I meet them afterwards on the beach is something I had always attributed to the result of very vigorous exercise in a cold sea! Most surfers become tanned anyway.

So you still haven't helped by telling me what the current politically correct term for someone previously referred to as 'coloured' is. As someone who appears to be so up to speed on such subjects, surely you know.
 
Totally stolen from someone...


Screenshot_20220802_181920.jpg
 
.... It is sad that such an elevating subject's discussion thread has gone that way. And it's not even in Hot Topics where such things often go off topic with a vengeance.
This can easily be remedied if necessary!/MODmode
 
So you still haven't helped by telling me what the current politically correct term for someone previously referred to as 'coloured' is. As someone who appears to be so up to speed on such subjects, surely you know.
Tell you what, as you are interested, go and find out for yourself. (y)

Then the thread can return to football.
 
CONGRATULATIONS NOT ONLY TO THE WHOLE ENGLAND SQUAD BUT ALSO EVERYONE ELSE WHO PLAYED A PART IN THEIR SUCCESS!

The Lionesses squad.jpg
 
.... Difficult and challenging hurdles are faced by any aspiring young female player regardless of their colour. Check out the back stories of many of the current Lionesses.

Btw, Nikita Parris has made it into a number of football squads. She is a very talented player and has succeeded on her merit and her determination to overcome all the hurdles, just like any other player (regardless of colour).

You are sounding like Lewis Hamilton. Being coloured doesn't stop someone succeeding - Apartheid doesn't exist in the UK.

I am very happy indeed to hear that the momentum is driving forward as your reply #76 describes. But surely you understand that no-one can predict the future and it will be whatever it evolves to be. There is nothing "laissez faire" about that as you suggest.

The French language expression leads me to point out to you how many black/coloured women played in the French squad - Quite a lot (I haven't bothered to count). I assume they got there on merit rather than token-ism or was it a conscious effort to include coloured players for the sake of it?

After England, France was my favourite team and they played with great fluid style IMO.

FFS, can't we all just enjoy a game of football rather than overthinking all the race stuff? As already said, the challenges and hurdles aren't exclusively down to a player's race anyway.


You tell me ... "You are sounding like Lewis Hamilton. Being coloured doesn't stop someone succeeding - Apartheid doesn't exist in the UK"

No. aparthied (an extreme example I have to say) doesn't exist and being from an ethnic background won't, generally, stop those with ability in succeeding but their road to success is much harder because what does exist is inequality and better opportunities favour whites. ..in all walks of life in the UK. Just off the top of my head I recall an experiment that someone carried out by responding to job applications. He made them using a regular British name and a name that denoted the applicant wasn't white British. So he applied using the name ..eg John Taylor clearly a white British name. Then he used the surnames ..Eg... Yacubu (Nigerian) then Kumar and Patel. You can guess the outcome. Only John Taylor was invited for interview.

Lewis Hamilton. ? I have no interest in motor racing and have no idea what Hamilton has said in this context. I do know that he's the only black (mixed race) F1racing driver.

How does race and ethnicity affect career choice? A 2005 study by Fouad & Byars-Winston stated this:

"Meta-analysis study revealed that in comparison to their White peers, racial/ethnic minorities did not differ in their skills and confidence in career decision making, but they perceived fewer career opportunities and increased barriers.

2017 report by CIPD [Chartered Institute for Personnel and Development]

There is a significant lack of racial diversity at the top of UK organisations. This is unacceptable in 2017. Addressing racial equality is a societal issue, a moral issue, and a business issue. It must be a priority for business.

BAME employees are significantly more likely to say your identity or background can have an effect on the opportunities you’re given than white British employees, particularly those from an Indian/Pakistani/Bangladeshi background.


Another report. This one by the Open University June 2020.I can only select a couple of comments.

Black athletes’ participation in sport seem to be clustered around just a few sports, such as football, track & field athletics, netball, rugby and basketball. I am yet to see a black British cyclist, rower, jockey or swimmer at elite level. The latter sports are sometimes seen as privileged sports and opportunities are limited to BAME population in covertly and overtly ways. Lack of opportunity for BAME is a real problem.

There is one important aspect here re the England squad in relation to encouraging black/mixed race players. Young girls who cannot see anyone who looks like they do lack heroines to emulate – and that matters. I mentioned another problem and that lies with the scouts.They should asking teams to ID their top players.In addition there's the issue of 'opportunity' .WSL teams having moved mainly to new suburban or semi-rural training facilities away from cities in places like Surrey, Hertfordshire and Cheshire. I don't believe all young black players are disadvantaged and live in inner cities but there's no doubt they face hurdles that whites don't.

Patrick Vieira..current Crystal Palace manger says he is “disturbed” by the lack of black coaches in the Premier League and other top European leagues. He is currently the only BAME manager in the Premier League, following the sacking of Nuno Espirito Santo at Spurs.(Nov last year.) " “It’s a big concern for me and we spend a lot of time thinking about it because it’s something we don’t understand. In almost thirty years of the Premier League, just 10 black managers have been manages of sides in the Premiere League.Black players have always been a part of the success of the Premier League, but there have been few BAME managers.

Here is the last paragraph by the Open University author.

To conclude, we have a long way to go before there is equity across all ethnic groups in sport in the UK. How do we achieve that? The power structures must change by being more inclusive so that they create and implement policies and initiatives that benefit everyone and discriminate against no one. Hopefully, in 10 years, I will revisit this article and write it from a far more positive viewpoint, with the BAME community being present on all levels in the sporting world, and children getting equal access to sports, no matter their background"

I think the above amply demonstrates what I said in my previous post.

You mention the French squad (Women's). Of the 23 players 15 are black/brown.They have a massive ethnic N.African population and in addition their overseas territories and former colonial territories. I've been unable to find out what the policy is for girls football in their schools. I know what it is here. Set out below...last paragraph.

I'll finish with this,Robin.

You say..."But surely you understand that no-one can predict the future and it will be whatever it evolves to be. There is nothing "laissez faire" about that as you suggest"

My point was that if women's football is allowed to continue to develop at the rate it is now then it won't achivee what many hope for and in that sense, yes..you're right 'what will be will be' but that has to challenged and you could could say ''What would have been..had no challenges to the status quo been made.

Here's the reason.

The Department for Education (DfE) has refused to commit to ensuring that girls have equal access to football in schools, despite the Lionesses’ historic victory in the Euros.

Government guidance published by the DfE fails to guarantee that schoolgirls be offered the same football lessons as boys, but says they should instead be offered “comparable activities”.


England's victorious Euro 2022 players have urged the next Prime Minister to give every girl in the nation the chance to follow in their footsteps.

 
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Re the term 'coloured'
I wouldn't worry about it, because nobody seems to be able to agree on whether it is offensive or not. There is even a debate over BAME, whether it "others" Black people.



I agree there are differing opinions but this article is dated 2016. To the best of my knowledge,today black people prefer to be called just that..black. We don't refer to 'brown' people. We say 'Asian'.

Poor Dave . .As he says he only wated to congratulate the team :D

But..threads do take off in all sorts of directions and can often lead to interesting and informative exchanges.I expect it's drawing to a close,though. It looks like everything that can be said, has been said.
 
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I wonder if some Asian or Black women are actively discouraged by the predominantly gay culture in Womens football. Happen to see an article about the England players and their partners, overwhelmingly same sex couples.
Can't imagine that going down well with some cultures and religions.
Wonder why it appears to be so obviously gay when as far as we know the mens game isn't.
 
I wonder if some Asian or Black women are actively discouraged by the predominantly gay culture in Womens football. Happen to see an article about the England players and their partners, overwhelmingly same sex couples.
Can't imagine that going down well with some cultures and religions.
Wonder why it appears to be so obviously gay when as far as we know the mens game isn't.
Yeah! No gay stuff in the mens game. All as straight as a laser line,

(until retirement or strength, or enlightenment...?)
 
I wonder if some Asian or Black women are actively discouraged by the predominantly gay culture in Womens football. Happen to see an article about the England players and their partners, overwhelmingly same sex couples.
Can't imagine that going down well with some cultures and religions.
Wonder why it appears to be so obviously gay when as far as we know the mens game isn't.
..... Words such as "predominantly" and "overwhelmingly" gay state that a majority such as well over 50% exists < Is that actually so? I haven't researched how true or not that is. But one thing I do notice is that the behaviour and culture of ALL the womens football players is that they really don't care about who amongst them is gay or not, or of different race (or nationality at club level) - All that they care about and express is a vibrant and very healthy team spirit. It is that team spirit which contributes so heavily to them winning games and which also makes women's football so enjoyable to watch.

In what way do you think that the women's game "appears to be so obviously gay"? Unless you study the personal lives of the individual players there is no sign of them being gay and none of them are ramming their personal sexual preferences down our throats. I applaud the way that the women players handle themselves publicly - They indisputably love and are dedicated to their sport and they just get on with it.
 
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Yeah! No gay stuff in the mens game. All as straight as a laser line,

(until retirement or strength, or enlightenment...?)
I did say as far as we know.
Can't blame them though with so much hate in the world

At least racial abuse is so much better than it used to be, never want to see that sort of behaviour again.
Many years ago when I played semi serious football we had a superb Black goalkeeper.
He was told by two league clubs "unofficially" that they couldn't take the risk of signing him.
The fear was being so near the crowd he would be abused so much that it would distract him into possibly making errors.
These days he would probably be playing in the top two divisions, great bloke too and would have been a credit to any team
 
I wonder if some Asian or Black women are actively discouraged by the predominantly gay culture in Womens football. Happen to see an article about the England players and their partners, overwhelmingly same sex couples.
Can't imagine that going down well with some cultures and religions.
Wonder why it appears to be so obviously gay when as far as we know the mens game isn't.
Why would that even matter, if it were true or not.?
Neither the men's nor women's teams are selected for their sexuality.
 
Why would that even matter, if it were true or not.?
Neither the men's nor women's teams are selected for their sexuality.
You quoted me then argued something completely different.
I mentioned it in the context of religion and culture not team selection.

Argue away, i won't reply again because I have no more to say on the matter.
 
You quoted me then argued something completely different.
I mentioned it in the context of religion and culture not team selection.

Argue away, i won't reply again because I have no more to say on the matter.
You introduced the red herring not me. Neither religion nor culture have anything to do with women's football, it is at best a side issue.
and certainly nothing to do with the success of the English women's team. which is the subject of this thread.
 
You introduced the red herring not me. Neither religion nor culture have anything to do with women's football, it is at best a side issue.
and certainly nothing to do with the success of the English women's team. which is the subject of this thread.

They have plenty to do with it - Rich is spot on with his theory there, hadnt actually thought of it until I read it. Makes sense. Some of the lack of opportunity will come from the families who do not want their daughters to go down this route.
 
They have plenty to do with it - Rich is spot on with his theory there, hadnt actually thought of it until I read it. Makes sense. Some of the lack of opportunity will come from the families who do not want their daughters to go down this route.
.... Just because a family doesn't want something for their daughter (or son!) doesn't mean that the youngster won't overcome that hurdle. The movie 'Bend it like Beckham' [trailer in Reply #90] demonstrates an excellent example.

Hey! Who said Life had to be easy! People are stronger and better for having to overcome hurdles. Where there is a will there is a way and it is very evident in women's football - Check out the players' back stories.
 
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