Confidence, doubt, existential angst

[sirch]

Here's a couple of photos from today




I "like" them, I shot them, I processed them so I probably ought to like them but I strongly suspect that on this forum and other online platforms they would at best be ignored. Far be it from me to compare myself to Jem Southam or Robert Adams but theirs is the sort of image that my efforts above bring to mind.

Now I'm not doing this for "likes", I shoot what I want and I don't even consider what the internet will think of my photos when I am shooting but I've got a hard drive full of photos that would not have popular appeal and I am wondering what is the point of keeping them, photos are surely there to be seen.

Over the last few days I have thought many times about posting some of these on here but it really does seem pointless, are there other outlets for less crowd pleasing work?

BTW, Happy new year

 

[ancient_mariner]

Chris, it's time you joined me on ello.co. I think your art will be appreciated there. If you need an invite let me know - at one time it was invitation only, but I think it's open now.

 

[Ed Sutton]

Here's a couple of photos from today
View attachment 303974

View attachment 303975

I "like" them, I shot them, I processed them so I probably ought to like them but I strongly suspect that on this forum and other online platforms they would at best be ignored. Far be it from me to compare myself to Jem Southam or Robert Adams but theirs is the sort of image that my efforts above bring to mind.

Now I'm not doing this for "likes", I shoot what I want and I don't even consider what the internet will think of my photos when I am shooting but I've got a hard drive full of photos that would not have popular appeal and I am wondering what is the point of keeping them, photos are surely there to be seen.

Over the last few days I have thought many times about posting some of these on here but it really does seem pointless, are there other outlets for less crowd pleasing work?

Put them in a zine and plug them on Twitter/Insta.

 

[simon ess]

Perhaps you need a little reminder about expectations management.

Like you, I don't really care what anyone else thinks of my photos, but of course that's not completely true, is it?

But I know that the vast majority of my photos, including the ones I like, are of no interest to others.

I bang 'em up on Flickr anyway.

In the last 10 years I have produced maybe a dozen photos that I think are truly worthwhile. That'll do for me.

 

[j07cmt]

I bought a new camera and lens last week, and I'm well and truly disappointed with the results. I'm sure it's just me being super critical though

 

[Fuji Dave]

I'm like you Chris I shoot what I want and if I like them then that's all that counts, plus these two images I like. If they were mine I'd keep them, because when I'd look back on them they'd remind me of that days walk.

 

[ihasa]

I see what you mean about Jem Southam. As much as Gem's shots sometimes look like a tangle of wood, I think there's a fastidiousness with how he composes branches and trees that leave the edge of the frame; in your first shot, the tree on the right feels awkwardly cropped (to me) - I think the same subject matter could be made to sing a bit more, given a bit more deliberation. I do love the textures and colours of winter twigs though!

 

[sirch]

Chris, it's time you joined me on ello.co. I think your art will be appreciated there. If you need an invite let me know - at one time it was invitation only, but I think it's open now.

I looked at ello a while ago, probably following you mentioning it but couldn't muster the enthusiasm for yet another social thingy perhaps its time to give it another go.

Put them in a zine and plug them on Twitter/Insta.

I struggle to produce one zine every 6 months and I feel like a zine needs a theme and at least a nod towards consistent look and feel etc. I also feel that these kind of photos are better viewed larger and that means the costs go up but I suppose that is where the doubt/confidence comes in. I know I would end up with 400 quids worth of fancy books sat on a shelf.

Perhaps you need a little reminder about expectations management.

Like you, I don't really care what anyone else thinks of my photos, but of course that's not completely true, is it?

But I know that the vast majority of my photos, including the ones I like, are of no interest to others.

I bang 'em up on Flickr anyway.

In the last 10 years I have produced maybe a dozen photos that I think are truly worthwhile. That'll do for me.

I suppose I am worn down with banging 'em up here there and elsewhere, don't get me wrong I post a number of other genres of photograph that a few people seem to enjoy but photos like the ones above are the ones I would like to do more of. Like you I have a handful of images that I think are good enough.

I bought a new camera and lens last week, and I'm well and truly disappointed with the results. I'm sure it's just me being super critical though

I'm not disappointed with the photos or the gear, just the audience

I'm like you Chris I shoot what I want and if I like them then that's all that counts, plus these two images I like. If they were mine I'd keep them, because when I'd look back on them they'd remind me of that days walk.

It's the same walk I did yesterday I probably will keep them but I really think photos should be seen

I see what you mean about Jem Southam. As much as Gem's shots sometimes look like a tangle of wood, I think there's a fastidiousness with how he composes branches and trees that leave the edge of the frame; in your first shot, the tree on the right feels awkwardly cropped (to me) - I think the same subject matter could be made to sing a bit more, given a bit more deliberation. I do love the textures and colours of winter twigs though!

I wasn't really looking for crit but thanks anyway and as I said I was quite happy with these, for me they sing loudly enough

 

[JohnFar]

Both are pleasing pictures - as you imply, quiet, complex photos are not always appreciated, but they can really grow on you, unlike the crude golden hour/bright/pop pictures that can produce a 'wow' but rapidly bore. In the first, have you tried a slight crop on the right, so that the curved trunk a fifth of the way in takes the eye round this side?

 

[ancient_mariner]

I'm not disappointed with the photos or the gear, just the audience

 

[Harlequin565]

I know I would end up with 400 quids worth of fancy books sat on a shelf.

Better this than a hard drive that will never see the light of day. The books will still be there long after you're gone and will provide someone with a small insight into who you were. My bookshelf is full of books I've made and once I'm gone, someone will have to at least flick through it before they chuck it in the bin. My hard drive will get a hammer probably.

I'm not disappointed with the photos or the gear, just the audience

are there other outlets for less crowd pleasing work?

I've had a lot of students go through my classes feeling as though they have to do Instagram style photography, or Flickr Explore stuff. I've looked at some of their photos and thought "wtf is this?" - not even being able to find a good thing to say about it, but after they've explained what they were thinking, it transformed my view. Before I was made redundant, the classes that finished my courses went on to continue to meet in local pubs just to share their work and talk about it once a month. They wanted to feel as though the aurience was engaged, and because they were a physical group who sat round a table (often with a pint), in physical proximity to each other, they got that connection and support that no online community could give. Having attended a couple of these as a guest, I found it wonderful to see them all being able to express themselves photographically just how they wanted, without any judgement.

This is what I love about the zine exchanges. From lockdown pinholes, to a trip to America, to people going down holes... There is no judgement. I understand that with (for example) a zine there is a need to tell some sort of story, but that story can be "stuff I didn't want to just fade away"...

Maybe when The Madness subsides we should set up a small Northwest group for regular meetings to have a pint or a coffee and just talk about some of our photographs?

Now I'm not doing this for...

Why are you doing it? And if you don't know right now, then is it best to hang on to those photos your subconscious told you to take? Ready for the point in time when you realise that you *do* know why...

Bah, deleted another couple of paragraphs of junk because I think I'm rambling... Ignore me

 

[ancient_mariner]

Why are you doing it? And if you don't know right now, then is it best to hang on to those photos your subconscious told you to take? Ready for the point in time when you realise that you *do* know why...

It's a very good question. I think many of us NEED to be creative, to find a way to express something non-verbally. But being relational beings in various degrees we also have a need to share and discuss what we do - if that were not true then none of our pictures would leave our hard drives - and to a degree we also need acceptance and approval from those we trust and respect that what we do has value and isn't just farting in the wind*.

*and this is a part of why the 'art' discusion becomes so poisonous.

 

[Craigus]

Hi Chris, this post resonates with me, but perhaps I’m misunderstanding your troubles slightly. Do tell me if I’m wrong, but I get the feeling or vibe that your issue is fundamentally that you are frustrated that people don’t like your photos.

I went through similar feelings a while back with my favoured genre of landscape photography. The sort of images that are popular online and will get you a following in that ‘field’ are not really for me, and I found I could produce images that people liked but it was unfulfilling for me. So I stopped chasing those images and began taking photos for me, which to many people are probably worse. I’m sure that this is a common thing for most people who take photography as a semi-serious hobby. But that transition away from shooting for others needs to be coupled with not caring that they now don’t like your work.

Whilst the images you posted don’t necessarily follow the mould and likely wouldn’t end up getting many likes etc, there could be much more value if they were presented in a certain way. Someone mentioned zines, but some kind of long term project could be enough to keep your enthusiasm up.

Someone mentioned Gem (Jem?) Southam whose photos I find rather dull, but his appeal from what I have seen is the narrative that goes along with his work. Photos that don’t immediately tell a story sometimes need a little help to be appreciated if that is what you want.

 

[fujilover]

That is what outdoors / rural Britain looks like, i live in a rural Wales and near on everything around me looks much like those images.

If you were in California your pictures would look like a sunny paradise.

We here are not blessed with a photogenic landscape so don`t beat yourself up about it, you captures what Britain looks like perfectly well, its not your fault that its not much to look at

 

[sirch]

Maybe when The Madness subsides we should set up a small Northwest group for regular meetings to have a pint or a coffee and just talk about some of our photographs?

Absolutely this but things seems to keep conspiring against us, one day...

Why are you doing it?

Many and varied reasons and I suspect that is part of the problem, a lack of a single objective or focus. It is this that I am motivated to do, recently I have taken photos on the 19, 20, 21, 22, 24, 25, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31 December and 1st January and got some that I actually like.

Ignore me

Never, your insight is much appreciated

It's a very good question. I think many of us NEED to be creative, to find a way to express something non-verbally. But being relational beings in various degrees we also have a need to share and discuss what we do - if that were not true then none of our pictures would leave our hard drives - and to a degree we also need acceptance and approval from those we trust and respect that what we do has value and isn't just farting in the wind*.

Said it better than I could.

but I get the feeling or vibe that your issue is fundamentally that you are frustrated that people don’t like your photos.

No I don't think people don't like my photos. I do think that on the outlets I have for my work people would be very indifferent to this style of photography, I would much rather someone hated them than ignored them, at least that would be an emotional reaction. I know I can shoot stuff that people "like" but that's a bit like microwaving a ready meal, cooking a Heston Blumenthal style mean for just myself just seems a bit pointless.

its not your fault that its not much to look at

There is tons to look at and heart-aching, soul wrenching beauty and nuance, that's the problem it's right in front of us and so many people just hang dog s*** bags from it.

 

[LeeRatters]

You/I/We take photos because we want to. We like/d the scene at the time. We wanted to remember the place/time/event..... The list goes on....

Take your first image. Some shoot what you did. Others would concentrate on the moss. Others on the reeds/grasses coming out of the frozen water. Shapes/patterns of branches. Ice patterns..... That list goes on too...

If you go out often, why don't you start a blog or similar of your walk or day out. Plenty to talk about there & the photos are going to fully relate to the text.

Our YouTube viewing has changed from [for example] N1g3l D4n50n talking about his weekly 'top tips' to people who aren't even really photographers but they vlog their 'days out' or 'wild camping' and it makes for much more interesting content & viewing. I do still like N1g3l's images though If you had a blog page, shared images here, on Instagram with a bio link, plus stories, etc

I'm very much at the stage now where I don't have to take images. I done sunrise at Stockhill Woods the other day, got a few images which I think are going to be worth looking into [they are still on the camera in the bag!] walked a few miles to Ebbor Gorge & back & didn't take a single photo from about 9:30 until midday. I enjoyed myself though. I just like being out. Even if I don't have a fully colour graded, portrait orientation, fashionable image to post on IG

 

[sirch]

I have to say a big thank you for all the comments, I wasn't exepecting this kind of response, I guess I was more justifying to myself why I hadn't bothered posting my recent work here or anywhere else.

 

[sirch]

In the first, have you tried a slight crop on the right

It's a fair point and I guess similar to what @ihasa was intending. As an occasional producer of prints and zines I struggle with non-standard crop formats because they become difficult to lay-out or mount but I guess that shouldn't stop me trying

 

[sirch]

If you go out often, why don't you start a blog or similar of your walk or day out. Plenty to talk about there & the photos are going to fully relate to the text.

All fair points Lee but I often struggle to write a few words about a photo, let alone write a blog, I have tried (non photogrpahy) blogging in the past and I am just not motivated to do it.

I have to say I am more likely to get a photo book printed than blog or vlog.

 

[Ed Sutton]

I suppose I am worn down with banging 'em up here there and elsewhere, don't get me wrong I post a number of other genres of photograph that a few people seem to enjoy but photos like the ones above are the ones I would like to do more of.

It can be dispiriting when you show pictures which you think are good and nobody responds to them. I should know. I've made my share of lead balloon posts on here!

While I certainly have periods questioning why I bother it doesn't stop me putting stuff on-line that people don't respond to, and it certainly doesn't stop me taking the kind of pictures I like to make. Unless you're being paid to take photographs the first person you have to please is yourself. If you can find a wider audience that appreciates them the way you do it's a bonus.

I would still suggest making hard copies of some description, even if it's just to end up as a box of prints or a one-off Blurb book for you to look at in your old age.

Edit: https://www.talkphotography.co.uk/threads/out-of-stone-–-completed-project.593496/#post-6930443

 

[Plain Nev]

Seems to me you're dancing to other people's tunes, when it's you that is making the music. And you don't have to dance.

 

[sirch]

While I certainly have periods questioning why I bother it doesn't stop me putting stuff on-line that people don't respond to, and it certainly doesn't stop me taking the kind of pictures I like to make.

And I really admire your tenacity, seriously. @Harlequin565 recently posted a thread in the film section that included "Most inspirational photograph or photographer on TP" and if it wasn't the film section you would have been in my top 2.

Blurb book for you to look at in your old age

Better get that done quick then

I do get things printed, I just find it a real chore and putting together a book even more so

 

[Harlequin565]

I do get things printed, I just find it a real chore and putting together a book even more so

Do you have Lightroom? The book module is really easy to use. Make a collection in LR, then jump into the book module. I also find it a chore, but that LR plugin makes it much less so once you get round it's "nuanced" behaviour. I believe it even works if you have LR but don't cough up the sub. (You're locked into Blurb sadly, but there is an option to make a pdf which you can send off IIRC)

 

[Nostromo]

Hi Chris
I take photos for me the majority of the time, the other times, the photos are for the wife.
Even the photos I take for the 52 are for me, they are just being view by others too.
Not everyone likes my preferred genre of photography (still life), but I'll keep taking it and sharing it. Everyone likes a positive response to their photos or some positive feedback.
I think most critique on forums is more geared towards technique and the technical aspects of photography, which is fine because subject and style are subjective and are more of a personal thing.
Just keep taking photos for yourself, share them if you like and you already know this, but just enjoy your photography.

 

[sirch]

Do you have Lightroom? The book module is really easy to use.

I think I had seen that the book module just did blurb and abandoned it at that point although it's a good while since I looked may be time for another look

 

[Ed Sutton]

And I really admire your tenacity, seriously.

I do get things printed, I just find it a real chore and putting together a book even more so

You must have noticed how my projects that don't fizzle out drag on interminably - which is my way of avoiding the chore of doing something with the photos and might be what you mistake for tenacity.

 

[sirch]

Hi Chris
I take photos for me the majority of the time, the other times, the photos are for the wife.
Even the photos I take for the 52 are for me, they are just being view by others too.
Not everyone likes my preferred genre of photography (still life), but I'll keep taking it and sharing it. Everyone likes a positive response to their photos or some positive feedback.
I think most critique on forums is more geared towards technique and the technical aspects of photography, which is fine because subject and style are subjective and are more of a personal thing.
Just keep taking photos for yourself, share them if you like and you already know this, but just enjoy your photography.

I enjoy your still life work Dominic, keep it up. Perhaps the thread title was more angsty than I actually feel, I guess it is just about finding the motivation to post stuff.

 

[sirch]

Here's that edit

 

[Adrian64]

Personally I would keep these two photos. As you have stated you like them and that's all that matters. I too find that most people I know don't enjoy my photos, the most frequent excuse (in my experience) being 'there's no people in it'. Personally I prefer the first one with the trees in the frozen pond. The second one I wonder if you could make the rocks stand out a bit better, to create more of a focal point? However, these two photos remind me of many I have taken. If you enjoyed taking them and/or provide a reminder of a fond time then they have achieved their goal.

 

[woof woof]

Here's a couple of photos from today...

I "like" them, I shot them, I processed them so I probably ought to like them but I strongly suspect that on this forum and other online platforms they would at best be ignored. Far be it from me to compare myself to Jem Southam or Robert Adams but theirs is the sort of image that my efforts above bring to mind...

Maybe try not to care too much what others think?

I take a lot of pictures of people, places and things that mean something to me and when I look at them I make a connection to the place, the time and who I was with and that all matters to me. I sometimes struggle to understand why some people take pictures of birds in flight, airplanes etc until I remember that although these things hold no interest at all for for me they matter to them. Plus of course I/you/we can only take pictures of what's in front of us and if all we have is a frozen pond and some trees in the local woods then that's what we shoot not the Wanaka tree (or whatever it is.)

They're nice pictures. Look at them and feel the connection. Be happy

 

[Solo man]

Here's that edit

View attachment 304014

For what it's worth, I don't like this crop I much prefer the original.

 

[sirch]

Maybe try not to care too much what others think?

On the one hand (and as much as most people can) I don't care what other people think but on the other hand my concern was/is more about taking photos that no one will see or perhaps more accurately that people couldn't care less about. To badly paraphrase - if a camera shutter is clicked in the forest but no one comments on the photo was the photo actually taken.

I know some people are happy to sit in their bedroom and play guitar to themselves but if I did play guitar I guess I would want to play a gig or something otherwise the practice would seem a bit pointless for me

 

[Harlequin565]

I know some people are happy to sit in their bedroom and play guitar to themselves

When everyone goes out, I take the guitar out that everyone says I never play and I bounce around the living room, play (badly) and sing my head off. No one would ever know (apart from the neighbours who I guarantee hate it lol). Did it happen? Absolutely. Did I get enjoyment out of it? Definitely. Was it any good? Probably not, but I don't care.

I think it's about finding the right outlet. And perhaps this forum, or a book, or a zine, or a camera club isn't the right outlet. For me, teaching is my outlet, as is podcasting. I have an audience for both that keep coming back so I must be doing something right. On TP, the ShowUsYerFilmShots thread is an outlet, as is the FPoTY. The Contact Sheets thread. I'm trying a 52 this year - both to see if I can complete one as well as trying it as a way of expression. In my mind, I'm thinking of doing a book on it (just for me).

You're a talented photographer Chris. I thought the Tin Can Selfies was a genius idea. I'm sure there are more ideas in that head. Try something. If it doesn't work, try something else The only thing you should really give up on if you fail, is sky diving.

 

[Ed Sutton]

"I don't like work - no man does - but I like what is in the work - the chance to find yourself. Your own reality - for yourself, not for others - what no other man can ever know. They can only see the mere show, and never can tell what it really means." - Joseph Conrad - Heart of Darkness

Or as Ed Smith said on Test Match Special, "When you start playing cricket for other people you have lost the point of playing cricket."

(If anyone wants to listen to my 'bedroom' noodlings I can supply a Souncloud link. )

 

[fujilover]

Has it not always been that way with photography, what is in the photo counts for so much when it comes to views / comments / interest.

I could take two photos with identical gear, settings, angle, focal length, time of day.

But one of them is of a ugly Crow.
The other is of a rare multicolored bird that just laded in the same exact spot.

The ugly Crow will be lucky to get a few views and unlikely to get an comments.
The other will have many views and many comments.

It is shallow that the great masses like eye catching pretty photos and cant appreciate much else but that is how things are.

 

[hashcake]

I bought a new camera and lens last week, and I'm well and truly disappointed with the results. I'm sure it's just me being super critical though
p


In 2008 I bought a Canon 450D, put it in auto mode and starting shooting in jpeg.
I thought the photos I was taken at the time were quite good until I joined this forum.
Once I had a better understanding of photography I started seeing a better results and I couldn't believe how wrong I was at first.
Rome wasn't built in a day so learning how to use the camera can take a while.
The help and advice I gained from here was just fantastic and I quickly learned that there is no such thing as a stupid question.
I found that seasoned photographers here were more than willing to help.
Don't be affraid to ask questions on here as a lot of people are happy to help.

 

[hashcake]

Here's a couple of photos from today

I "like" them, I shot them, I processed them so I probably ought to like them but I strongly suspect that on this forum and other online platforms they would at best be ignored. Far be it from me to compare myself to Jem Southam or Robert Adams but theirs is the sort of image that my efforts above bring to mind.

Now I'm not doing this for "likes", I shoot what I want and I don't even consider what the internet will think of my photos when I am shooting but I've got a hard drive full of photos that would not have popular appeal and I am wondering what is the point of keeping them, photos are surely there to be seen.

Over the last few days I have thought many times about posting some of these on here but it really does seem pointless, are there other outlets for less crowd pleasing work?

BTW, Happy new year

Social media seems to be the best way of getting people’s opinions without any critique as such.

Many a time I've been told that a photo I have taken is good even though at times I tend to disagree.
Just like all forms of art, photography it is subjective and peoples opinions will always vary.
In my early days I took similar photos to yours (I’m not saying yours are bad) and when I asked on here what I could do to improve them feedback I received was very helpful.
First and foremost, you have to be happy with the end results and for me personally, I prefer the opinions of people in general.
Another hobby of mine is making music and I’ve learned a lot about different production techniques.
The feedback I’ve received from people has been generally good but a good music producer will always find a way to improve a track.
When I look at photos I have taken over the years and seen how I’ve improved over time, it always make me feel proud of myself.

 

[ancient_mariner]

I looked at ello a while ago, probably following you mentioning it but couldn't muster the enthusiasm for yet another social thingy perhaps its time to give it another go.

Ello is curious - your work would get a lot of love, and there are some great toggers on there, but no-one offers critique. It's an unwritten rule not to input on others work, and when I've tried (suggesting it might be good to deal with dust bunnies, halos etc) it was not welcome. Lots of artists, no craftsmen (especially with the influx of Tumblr refugees last year) and many curators.

 

[woof woof]

On the one hand (and as much as most people can) I don't care what other people think but on the other hand my concern was/is more about taking photos that no one will see or perhaps more accurately that people couldn't care less about. To badly paraphrase - if a camera shutter is clicked in the forest but no one comments on the photo was the photo actually taken.

I know some people are happy to sit in their bedroom and play guitar to themselves but if I did play guitar I guess I would want to play a gig or something otherwise the practice would seem a bit pointless for me

I look at is as my hobby and whilst it might be wonderful if everyone liked my photography I think one worry could be that I/we may change to gain more likes or praise. I suppose it depends in if you think change is a good thing or not.

I take a lot of pictures like the ones you've posted because that is the sort of scene I see a lot in places that mean something to me so whist they may not be striking they're still therefore worthwhile. What to do in your situation though? Maybe you could think about telling more of a story? Maybe a short sequence of photos could add up to a greater whole? Either that or play with perspective and composition if you don't think they're attractive enough in isolation.

Good luck with it

 

[sirch]

Ello is curious - your work would get a lot of love, and there are some great toggers on there, but no-one offers critique. It's an unwritten rule not to input on others work, and when I've tried (suggesting it might be good to deal with dust bunnies, halos etc) it was not welcome. Lots of artists, no craftsmen (especially with the influx of Tumblr refugees last year) and many curators.

I signed up last night, the first thing I noticed that on my do-not-track, heavily ad-blocked default browser it just showed a blank page, no errors, no warnings. It worked OK on a less protected browser but the notion that they will only share work if they can track you is a bit off-putting TBH. I have uploaded one image and I'll see how it goes...