Car buyers should have 'long, hard think' about diesel

[Byker28i]

Shell have done about 10 chargers and given up by the look of it. Disappointing effort frankly.

Instavolt and polar are the only two that are really getting on with installations.

Wales is a basket case still.

Nearest fast charger is at the services by Swansea. My house there is a terrace on a main street that I can't run a cable over - and has one hour parking restriction outside during the day.
So this also will be an issue for those in towns/cities. I don't know what the solution is here. Induction charging?, but then you'd have to guarantee you could park outside your house...

Was the Shell 10 charge points done as a trial?

 

[Byker28i]

Doesn't look like shell prices were far off looking at the cost of Polar and Instavolt

 

[Byker28i]

An interesting report from the Guardian, taking into account the whole cost of EV power
https://www.theguardian.com/football/ng-interactive/2017/dec/25/how-green-are-electric-cars

Depending on where you live, how the energy is generated, then in real terms the cost per km is about 2/3rds that of a fossil fuel car, ignoring any costs of making and disposing of the vehicle.

 

[wyx087]

and the person who posted the article

Smart, attack the messenger. Just like how scientists warning about acid rain, smoking and global warming gets attacked on mass media outside of scientific peer-review process by established industry funded media pieces.

Tesla ended their free unlimited supercharging referral scheme on 16th September, ecotricity stopped their free recharge at service stations a couple of years ago
Shell are putting in chargers that are 49p per Kw. https://www.shell.co.uk/motorist/welcome-to-shell-recharge.html
A 4-5 miles per Kw, thats geting on the cost of a similar size economical petrol/diesel car

Majority of your energy doesn't come from those sources, those are considered 50kW en-route charging. Majority should come from 7kW destination charging. Does it not make sense to be required to pay more for infrastructure that delivers the power over 8x faster?

At my E7 rate of 8p/kWh, it had cost me less than £200 to drive 10k miles over the last year I've had my Leaf. How far does £200 of fossil fuel get you in ICE car? 2000 miles?

Instavolt haven't turned on payments yet, they are still free: https://www.speakev.com/threads/instavolt-free-charging-in-may.114697/page-6#post-2361280

 

[Mr Bump]

More likely a result of being part of the company that cheated the emissions tests. Porsche actually suspended production of diesel variants of their cars earlier in the year.

spin it any way you like, more companies out there will already be making the same decisions, diesel is dead it has no future.

 

[Mr Bump]

I'm sure it was in the media way back in March about Porsche and many other manufacturers no longer doing diesel. In fact I think Toyota even said that come December they would no longer sell any diesels in Europe.

Honda do not appear to be ruling out diesels completely just yet, perhaps because of some impending tech which could almost wipe out particulates. But then if everyone else does then I suspect it may be hard to find diesel at the pumps in the future.

pretty much spot on with that the smart money will just walk away.

 

[nilagin]

JAG are going down and the mismanagement of the company and its rubbish forward thinking will be to blame.

https://www.coventrytelegraph.net/news/coventry-news/jaguar-land-rover-profit-15167154.amp
Still think Jaguar are going down?

 

[Gaz J]

spin it any way you like, more companies out there will already be making the same decisions, diesel is dead it has no future.

So what’s your answer to the increase in CO2 that’s already happening and will increase even more when all these diesels are gone? After all CO2 is killing the planet.

 

[nilagin]

spin it any way you like, more companies out there will already be making the same decisions, diesel is dead it has no future.

Porsche didn't make their own diesel engines, they were Audi units which were part of the VW emissions scandal. Rather than have the embarassment of having to fit derated engines to meet the real world emissions, they probably decided it was easier and much cheaper to drop what is a low selling vehicle anyway.
As for other manufacturers making the same decision, PSA have just made the decision to fit their own diesel engines to Vauxhall/Opel cars not cease production of diesel cars.

 

[Mr Bump]

https://www.coventrytelegraph.net/news/coventry-news/jaguar-land-rover-profit-15167154.amp
Still think Jaguar are going down?

Not in the UK there now, selling a lot of big ase SUVs to USA and China but UK sales declining rapidly.

While UK new car sales declined by 16 per cent in March – with demand for diesels continuing to plummet – the West Midlands'-based luxury car maker's figures were even worse, falling by more than a quarter.

The company, which makes its engines at the i54 site in Wolverhampton and its cars at Solihull, Castle Bromwich and Halewood, has already cut production this year with planned shutdowns at some plants.

Last month, sales of Jaguars were down 29 per cent on March 2017, at 6,797, while Land Rover and Range Rover sales were down 26 per cent at 16,655. That's a drop in UK sales of more than 8,600 cars.

 

[nilagin]

I'm sure it was in the media way back in March about Porsche and many other manufacturers no longer doing diesel. In fact I think Toyota even said that come December they would no longer sell any diesels in Europe.

Honda do not appear to be ruling out diesels completely just yet, perhaps because of some impending tech which could almost wipe out particulates. But then if everyone else does then I suspect it may be hard to find diesel at the pumps in the future.

Even when new diesels are no longer available, the fuel will still need to be readily available for existing owners.

 

[nilagin]

Not in the UK there now, selling a lot of big ase SUVs to USA and China but UK sales declining rapidly.

While UK new car sales declined by 16 per cent in March – with demand for diesels continuing to plummet – the West Midlands'-based luxury car maker's figures were even worse, falling by more than a quarter.

The company, which makes its engines at the i54 site in Wolverhampton and its cars at Solihull, Castle Bromwich and Halewood, has already cut production this year with planned shutdowns at some plants.

Last month, sales of Jaguars were down 29 per cent on March 2017, at 6,797, while Land Rover and Range Rover sales were down 26 per cent at 16,655. That's a drop in UK sales of more than 8,600 cars.

As I keep telling you, ALL UK car sales are down.

 

[Byker28i]

Smart, attack the messenger. Just like how scientists warning about acid rain, smoking and global warming gets attacked on mass media outside of scientific peer-review process by established industry funded media pieces.


Majority of your energy doesn't come from those sources, those are considered 50kW en-route charging. Majority should come from 7kW destination charging. Does it not make sense to be required to pay more for infrastructure that delivers the power over 8x faster?

At my E7 rate of 8p/kWh, it had cost me less than £200 to drive 10k miles over the last year I've had my Leaf. How far does £200 of fossil fuel get you in ICE car? 2000 miles?

Instavolt haven't turned on payments yet, they are still free: https://www.speakev.com/threads/instavolt-free-charging-in-may.114697/page-6#post-2361280

Nope not attacking anyone, although I've been attacked several times in this thread, yet I'm the person hovering waiting for the EV to become usable to me.
Instavolt costs come direct from their website: All InstaVolt chargers cost just £0.35 per kWh to use. There’s no connection fee and no monthly membership fee. Pay only for what you use. That’s it!
https://instavolt.co.uk/rates/

Majority of the UK generating power is from fossil fuels
Most of the UK’s electricity is produced by burning fossil fuels, mainly natural gas (42% in 2016) and coal (9% in 2016). A very small amount is produced from other fuels (3.1% in 2016). 21% of our electricity comes from nuclear reactors, Renewable technologies use natural energy to make electricity. Fuel sources include wind, wave, marine, hydro, biomass and solar. It made up 24.5% of electricity generated in 2016 - this will rise as the UK aims to meet its EU target of generating 30% of its electricity from renewable sources by 2020.
https://www.energy-uk.org.uk/energy-industry/electricity-generation.html

Or you could just look at the current live production
https://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/

 

[Mr Bump]

As I keep telling you, ALL UK car sales are down.

Jag are doing worse than everybody else in the UK and will continue to dive as 90% of there crates are diesel fuelled.

 

[Byker28i]

At my E7 rate of 8p/kWh, it had cost me less than £200 to drive 10k miles over the last year I've had my Leaf. How far does £200 of fossil fuel get you in ICE car? 2000 miles?

So you've worked that out on 4 miles per Kw, what rate charger do you have at home and when does your economy 7 run from/to - what hours?
4Kw charger at home gives you 16 miles an hour on charge, so an overnight charge is easily doable for local journeys provided you have somewhere to plug the car in - the full 7 hours?
but at that rate you'd need 12.5 hours charge for a 200 mile range (the newer cars), so you'd need the 7Kw charger at home...

But that still doesn't work for those terrace houses without a driveway, who can't guarentee parkign outside their house.

10,000 miles at 4miles per Kw is a yearly usage of 2500Kw. at 8p per Kw on economy 7 thats the £200, using instavolt at 35p per mile thats £875
10,000 at 45miles per gallon is 220 gallons (ish) which at £5.95 a gallon of diesel is £1300 (ish) so still makes financial sense, provided we can have the range and charging points (and the second hand cars are cheap enough - or everyone actually buys on PCP or lease)

Infrastructure - we need infrastructure for this to take off...

 

[wyx087]

So you've worked that out on 4 miles per Kw, what rate charger do you have at home and when does your economy 7 run from/to - what hours?
4Kw charger at home gives you 16 miles an hour on charge, so an overnight charge is easily doable for local journeys provided you have somewhere to plug the car in - the full 7 hours?
but at that rate you'd need 12.5 hours charge for a 200 mile range (the newer cars), so you'd need the 7Kw charger at home...

But that still doesn't work for those terrace houses without a driveway, who can't guarentee parkign outside their house.
Infrastructure - we need infrastructure for this to take off...

I hadn't worked out anything. I am £160 in debt to my energy company, my direct debit amount hasn't changed in the last 2 years. I had clocked up 10k on the Leaf. So I said 10k miles costed me less than £200. This cost comes from actual real life usage.

My last generation Leaf can only charge at 3.3kW. My E7 hours run from 1:30 to 8:30 BST. I set it to charge from 1:40 and I've always had enough charge by 6am when I sometimes leave, if I drive it hard the day before, it would be charging but at 99%; otherwise it would have finished charging. Meaning my summer commutes of 60 miles uses around 14kWh and it is all recovered within 5 hours.

The charger on my house is a 7kW charger. As you said, it can recharge almost 200 miles of range over E7 hours. More than enough for all my needs within a day. 7kW is the standard home charger speed, unless you have 3-phase, then you can get 22kW installed. I personally don't see any point for faster charging, the car is parked overnight, it has over 12 hours to charge what's the point of putting more load on the grid than necessary?

For driveway owners, public infrastructure isn't needed. Only long distance driving needs en-route rapid charging infrastructure. All local driving should be charged at home, during low demand periods, hopefully managed by a smart charger controlled by the grid.

 

[nilagin]

Jag are doing worse than everybody else in the UK and will continue to dive as 90% of there crates are diesel fuelled.

90%? So you are saying they don't offer petrol variants for their vehicles. You really need to do some research, there is more s*** coming from your keyboard than a euro3 diesel tailpipe.

 

[wyx087]

Nope not attacking anyone, although I've been attacked several times in this thread, yet I'm the person hovering waiting for the EV to become usable to me.
Instavolt costs come direct from their website: All InstaVolt chargers cost just £0.35 per kWh to use. There’s no connection fee and no monthly membership fee. Pay only for what you use. That’s it!
https://instavolt.co.uk/rates/

Majority of the UK generating power is from fossil fuels
Most of the UK’s electricity is produced by burning fossil fuels, mainly natural gas (42% in 2016) and coal (9% in 2016). A very small amount is produced from other fuels (3.1% in 2016). 21% of our electricity comes from nuclear reactors, Renewable technologies use natural energy to make electricity. Fuel sources include wind, wave, marine, hydro, biomass and solar. It made up 24.5% of electricity generated in 2016 - this will rise as the UK aims to meet its EU target of generating 30% of its electricity from renewable sources by 2020.
https://www.energy-uk.org.uk/energy-industry/electricity-generation.html

Or you could just look at the current live production
https://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/

Apologies on my overreaction to your tongue-in-cheek comment.
I'm just reporting experience of actual InstaVolt user's experience. At 35p/kWh for the contactless payment convenience and guaranteed no PHEV, InstaVolt is an excellent charging provider.
(PHEV uses type 2 port but can only charge at 3kW. Type 2 cable are on most 50kW rapid chargers to accommodate the few 43kW Renault Zoe Q. Uninformed PHEV driver may block a charger resource by charging at 3/50th of its capable speed)

Think of the grid as a capacitor. Energy is drawn from it at similar rate it is charged. I draw energy from it and I pay for 100% renewable sources to replenish my usage. Most EV drivers do this and many companies have EV tariff, combining lower E7 prices with 100% renewable tariff.

My wording on energy source is regarding where and how you recharge. You wouldn't rely on 50kW rapid chargers, it is designed as en-route charging. Many en-route chargers have overstay fee: Tesla charges 50p/minute of overstay, Polar charges £5 after 90min. En-route rapid chargers are like motorway petrol stations, you wouldn't park there and wonder off. It is slightly more expensive so you also wouldn't depend on it as your main source of energy. So calculating cost to run EV based on rapid charger prices are very misleading. It's like only refuelling at motorway service stations, you pay for the location and convenience.

 

[Mr Bump]

90%? So you are saying they don't offer petrol variants for their vehicles. You really need to do some research, there is more s*** coming from your keyboard than a euro3 diesel tailpipe.

no one wants a petrol powered land crusher in the UK, what they offer is irrelevant its you that is deluded.

 

[nilagin]

no one wants a petrol powered land crusher in the UK, what they offer is irrelevant its you that is deluded.

I will repeat, the number of people now buying SUV's has been increasing for a few years now. Plus there is more profit in an SUV, than a family hatchback, so sales figures don't have to be high. That is why JLR managed to make such huge profits in the last tax year.
Just face it, you know sweet FA about cars, manufacturing, car sales or emissions.


I take it you have had a bad experience with a Jag, hence your obvious hatred.

 

[Byker28i]

I hadn't worked out anything. I am £160 in debt to my energy company, my direct debit amount hasn't changed in the last 2 years. I had clocked up 10k on the Leaf. So I said 10k miles costed me less than £200. This cost comes from actual real life usage.

My last generation Leaf can only charge at 3.3kW. My E7 hours run from 1:30 to 8:30 BST. I set it to charge from 1:40 and I've always had enough charge by 6am when I sometimes leave, if I drive it hard the day before, it would be charging but at 99%; otherwise it would have finished charging. Meaning my summer commutes of 60 miles uses around 14kWh and it is all recovered within 5 hours.

The charger on my house is a 7kW charger. As you said, it can recharge almost 200 miles of range over E7 hours. More than enough for all my needs within a day. 7kW is the standard home charger speed, unless you have 3-phase, then you can get 22kW installed. I personally don't see any point for faster charging, the car is parked overnight, it has over 12 hours to charge what's the point of putting more load on the grid than necessary?

For driveway owners, public infrastructure isn't needed. Only long distance driving needs en-route rapid charging infrastructure. All local driving should be charged at home, during low demand periods, hopefully managed by a smart charger controlled by the grid.

TA - good to get some real usage examples.
I was working figures on current battery technology of 4 miles per Kw charge, which your annual usage/bill seems to work out to also.
7 hours of charge overnight on 7Kw rate doesn't charge the new 64Kw battery packs, so another couple of hours on normal rate for a full charge wouldn't be too bad (or probably usual).

I checked my provider, you're being done - my E7 rate is 7.1p (15.2p outside hours) against 12.6p per Kw for normal electricity.

Again, EV works well if you have a transport story that fits the current capabilities

 

[Byker28i]

Think of the grid as a capacitor. Energy is drawn from it at similar rate it is charged. I draw energy from it and I pay for 100% renewable sources to replenish my usage. Most EV drivers do this and many companies have EV tariff, combining lower E7 prices with 100% renewable tariff.

solar panels on the roof?

 

[wyx087]

solar panels on the roof?

You bet

My rate is something like 8.0p/kWh E7, rest of the time is 14.something during the day. Before EV, solar + E7 still didn't make sense because majority usage is between sunset and going to sleep. Now EV consumes most electricity, so E7 + solar makes a lot of sense.

Home battery storage is the next step. But so far, all available solutions seem very first-generation, zero integration with the grid or other appliances. So I'm waiting 6 more years for my solar inverter to reach end of its warranty then re-evaluate the market. Hopefully there will be a single inverter/bat-charger solution combined with EV V2G (vehicle to grid) capability, allowing me to use Leaf to expand my home battery when parked at home
(yes, my released in 2013 Leaf is compatible with emerging technology. Old EV doesn't magically become obsolete)



Speak of the future. When I replace my Skoda diesel with an EV. I don't actually plan on installing a second home charger until it is a proper smart charger (as above). I recently had an external domestic 13amp socket installed, it was done to same 40amp standard as my EV charger. So I can charge 2 cars at the same time. But the main reason for domestic socket right now is to be able to power a 2kW heater in my Skoda diesel car during winter. The pre-heating in EV are so nice during winter, last year I never once had to scrap ice from my EV, just unplug, get in and go. I don't want to loose preheating during days I had to take the ICE car.
#firstworldproblems

 

[Byker28i]

Tesla do a very nice battery wall that consumes little space but is pricey, but then solar panel installation cost has plummeted, so I guess theres that, or the other route is to plough the daytime generation into the grid with the payback offsetting the cost of the overnight charging. It's another initial £6-7K for the solar panels to add now to the cost of the first EV but makes sense seeing as the household electricity usage will go up.

 

[nilagin]

But the main reason for domestic socket right now is to be able to power a 2kW heater in my Skoda diesel car during winter. The pre-heating in EV are so nice during winter, last year I never once had to scrap ice from my EV, just unplug, get in and go. I don't want to loose preheating during days I had to take the ICE car.
#firstworldproblems

I haven't had to scrape windows since 1991.

 

[wyx087]

I haven't had to scrape windows since 1991.

Is your cabin warm when you get in the car to start the engine?

I checked, it took my diesel car 10min of driving in city traffic for the cabin to warm up to desired temperature.

 

[nilagin]

Is your cabin warm when you get in the car to start the engine?

I checked, it took my diesel car 10min of driving in city traffic for the cabin to warm up to desired temperature.

It sure isn't cold. All my cars (apart from present car) since 2000 have had heated seats and I have never used them.

 

[neil_g]

spin it any way you like, more companies out there will already be making the same decisions, diesel is dead it has no future.

Not really. Company cars requiring long range and hauling capacity are certainly in no hurry to switch from diesel.

My new euro6 company has been delayed 8 weeks now due to demand.

Haulage too, cant see that changing soon.

 

[wyx087]

It's another initial £6-7K for the solar panels to add now to the cost of the first EV but makes sense seeing as the household electricity usage will go up.

Just make you aware, unless you have a massive south facing roof size of a small library. It won't be cheaper charging your car off your solar panels, especially 7kW cars.

I have E-W facing roof, my peak capacity is 2.8kW but peak generation is 2kW. The car charges at 3.3kW, so I'll still be drawing from the grid. Anything below 1.5kW solar generation means it's cheaper to charge during E7 hours.

So it's not an added cost to EV ownership. It's just a linked interest that combines nicely.

It sure isn't cold. All my cars (apart from present car) since 2000 have had heated seats and I have never used them.

It was 4c this morning. I had set preheating for this morning, it felt like my car was warmer than my house. Makes early morning getting out of the house easier, mentally.

Car camping also become a viable option with EV's. Just park up and set the climate control to a comfortable temperature.

 

[neil_g]

Is that not the economic equivalent of leaving the kettle on boil constantly?

All that wasted electric?

 

[Byker28i]

Solar Panels make sense as most of the charging will be done at night, so you offset the cost with the payback tariff. I have a large south facing garden/ roof and double garage so easily enough space for the full 4kw number of panels.
If you're going the EV route, then making that initial one off £7k investment as part of the purchase makes sense as you'll be increasing your electricity bill by 2500Kw a year for your £10k miles, since we're talking planet and cost saving.

 

[Byker28i]

Is that not the economic equivalent of leaving the kettle on boil constantly?

All that wasted electric?

I put a fan heater in my cars for 10-15 mins every morning when it's icy as you start with a warm car before the engine gets upto temp. Also as the glass is warm the screen doesn't refreeze as you drive.

 

[nilagin]

It was 4c this morning. I had set preheating for this morning, it felt like my car was warmer than my house. Makes early morning getting out of the house easier, mentally.

It can be sub zero and my car still doesn't feel cold inside. Perhaps your cars are just poorly insulated.

 

[nilagin]

I put a fan heater in my cars for 10-15 mins every morning when it's icy as you start with a warm car before the engine gets upto temp. Also as the glass is warm the screen doesn't refreeze as you drive.

Refreezing screen, what's that? Ford's aren't the only cars with heated front screens now you know.
4°C and below and my front and rear screens switch themselves on as soon as the engine is started and front screen is clear in about 1 minute even if iced up.

 

[nilagin]

Emissions regulations for passenger cars and proof that Euro 6 diesels are very close to Euro 6 petrols and not as bad as some are making out.

 

[LASTOLITE]

Not in the UK there now, selling a lot of big ase SUVs to USA and China but UK sales declining rapidly.

While UK new car sales declined by 16 per cent in March – with demand for diesels continuing to plummet – the West Midlands'-based luxury car maker's figures were even worse, falling by more than a quarter.

The company, which makes its engines at the i54 site in Wolverhampton and its cars at Solihull, Castle Bromwich and Halewood, has already cut production this year with planned shutdowns at some plants.

Last month, sales of Jaguars were down 29 per cent on March 2017, at 6,797, while Land Rover and Range Rover sales were down 26 per cent at 16,655. That's a drop in UK sales of more than 8,600 cars.

Using Brexit to exit the UK, but its not because of that is it, Good time to blame the dog for that awful smell......

 

[wyx087]

I put a fan heater in my cars for 10-15 mins every morning when it's icy as you start with a warm car before the engine gets upto temp. Also as the glass is warm the screen doesn't refreeze as you drive.

I'm planning to do that this winter if I were to use ICE for my commute, on days wife wants to take baby to activities.

It can be sub zero and my car still doesn't feel cold inside. Perhaps your cars are just poorly insulated.

Perhaps people would like to enjoy the nicer things in life. Rather than sit in a frost covered car and pray to the ICE gods that is Ford.

Emissions regulations for passenger cars and proof that Euro 6 diesels are very close to Euro 6 petrols and not as bad as some are making out.

But most Euro 6 cars don't meet the emission standards though. 100% doesn't meet any standard when the engine is cold.

Is there regulation on cold engine emissions? How much extra toxic emission is a cold engine chucking out to protect itself? Does the regulation cover winter grade diesel? Does the new real world emission test record cold start emissions or only absolute optimum operating conditions? Why does ICE cars stink when engine is cold?

 

[Byker28i]

Refreezing screen, what's that? Ford's aren't the only cars with heated front screens now you know.
4°C and below and my front and rear screens switch themselves on as soon as the engine is started and front screen is clear in about 1 minute even if iced up.

Not all of us have the latest. I have a 21 year old TVR or a 8 year old MX-5. I put the heated seats on this morning...

 

[PaulF]

Is your cabin warm when you get in the car to start the engine?

I checked, it took my diesel car 10min of driving in city traffic for the cabin to warm up to desired temperature.

You either judge a desired temp to be that of a volcano or that car has a fault.

Less than 3 minutes in my diesel. I only ever use the heated seats for a few minutes.

 

[Cobra]

Car camping also become a viable option with EV's. Just park up and set the climate control to a comfortable temperature.

Now, I wonder where that "Technology" came from
Ah yes, its those horrible diesel trucks with sleeper cabs have had that for at 30 years to my knowledge and probably before that to.