Car buyers should have 'long, hard think' about diesel

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The extra 18" of crumple zone got stuck straight out into traffic so the myopic driver (safe in his steel cage) could see what was about to take the front off his extension...
 
The hidden cost of ICE is the regular engine maintenance. It doesn't appear at the pumps so are often forgotten. But in actual fact it is a major running cost. Of course there are maintenance-free cars, my previous Mercedes C class had timing chain and sealed gearbox. But the savings are lost at the pumps due to poorer MPG figures.
(automatics only, I don't want to deal with the clutch)

MatBin said:
You have made a decision for you but please dont bang on about how everyone should make the same decision, one size doesnt fit all and until they come up with a comparable EV there isnt going to be the rush to EV that you want.
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You have made a decision for you but please dont bang on about how everyone should make the same decision, one size doesnt fit all and until they come up with a cheap to run AND fun to drive ICE.

You just voiced your observation and reasoning in #1301. I was just voicing an observation I recently made, in the same manner as your post. There's no implication anyone should "rush to EV" as you seems to think my posts are about.

Funny how everyone posts their own individual use-cases of the car (usually extreme cases or twice in a year uses) is unsuitable for EV, while at the same time if I post something positive regarding EV, it's shot down as forcing people to buy EV.
 
wuyanxu said:
So how often do you do your 350 miles trip? How often do you drive more than 100 miles in one day? Might be cheaper to rent an ICE car for your long trip.

All I know is that I'll never be buying another fossil car ever again. Not only I've never had to consider recharging the EV on my daily use, because everyday I begin with a full charge. On my EV, I've been getting 2.5p/mile, compared to 10p/mile of fuel in my 55mpg diesel. That 10p is not including engine oil, timing belt and gearbox oil costs (£75 every 10k, £500 every 5 years, £180 every 40k => 20p/mile of ICE maintenance costs).
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Depreciation on EV's is still greater and will even up the cost per mile.
 
wuyanxu said:
The hidden cost of ICE is the regular engine maintenance. It doesn't appear at the pumps so are often forgotten. But in actual fact it is a major running cost. Of course there are maintenance-free cars, my previous Mercedes C class had timing chain and sealed gearbox. But the savings are lost at the pumps due to poorer MPG figures.
(automatics only, I don't want to deal with the clutch)


You have made a decision for you but please dont bang on about how everyone should make the same decision, one size doesnt fit all and until they come up with a cheap to run AND fun to drive ICE.

You just voiced your observation and reasoning in #1301. I was just voicing an observation I recently made, in the same manner as your post. There's no implication anyone should "rush to EV" as you seems to think my posts are about.

Funny how everyone posts their own individual use-cases of the car (usually extreme cases or twice in a year uses) is unsuitable for EV, while at the same time if I post something positive regarding EV, it's shot down as forcing people to buy EV.
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Don't talk rubbish, anyone who is in the position to purchase an EV (they're not particularly cheap) has most likely had many years of ICE car ownership and the regular maintenance cost are well known and anything but hidden!
I hear a few Tesla owners mention their insurance has gone up significantly but 'that was to be expected'. Expected by who precisely? That may count as a "hidden' cost as no EV supporter seems to highlight it.
With hindsight, looking at the repair costs of a Tesla it's no real surprise the insurance would be high. Oh, and Tesla don't like, or allow really, third party maintenance so your kind of tied to them for the life of the car.
Use a Tesla as a taxi, aurgably one of the best emmision benifits in a city, and Tesla invalidate the warranty due to the higher than average mileage.

Not sure what Nissan's stance is on third party maintenance or use as a taxi with regards to warranty, perhaps you may have better knowledge on that subject.
 
PaulF said:
Not sure what Nissan's stance is on third party maintenance or use as a taxi with regards to warranty, perhaps you may have better knowledge on that subject.
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I could only comment that Leafs are in service as Taxis all over Amsterdam. That may suggest that it is workable.
 
nilagin said:
Depreciation on EV's is still greater and will even up the cost per mile.
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I beg to differ.
On the higher end of the market, I challenge you to find a sub-£30k second hand Tesla, back in 2013 they were selling for £60-70k. £50% depreciation for a 5 year old car? Find a similarly priced ICE car that still retain 50% of its value 5 years later.
On the lower end of the market, my Leaf was bought for £9100 11 months ago, same year same trim is still asking £10k+ at dealers right now. I am confident I can sell this car for more than £4500 (50% in 3 years, average motoring depreciation) in 2 years time, when my balloon payment of £4000 is due.

PaulF said:
Not sure what Nissan's stance is on third party maintenance or use as a taxi with regards to warranty, perhaps you may have better knowledge on that subject.
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Sorry, no idea on warranty aspect. But there is a Cornwall Taxi company that use Leaf exclusively.
Wizzy had no breakdowns during its high-mileage (174,000 miles) four-year working life. Outside of scheduled annual services, the Leaf went through three sets of wipers, two sets of brake pads for the front and rear and one damper, as well as tyre replacements when necessary.
“For us, that length of downtime can hurt the business, but we haven’t had that problem with the EVs. The service and maintenance savings are impressive.”
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https://www.fleetnews.co.uk/news/en...ll-ev-taxi-firm-with-dozen-leafs-on-its-books
Note no oil or moving parts maintenance on the powertrain (only coolant change) for 174k miles. That's £££ saved on top of fuel savings. The EV more than earned its value in savings.
 
srichards said:
The Kia Niro EV is a 300 mile car. The nowhere to charge at a destination will become less and less of a problem over time as well.
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It's an interesting car - not available yet so we'll see what the price is for the 64Kw batter version - but you're still talking 268-300 miles for 64Kw, so 4-5 miles per kw of charge

But at the moment it's a catch 22. We need more places to charge, at home and away, but they won't come in until EV cars increase in number and the demand is there. To increase the demand we need a better battery tech, longer range, quicker charge, lots and lots more charge points.

Then you've charge points numbers and time to 'fill'/charge. 2-5 mins to fill the car with fuel at a petrol station, quicker if pay at pump, so the turnaround is quick, range is more so less frequent visits by vehicles, vs 30 mins for a top up, and hour for a full charge on the 100Kw chargers? That ties up a lot of space for some time, restricting throughput, which is why there are white papers on dedicated charging areas a bit like the french aires de service, where every parking space has a charging point. These are being looked at where the infrastructure is in place to deliver the capacity needed, i.e. near to the current transmission paths.

Then as previously mentioned months ago, the current electrical infrastructure isn't in place for homes to do much more than 4Kw, 7Kw if your lucky but then the main wiring/infrastructure isn't up to every home doing this. It was put in place and scaled with an estimated load. There are white papers on using intelligent chargers controlled by the electricity companies to throttle back chargers at times of peak demand, some already have timers so you can charge on the cheaper overnight tariffs. Better batteries with a quicker charge may get around this - less time on charge. Then you've a number of houses where it's impossible to charge a car. Not everyone has a driveway.

At the moment on a 4Kw charge rate it's around 12-16 miles per hours charge for the current main line used battery tech. On a restricted overnight cheap rate, thats 7-8 hours of charging which works great for local journeys/commutes, I can totally see the appeal there as a second family car typically used for local journeys. The latest cars that can use a 100Kw charge point will do around 4.5 miles a minute on charge, but there won't be many of those points around, but handy if on a journey and need to top up at say the services. Thats a decent range boost on a 20 minute stop (loo break, grab a coffee...)

Still doesn't work for my frequent trips to Pembrokeshire. I can do the 360mile round trip on half a tank of diesel...

It's coming and I've no doubt it will get there, but it's still a niche market for particular journey types or 'family stories' as I've seen them called. There's a lot of infrastructure to be paid for before it can become mainstream, which is probably another one, probably the major one? of the current limiting factors.
 
wuyanxu said:
Sorry, no idea on warranty aspect. But there is a Cornwall Taxi company that use Leaf exclusively.
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Thats good use of an ev.

I notice you ignored the insurance aspect of my post, with reference to the 'hidden' costs you brought up.
Apparently EV's are almost 50% higher cost of insurance on average, that's £330 more expensive per year, on average. Does that count as a hidden cost?
https://www.comparethemarket.com/media-centre/news/electric-cars-expensive-insurance/

I'm not against EV's in any way, may even persuade my wife to have one when she next changes her car, but I do wish all the EV supporters would drop the agenda and have a honest and open discussion.
 
Our Leaf (worth 3-4 times the value of the car it replaced) is cheaper to insure than its antecedent.
 
wuyanxu said:
I beg to differ.
On the higher end of the market, I challenge you to find a sub-£30k second hand Tesla, back in 2013 they were selling for £60-70k. £50% depreciation for a 5 year old car? Find a similarly priced ICE car that still retain 50% of its value 5 years later.
On the lower end of the market, my Leaf was bought for £9100 11 months ago, same year same trim is still asking £10k+ at dealers right now. I am confident I can sell this car for more than £4500 (50% in 3 years, average motoring depreciation) in 2 years time, when my balloon payment of £4000 is due.
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Testla's are attractive because of the range, performance. Not attractive because of the price, as you say they still attract around £50k for a good 2 year old car, however thats a huge hit in depreciation from new. Oh and the S 70 runs around 380bhp :) so you're paying for that performance and range. 500bhp for the S 90.

50% depreciation over the first 3 years is pretty normal for any car to be honest. We bought our 1 year old diesel Mazda 6 estate for £19k from a dealer - £27.5k new the year before.

I hope the Kia Niro is good and successful. These are the type of manufacturers to push the market at the lower end, which will be where the main take up will need to be. A claimed 300 mile range means it's got a useable 200 mile range on normal driving, which makes it attractive beyond the local journey/second car scenario.
 
Nod said:
Our Leaf (worth 3-4 times the value of the car it replaced) is cheaper to insure than its antecedent.
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Did you get the new one? I did like the look of that, test drove one, a very competent car, just let down for my journey type by the battery range. The salesman was saying I needed to modify my driving for best performance - driving miss daisy I think he meant :D
 
PaulF said:
Thats good use of an ev.

I notice you ignored the insurance aspect of my post, with reference to the 'hidden' costs you brought up.
Apparently EV's are almost 50% higher cost of insurance on average, that's £330 more expensive per year, on average. Does that count as a hidden cost?
https://www.comparethemarket.com/media-centre/news/electric-cars-expensive-insurance/

I'm not against EV's in any way, may even persuade my wife to have one when she next changes her car, but I do wish all the EV supporters would drop the agenda and have a honest and open discussion.
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There are dedicated insurance companies like pluginsure. On average it is more expensive because of hard-to-source replacement parts (low production volume), but with the right provider (just like all insurance) it can be cheaper. You have to look at the details.

My Skoda Octavia 2.0 diesel DSG (group 20 IIRC) costs exactly the same as my Nissan Leaf, using Aviva multicar. Former is on my 10 years NCD with 10k miles, latter is on my wife's 2 yr NCD with 8k miles, make what you will of that. For me personally, I don't see insurance as extra hidden cost. That may change when I get a Tesla, but then, they are seen as premium cars, how much to insure a 400hp E-class?

We are having an honest and open discussion. But I do wish everyone have an open mind, be mindful of how many times you actually need the range and whether a second car as EV would work for you. Extreme daily mileages is not normal car usage for most people. Twice a year long 300+ miles trips doesn't automatically write off EV ownership.
 
wuyanxu said:
But I do wish everyone have an open mind, be mindful of how many times you actually need the range and whether a second car as EV would work for you.
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It would be an ideal 2nd car for us, except my wife thinks they are pig ugly, try getting over that argument with a woman. :-)
(Incoming I think).
 
I am trying to look at the overall picture, not your or my personal perspectives.
The average insurance is more expensive, more than enough to cover the additional maintenance costs of an ICE car, diesel or petrol.

I'm sure its been mentioned before, but the average person, slightly more than 50% of households do not have access to off street parking so an EV is not suitable or even possible for them at the moment. So, the average journey stat has its limitations in that you really need to know the average daily/weekly journeys of those who have the capability to charge an EV at home which is less than 50%.
Now, the journeys of those people nay be similar to the overall average but they may also be the ones who are bringing the average up, I know my mileage will be.
This is assuming we are looking into the details of course.

An EV for my wife could be suitable, she's changed her job location to be less than 15 miles away and hardly ever travels further than a 60-70 mile round trip, however, she is fussy about what she drives and likes a bit of quirkyness in her cars, had a Smart Roadster for years previously now has a limited edition DS3 ad it looks like the cover if a Gary Numan album! So any future car of hers has to appeal to her on that level too.
 
I regularly do four one mile journeys a day with some occasional additional trips of up to about 5 miles.
At the weekend I may do a 15 mile journey plus some short runs.
At least once a year I do a 120 mile round trip (with local driving in between).

An electric car would be 100% perfect for me at the moment. But like the vast majority in the area I have no driveway, no guarantee of a parking spot outside my house and no guarantee of a local charging station being available.

So what can I do?

I would need some form of removable batteries. That wouldn't be all that bad as a 300 mile range would mean only doing it once or twice a month but I'm not sure how easy it would be to implement what with connections, weight etc. The car would be pretty safe from theft though.
 
gman said:
I regularly do four one mile journeys a day with some occasional additional trips of up to about 5 miles.
At the weekend I may do a 15 mile journey plus some short runs.
At least once a year I do a 120 mile round trip (with local driving in between).

An electric car would be 100% perfect for me at the moment. But like the vast majority in the area I have no driveway, no guarantee of a parking spot outside my house and no guarantee of a local charging station being available.

So what can I do?

I would need some form of removable batteries. That wouldn't be all that bad as a 300 mile range would mean only doing it once or twice a month but I'm not sure how easy it would be to implement what with connections, weight etc. The car would be pretty safe from theft though.
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Or anywhere you visit for 20 -45 minutes with a rapid charger. With a 300 mile car and such low journey mileage you'd not actually need to charge up that often.
 
PaulF said:
Sorry, not going to watch that, I've seen a few of their videos and I'd be hard pushed to find a more biased view than theirs so renders their opinion void in my opinion.
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as opposed to many already posted on here. Yes they are pro-EV and being in the public image have more influence to change.
 
gman said:
I would need some form of removable batteries. That wouldn't be all that bad as a 300 mile range would mean only doing it once or twice a month but I'm not sure how easy it would be to implement what with connections, weight etc. The car would be pretty safe from theft though.
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My Dad has a mobility scooter with 2 car sized batteries, totally impracticle to remove and charge them off-site, cant see there being an option to do that with an EV car battery setup, maybe if garages offered a quick swap, which is something I have said for ages would solve a number of issues easily.
 
srichards said:
Or anywhere you visit for 20 -45 minutes with a rapid charger. With a 300 mile car and such low journey mileage you'd not actually need to charge up that often.
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There isn't anywhere I go for that length of time with a rapid charger and that's even if there's a free bay.



It feels like "they" (whoever they may be, Government, car manufacturers etc) want the public to make the commitment first before they make a proper commitment and get a comprehensive charging infrastructure in place, that is if you actually trust them to do it. What if something else comes out which is better than EV, will they just abandon all those who committed? Bearing in mind we got shafted in 2006 with retrospective road tax changes and then again recently with diesels I don't really trust "them" very much.

Then what happens when the Government start losing all their fuel duty and VAT revenues to EV? Obviously electricity will be targeted to plug the hole just as they addressed the reduced revenues from cars becoming more and more emission friendly over the years and reworking the road tax calculations. But will it only be EV drivers that will be targeted or will the Government target electricity as a whole and screw over those who don't even have EV cars? The answer is so obvious that it becomes a rhetorical question.
 
wuyanxu said:
I beg to differ.
On the higher end of the market, I challenge you to find a sub-£30k second hand Tesla, back in 2013 they were selling for £60-70k. £50% depreciation for a 5 year old car? Find a similarly priced ICE car that still retain 50% of its value 5 years later.
On the lower end of the market, my Leaf was bought for £9100 11 months ago, same year same trim is still asking £10k+ at dealers right now. I am confident I can sell this car for more than £4500 (50% in 3 years, average motoring depreciation) in 2 years time, when my balloon payment of £4000 is due..
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A cars depreciation isn't based on how much it costs to buy from a dealer 2nd hand, but how much a dealer will give you on trade in.
 
nilagin said:
A cars depreciation isn't based on how much it costs to buy from a dealer 2nd hand, but how much a dealer will give you on trade in.
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Same challenge: find a dealer willing to pay more than 40% original price for a 5 year old E-class/A5/5 series.

It's called desperately clutching at straws. ;)
 
Byker28i said:
Did you get the new one? I did like the look of that, test drove one, a very competent car, just let down for my journey type by the battery range. The salesman was saying I needed to modify my driving for best performance - driving miss daisy I think he meant :D
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14 plate. For our town needs, it's close to perfect. Doesn't get driven by Miss Daisy's chauffeur either - take it out of Eco mode and it'll embarrass a few people!
 
wuyanxu said:
Same challenge: find a dealer willing to pay more than 40% original price for a 5 year old E-class/A5/5 series.

It's called desperately clutching at straws. ;)
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Not really, whilst Ev's are overly expensive, you have picked a model even more out of most people's reach. Pick one at the lower end of the market which should be aimed at the average motorist/wage earner and they rate poorly for depreciation against similarly priced ice cars.
 
Nod said:
14 plate. For our town needs, it's close to perfect. Doesn't get driven by Miss Daisy's chauffeur either - take it out of Eco mode and it'll embarrass a few people!
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yup but watch the range drop rapidly :D
 
Byker28i said:
yup but watch the range drop rapidly :D
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Like hooning in an ICE car (or on a bike!)

TBH, Eco usually only gets turned off for a couple of roundabouts and where acceleration is likely to be an advantage - for normal road use, Eco is still better than the A-Class the Leaf replaced in terms of oomph.
 
Ex Jazz driver?

Slightly counterintuitively, (as in a fair few autos) Reverse needs the selector to be moved forwards in the Leaf so it's entirely possible (?probable?) that the driver fnurkelled up and went the wrong way, an all too common occurrence with elderly drivers.
 
Hehe, no need to be so serious. Was a tongue in cheek link. I forgot the ;)

But in the thread I saw it in, one poster does raise a valid point:
https://www.speakev.com/threads/car-mounts-verge.127920/#post-2374690
This is where the car is somehow mechanically jammed, for example against a steep kerb. What can happen is that you put your foot on the accel and nothing happens, then some more, then some more, and suddenly it gets to sufficient torque that it overcomes the obstacle and launches uncontrolled as it clears the obstacle (now with high torque demand) and has a crash.

In an ICE you would have a roaring engine and know that the car is working hard to mount the obstacle and might reappraise the situation for the better. In an EV there is nothing at all. Silence. Even though the motor might be working overtime and the car going nowhere.

What is required is that a loud noise is generated, both inside and outside, if the motor starts delivering torque but the car does not move, and increases in volume proportionately to the pedal position.
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Noise in an EV isn't the answer. Time after time you hear old people revving the engines to pieces because they're also deaf as posts.
 
nilagin said:
It is with regards to safety for everyone else.
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Apart from deaf people that can't hear them anyway. Or those wearing headphones. Or in a generally already noisy environment.

Relying on making a noise to avoid running someone over is naive.
 
srichards said:
Apart from deaf people that can't hear them anyway. Or those wearing headphones. Or in a generally already noisy environment.

Relying on making a noise to avoid running someone over is naive.
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Noise helps pedestrians as well as drivers. Engine noise can also assist in letting a driver know how fast they are travelling.
 
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