Car buyers should have 'long, hard think' about diesel

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soupdragon said:
I'm never going back to diesel.
Dirty, smelly, clunky.

Just the experience of putting fuel in the damn things was enough to put me off.
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Funny my 2018 1.5 diesel qashqai is none of those things

nilagin said:
I have owned both petrol and diesel, can't say I have noticed any difference in refuelling experiences other than they were less frequent with a diesel car.
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Yep.
 
soupdragon said:
I'm never going back to diesel.
Dirty, smelly, clunky.

Just the experience of putting fuel in the damn things was enough to put me off.

As for electric cars, if they can get one to full charge in under 10 minutes and the national grid can take the strain? then I'm in.
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I wouldn't hold your breath!
As for Diesels you've obviously never owned or driven a decent one!
 
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Overexposed said:
I wouldn't hold your breath!
As for Diesels you've obviously never owned or driven a dent one!
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Read back through all the threads before casting aspersions please.
 
Whats reading back through the thread got to do you with your ridiculous post about Diesels being clunky, dirty and smelly?. My point was you obviously haven't owned a decent one if you couldn't even bare to put diesel in it .
 
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Anything in the Daily Mail is garbage by default.

Zero tail pipe emissions. Can't beat that. That's what is needed right now.
 
srichards said:
Anything in the Daily Mail is garbage by default.

Zero tail pipe emissions. Can't beat that. That's what is needed right now.
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Depending on how the electricity is generated (coal fuelled powerstation) to recharge an EV, even a petrol car can be cleaner than the EV over it's lifecycle in terms of CO2. Just one coal fuelled power tation produces more Nox than all the euro 4, 5 and 6 diesel powered cars on UK roads.
 
nilagin said:
Depending on how the electricity is generated (coal fuelled powerstation) to recharge an EV, even a petrol car can be cleaner than the EV over it's lifecycle in terms of CO2. Just one coal fuelled power tation produces more Nox than all the euro 4, 5 and 6 diesel powered cars on UK roads.
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Coal is going. It doesn't matter. The UK goes days without using any coal power at all now.

Where do you think the refining industry get their energy from? Yes, the same coal power or dirty power you are maligning the EV with. EVs are vastly more efficient too.
 
How long do the batteries last with an electric car before they are worn out, won't hold charge ?
What happens to the batteries afterwards?
Genuine question I don't know it would put me off buying an electric car
With a modern petrol or diesel car if it is looked after they will last a very long time before they are worn out
Most people myself included do get a new car every few years but if I kept my current car a yaris with the mileage I do maybe 5k a year it would last practically forever
I'm not against electric cars but at the moment I believe that small efficient petrol engines are the best option
 
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srichards said:
Anything in the Daily Mail is garbage by default.

Zero tail pipe emissions. Can't beat that. That's what is needed right now.
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Okay then go back to page 6 I think it is where I quoted several sources on the massive impact on mining for battery materials.

Edit - it was page 5.

To save your fingers...

In the Jiangxi rare earth mine in China, Abraham writes, workers dig eight-foot holes and pour ammonium sulfate into them to dissolve the sandy clay. Then they haul out bags of muck and pass it through several acid baths; what’s left is baked in a kiln, leaving behind the rare earths required by everything from our phones to our Teslas.

At this mine, those rare earths amounted to 0.2 percent of what gets pulled out of the ground. The other 99.8 percent—now contaminated with toxic chemicals—is dumped back into the environment. That damage is difficult to quantify, just like the impact of oil drilling.

And, as in every stage of the process, mining has hidden emissions. Jiangxi has it relatively easy because it’s digging up clay, but many mines rely on rock-crushing equipment with astronomical energy bills, as well as coal-fired furnaces for the final baking stages. Those spew a lot of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere in the process of refining a material destined for your zero-emissions car. In fact, manufacturing an electric vehicle generates more carbon emissions than building a conventional car, mostly because of its battery, the Union of Concerned Scientists has found.
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source: https://www.wired.com/2016/03/teslas-electric-cars-might-not-green-think/


Norilsk is rated one of the most polluted cities in the world, thanks largely to the 350,000 tonnes of sulphur dioxide emitted annually by the city’s nickel factory, which was decommissioned last year. In 2016, Norilsk Nickel made headlines when an overflow of oxidised nickel waste turned the city’s Daldykan river red.
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the Cerro Matoso mine in Colombia, where residents of nearby communities and mine workers have reported elevated rates of deformities and respiratory problems associated with exposure to pollution generated by nickel mining and smelting
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source: https://www.theguardian.com/sustain...en-environmental-cost-electric-cars-batteries

.
 
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LCPete said:
How long do the batteries last with an electric car before they are worn out, won't hold charge ?
What happens to the batteries afterwards?
Genuine question I don't know it would put me off buying an electric car
With a modern petrol or diesel car if it is looked after they will last a very long time before they are worn out
Most people myself included do get a new car every few years but if I kept my current car a yaris with the mileage I do maybe 5k a year it would last practically forever
I'm not against electric cars but at the moment I believe that small efficient petrol engines are the best option
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Battery recycling figures are dire. Most end up in landfill
 
srichards said:
Anything in the Daily Mail is garbage by default.
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I've not read the Daily Mail. The MIT are distancing itself from the Daily Mails conclusions.
Robert has some interesting thoughts on that article.
 
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neil_g said:
Okay then go back to page 6 I think it is where I quoted several sources on the massive impact on mining for battery materials.

Edit - it was page 5.

To save your fingers...



source: https://www.wired.com/2016/03/teslas-electric-cars-might-not-green-think/






source: https://www.theguardian.com/sustain...en-environmental-cost-electric-cars-batteries

.
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Oh I didn't know all that so the nickel for electric car batteries comes at a terrible environmental cost
Electric cars are not green at all then
 
Batteries don't go into landfill. It's against EU regs. Remember when you stopped being able to put AA batteries in the landfill bin? Yes, since then.

Batteries are recycled and re-used. https://uk.reuters.com/article/us-b...are-for-electric-car-revolution-idUKKBN1DH1DS

If they end up end of life they are re-used for storage and so far battery degradation is generally, far less than predicted. A lot of the manufacturer grid storage plans have gone by the way side as they haven't had the batteries to use. They're still in the cars.
 
ianp5a said:
I've not read the Daily Mail. The MIT are distancing itself from the Daily Mails conclusions.
Robert has some interesting thoughts on that article.
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I've not read the Daily Mail either but Robert over at fully charged is about as biased a view you could get, not watched this video either but have seen his stuff before.
 
srichards said:
Batteries don't go into landfill. It's against EU regs. Remember when you stopped being able to put AA batteries in the landfill bin? Yes, since then.
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i know of plenty who still put batteries in general waste.

who exactly polices it?

(not saying its right, but it happens)

plus the amount of vehicle batteries that are recycled is widely criticised. Tesla (rather tellingly) wont comment on what % is actually recycled.
 
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https://www.theguardian.com/sustain...s-big-battery-waste-problem-lithium-recycling

"in the EU as few as 5% (pdf) of lithium-ion batteries are recycled. This has an environmental cost. Not only do the batteries carry a risk of giving off toxic gases if damaged, but core ingredients such as lithium and cobalt are finite and extraction can lead to water pollution and depletion among other environmental consequences."

"Francisco Carranza, energy services MD at Nissan, says the fundamental problem is that while the cost of fully recycling a battery is falling toward €1 per kilo, the value of the raw materials that can be reclaimed is only a third of that. "
 
End of life EV battery doesn't mean can't be re-used in stationary applications where energy density to weight ratio no longer matters.

This is a product you can buy right now:
GIVE A SECOND LIFE TO AN AMAZING NISSAN BATTERY
xStorage Home gives you the choice of buying a new battery or even one that has lived its first life in a Nissan LEAF. By choosing to give the Nissan LEAF battery a second life, you are also choosing to take a step forward towards a more sustainable future.
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https://www.nissan.co.uk/experience-nissan/electric-vehicle-leadership/xstorage-by-nissan.html


A very early 2012 Tesla Model S with 107,000 miles "battery still produces over 90 percent of its original capacity".
https://www.autotrader.com/car-video/video-i-bought-cheapest-tesla-model-s-usa-281474979856816

So 1 battery lasting for the life of the car is pretty normal, no servicing is required on the battery. How many oil changes is that for ICE?

How damaging is the used oil? https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0048969789900491
 
wuyanxu said:
A very early 2012 Tesla Model S with 107,000 miles "battery still produces over 90 percent of its original capacity".
https://www.autotrader.com/car-video/video-i-bought-cheapest-tesla-model-s-usa-281474979856816

So 1 battery lasting for the life of the car is pretty normal, no servicing is required on the battery. How many oil changes is that for ICE?
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An oil service is on average once a year although some manufacturers are now less frequent. Most engine oils are now fully synthetic and recyclable. If not remade into fresh synthetic oil it can be used in oil heater systems.
 
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Now that Audi CEO Rupert Stadler has been arrested in this scandal, Porsche, who had to recall 22,000 Cayenne cars last year, fitted with dirty engines designed by Audi, are fuming! And are now demanding their money back from Audi. Who must fix all the problems they caused and show full transparency over the investigation.
 
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When you show me a electric or hybrid electric car that will tow a 1500kg caravan for 300 miles non stop and up and down our lovely hills without faltering ,then maybe I’ll consider investing in one ,but like the majority of caravan owners I know it ain’t gonna happen so a big dirty diesel is the only way to go
 
the black fox said:
When you show me a electric or hybrid electric car that will tow a 1500kg caravan for 300 miles non stop and up and down our lovely hills without faltering ,then maybe I’ll consider investing in one ,but like the majority of caravan owners I know it ain’t gonna happen so a big dirty diesel is the only way to go
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"Ain't going to happen?" Really? Never? Or did you wish to add something?
 
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ianp5a said:
Now that Audi CEO Rupert Stadler has been arrested in this scandal, Porsche, who had to recall 22,000 Cayenne cars last year, fitted with dirty engines designed by Audi, are fuming! And are now demanding their money back from Audi. Who must fix all the problems they caused and show full transparency over the investigation.
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For some VAG owners that have had their cars fixed after the emissions scandal, their cars now keep breaking down or performance and economy have been badly compromised. VW has recently signed an agreement with Ford for possible collaborations on future commercial vehicles. No real details of the agreement have been released, but as VAG, haven't done any proper testing of diesel engines for quite a few years and who's bank balance has been heavily hit, plus I believe the VW/Mercedes CV contract is coming to an end, VW were in need of a new partnership to keep their costs down.
 
the black fox said:
When you show me a electric or hybrid electric car that will tow a 1500kg caravan for 300 miles non stop and up and down our lovely hills without faltering ,then maybe I’ll consider investing in one ,but like the majority of caravan owners I know it ain’t gonna happen so a big dirty diesel is the only way to go
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And herein lies the problem. The transport industry is now severely lagging in making its contribution to emissions reduction, partly due to the well we have always done it this way, attitude. How about removing the need for towing caravans by having caravans available at the destination. This is the same thinking with domestic appliances. we all want to own washing machines etc but the new thinking is that the manufacturers own it and sell us a lease for say 3000 cycles. they take it back strip it down and use the parts in a new machine thus no waste.

However since the 50s we have become a society intent on ownership. Until that thinking cycle is broken change will have unnecessary barriers.
 
ianp5a said:
"Ain't going to happen?" Really? Never? Or did you wish to add something?
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Nothing to add at this time ,obviously things do change over the years ,and theoretically a electric cars torque would be suitable for towing but just take a look round any modern caravan dealers and see some of the monsters they are making these days and tell me what would be capable of towing them not just on a flat road but on some of the u.ks lovely inclines .
 
jamesev said:
And herein lies the problem. The transport industry is now severely lagging in making its contribution to emissions reduction, partly due to the well we have always done it this way, attitude. How about removing the need for towing caravans by having caravans available at the destination. This is the same thinking with domestic appliances. we all want to own washing machines etc but the new thinking is that the manufacturers own it and sell us a lease for say 3000 cycles. they take it back strip it down and use the parts in a new machine thus no waste.

However since the 50s we have become a society intent on ownership. Until that thinking cycle is broken change will have unnecessary barriers.
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You obviously don’t own a touring caravan , your scenario already exists in the static caravan parks all over the u.k . But that involves excessive charges ,booking ,. The joy of a tourer is the ability to just hook up and go when you feel the need and it’s fitted out to your own personal needs .
Also having done a few holidays in statics over the years and seen the state that certain members of the public leave them in ,the expression f*** that for a game of marbles comes to mind
 
the black fox said:
Nothing to add at this time ,obviously things do change over the years ,and theoretically a electric cars torque would be suitable for towing but just take a look round any modern caravan dealers and see some of the monsters they are making these days and tell me what would be capable of towing them not just on a flat road but on some of the u.ks lovely inclines .
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Things are advancing very rapidly already. It's clear to investors that electric transport is on the verge of being mainstream. They need to invest in new power technologies asap. Which is why we see significant improvements happening all the time. Looking at what is in the showrooms today is no indicator of what will be there a few months down the line.
 
"In total, duties on petrol and diesel add up to almost £28bn a year for the exchequer".


At a guess that's probably roughly 50/50 split between petrol and diesel.
So, where is all this money coming from once diesel cars are "banned"
You think Electric cars are virtually free to run? they might be now .... however..
 
I can see 50kW or faster chargers getting taxed as heavily as fossil fuel. After all, this is the infrastructure to enable long distance travel. But I can't see home charging getting taxed, ever. It's too easy to by-pass.

VED is also reasonable for EV, current price of Free is not sustainable. But should never be more expensive than more polluting powertrains.

Combine both:
- the VED is priced on battery size (eg. £50 for up to 40kWh, £100 for up to 70kWh, £150 for up to 100kWh, £200+ for bigger battery and other powertrains)
- rapid charger has 100% fuel duty, 50p per kWh, 25p of which is fuel duty, so government is getting around 7.5p per mile driven (how does this compare against diesel duties?)

(for perspective, charging at home is ~10p per kWh, let's consider this the base electricity price. Currently Ecotricity EH charges 30p per kWh, CM Polar contactless charges 22p per kWh, the 6 Shell chargers charge 50p per kWh)
 
VED should be calculated on the weight of vehicle as heavier ones do more road damage.

Public charging is subject to normal 20% VAT not the 5% rate if it is charged for at all.

Shell isn't charging 50p a kWh. They've kept the 25p a kWh rate.

My home electricity has been hiked up massively. I was paying about 11.5p in 2016 and now this year's fix going forward is nearly 15p a kWh. I'm paying about 12p or so at the moment. It's ridiculous how much they are hiking up prices.
 
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