Car buyers should have 'long, hard think' about diesel

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The infrastructure in the UK requires us to import about 5% of our electricity. If that’s the case now what happens when we have 20% of cars n the road requiring electricity? We will start seeing more power stations, wind farms, wave farms etc cropping up all over the place and the production surrounding those will no doubt cause more damage than just running vehicles on fossil fuels in the short term.

It’s all a broken system surrounding an finite resource.

It’s not like we could even go down the route of hydrogen fuel cells either as the technology is moving too slowly and we have a second issue in that do we have enough fresh water stores t cover this the same as do we have enough power for EV.

Better public transport, more services etc would relieave some of the stress and then sensible decisions moving to a EV/HFC split would see people happy(happier) on both sides.

The government will find a way to screw the consumer with taxes one way or another.
 
Cobra said:
"In total, duties on petrol and diesel add up to almost £28bn a year for the exchequer".


At a guess that's probably roughly 50/50 split between petrol and diesel.
So, where is all this money coming from once diesel cars are "banned"
You think Electric cars are virtually free to run? they might be now .... however..
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Or the other question is instead of reduction in tax income what is the cost avoidance in reduction of the emissions? Whilst its not tangible to evaluate that in the short term the potential longer term benefits to local air quality might be. But as with most environmental things its a long term realisation.
 
jamesev said:
And herein lies the problem. The transport industry is now severely lagging in making its contribution to emissions reduction, partly due to the well we have always done it this way, attitude. How about removing the need for towing caravans by having caravans available at the destination. This is the same thinking with domestic appliances. we all want to own washing machines etc but the new thinking is that the manufacturers own it and sell us a lease for say 3000 cycles. they take it back strip it down and use the parts in a new machine thus no waste.

However since the 50s we have become a society intent on ownership. Until that thinking cycle is broken change will have unnecessary barriers.
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As already pointed out static caravan parks have been around for a good few years and not always ideal because of the way some people treat them.
A lot of the materials from white goods gets recycled anyway. Some units are refurbished and sold to people who can't afford to buy new, or the materials are broken down etc to be used to make something else. A high proportion of materials used in modern cars are made from recycling and it can be recycled again at the end of it's life.
I would much rather own my own stuff and see no benefit by leasing anything. At least with ownership you have a lot more control over the product and will probably cost less in the long run.
 
nilagin said:
As already pointed out static caravan parks have been around for a good few years and not always ideal because of the way some people treat them.
A lot of the materials from white goods gets recycled anyway. Some units are refurbished and sold to people who can't afford to buy new, or the materials are broken down etc to be used to make something else. A high proportion of materials used in modern cars are made from recycling and it can be recycled again at the end of it's life.
I would much rather own my own stuff and see no benefit by leasing anything. At least with ownership you have a lot more control over the product and will probably cost less in the long run.
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Thats the point though cost less to whom. Yes to you in the short term but not to society in the long term.
 
As a 75-year old (almost) that lives in the far South West of Cornwall and never likely to drive in a Major City than it Diesel for me again and again.

Until they stop Buses, Lorries, Ships, Planes etc the humble Diesel car is not the big Baddie of the scenario, so i`m looking for a large Discount on my next Car.
 
jamesev said:
me a society intent on ownership. Until that thinking cycle is broken change will have unnecessary barriers.
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But it's already happening - look at how many people "owned" a car 20 years ago compared to now. Nowadays, a lot more people are getting cars through PCP. They keep them for three years and then give them back and get another one. Those people don't own the cars (irrespective of what they might think) so the notion is clearly there. Look at software - pay for a subscription for the software rather than buy outright until the next release.
 
omens said:
But it's already happening - look at how many people "owned" a car 20 years ago compared to now. Nowadays, a lot more people are getting cars through PCP. They keep them for three years and then give them back and get another one. Those people don't own the cars (irrespective of what they might think) so the notion is clearly there. Look at software - pay for a subscription for the software rather than buy outright until the next release.
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Pcp is just a means of staying in a new car every 3 years that they may not have been able to afford otherwise. It doesn't necessarily mean they are adverse to actually owning a car.
A lot of manufacturers actually offer money off if you take up pcp finance. You can still pay the finance off and own the car. I paid mine off at the end of the 1st month.
 
jamesev said:
Or the other question is instead of reduction in tax income what is the cost avoidance in reduction of the emissions? Whilst its not tangible to evaluate that in the short term the potential longer term benefits to local air quality might be. But as with most environmental things its a long term realisation.
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But we all know its the short term that interests governments, ie how fast can we screw the populace much revenue can we collect while we are in office.
They won't put up with ( the half) 14 or even the full 28 Billion loss. That will come from somewhere, and I think we all know who will be paying!
 
jamesev said:
And herein lies the problem. The transport industry is now severely lagging in making its contribution to emissions reduction, partly due to the well we have always done it this way, attitude. How about removing the need for towing caravans by having caravans available at the destination. This is the same thinking with domestic appliances. we all want to own washing machines etc but the new thinking is that the manufacturers own it and sell us a lease for say 3000 cycles. they take it back strip it down and use the parts in a new machine thus no waste.

However since the 50s we have become a society intent on ownership. Until that thinking cycle is broken change will have unnecessary barriers.
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My grandparents bought their house in the 1930s and my grandad bought his first car then as well. As for caravans, there are sites with statics but those are much bigger. The point about touring caravans is you can tour with them, you can get the specific one you want, fill it with your own stuff, look after it yourself. I can't stand the things personally, but I do tow heavy loads as I have a racing car and a trailer for it, and a diesel Transit to tow with (and please don't say "racing circuits should provide all the cars for people to race in").
 
ianp5a said:
Now that Audi CEO Rupert Stadler has been arrested in this scandal, Porsche, who had to recall 22,000 Cayenne cars last year, fitted with dirty engines designed by Audi, are fuming! And are now demanding their money back from Audi. Who must fix all the problems they caused and show full transparency over the investigation.
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Porsche and Audi are both part of the VW group. As far as demanding money I'd wager it'll most likely be a case of moving numbers from column a to column b in a spreadsheet at VW.
 
neil_g said:
Porsche and Audi are both part of the VW group. As far as demanding money I'd wager it'll most likely be a case of moving numbers from column a to column b in a spreadsheet at VW.
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As they are doing it in public, this is clearly a rift between them. They are responsible for different cost centres. And are landing in different prisons.
 
ianp5a said:
As they are doing it in public, this is clearly a rift between them. They are responsible for different cost centres. And are landing in different prisons.
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You,ll be advocating travelling by bike next
 
ianp5a said:
As they are doing it in public, this is clearly a rift between them. They are responsible for different cost centres. And are landing in different prisons.
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Hardly. While they're under the same umbrella it's just words and pr spin. It's all about deflecting the blame to save sales on that particular brand.

Why are they also blaming audi rather than vw who ultimately make the engines that go in all vag cars. Same engines, same chassis, same drive train etc.
 
neil_g said:
Why are they also blaming audi rather than vw who ultimately make the engines that go in all vag cars. Same engines, same chassis, same drive train etc.
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Most VAG engines are derived from Audi engines not VW.
 
the black fox said:
When you show me a electric or hybrid electric car that will tow a 1500kg caravan for 300 miles non stop and up and down our lovely hills without faltering ,then maybe I’ll consider investing in one ,but like the majority of caravan owners I know it ain’t gonna happen so a big dirty diesel is the only way to go
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I would've thought that in the near future towing will be one of the things greatly improved by electric engines. Already the Tesla X is rated to tow up to 2,270kg. The torque from the electric engine would make it an easy match for most ICE cars - most big diesel trains and ships use electrical engines to get their torque without clutches don't they? The range while pulling a 1500kg caravan was tested (real world independent test) as up to 196miles on a full charge. Winnebago are already developing an EV platform, there are several campervan EV concepts out there and I'm sure motorhomes will follow as soon as more vans go EV.

While they aren't there yet, it'll happen in the very near future and the big dirty diesel will, thankfully, be consigned to history. Unfortunately, caravans won't ;)
 
yep the powers there its just the range limitations at the moment ,as you so rightly state it will happen sooner rather than later ,the next big hurdle will be actually affording one
 
decigallen said:
I would've thought that in the near future towing will be one of the things greatly improved by electric engines. Already the Tesla X is rated to tow up to 2,270kg. The torque from the electric engine would make it an easy match for most ICE cars - most big diesel trains and ships use electrical engines to get their torque without clutches don't they? The range while pulling a 1500kg caravan was tested (real world independent test) as up to 196miles on a full charge.

While they aren't there yet, it'll happen in the very near future and the big dirty diesel will, thankfully, be consigned to history. Unfortunately, caravans won't ;)
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Are you talking about this car with a secondhand price od £114,000? https://www.tesla.com/en_GB/inventory/new/mx Yeah, right! If you want the basics you can have a Ssangyong Korando for £17k. The Tesla also weighs 2.46 tonnes, so that's why it can tow a heavy caravan, but you'd not want to have one hit you in a crash ..........
 
I'd rather not have anything hit me in a crash, 2.46 tonnes or 100kg!
 
the black fox said:
yep the powers there its just the range limitations at the moment ,
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And of course the weight of the towing car, they are making these things as light as possible, so unless you are in the market for a Tesla ....
 
Peter B said:
Are you talking about this car with a secondhand price od £114,000? https://www.tesla.com/en_GB/inventory/new/mx Yeah, right! If you want the basics you can have a Ssangyong Korando for £17k. The Tesla also weighs 2.46 tonnes, so that's why it can tow a heavy caravan, but you'd not want to have one hit you in a crash ..........
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Which is exactly why I said we are not there yet. But tesla are good at giving a glimpse into the next few years. Once ev cars are ubiquitous, they will be cheaper. Battery tech is improving rapidly alongside general car efficiency improvements.
 
neil_g said:
My bad. But again all the same umbrella, its just idle threats and pr.
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As the news is about the police going over the details of the phone conversation between the Audi CEO, who is sitting in a jail cell, and the Porsche CEO, who is doing his best to stay out of jail, I don't think this is a PR stunt.
 
Took Mr Bump's advice,I've just bought my first ever brand new car, a V8 mustang 5.0 , i'm getting 24mpg out of that plus next year the tax is £140, it's a narrow window for the £140 tax though, 2016 cars are £555 and MY2018> are all over 40k
 
ianp5a said:
Plus you are not pumping out noxious fumes into city streets.
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Absolutely. But unfortunately, the best way to push EVs is going to be on a financial level.

Save the environment? Who cares. Save a few quid? Sign me up.
 
decigallen said:
Absolutely. But unfortunately, the best way to push EVs is going to be on a financial level.

Save the environment? Who cares. Save a few quid? Sign me up.
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Yes. Some have a "if I have any disadvantage, no matter how small, I'm not doing it" attitude. Despite the other overwhelming advantages.
 
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neil_g said:
however in the 3rd world countries where they mine the battery materials.......
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Yep. A reason not to move forward and stay with the old smokey world. Even though advancements in battery technology are solving that, and moving to new materials.
 
ianp5a said:
Yep. A reason not to move forward and stay with the old smokey world. Even though advancements in battery technology are solving that, and moving to new materials.
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When they HAVE moved to new materials that don't have a strongly negative impact on other people's environments, and especially if recycling the materials they do contain is fully effective then the argument for moving to electric will become much more compelling. As as explained earlier in the thread, recent IC cars aren't particularly smoky.

2 colleagues have bought used electric cars in the last few months, and are both happy and gently evangelistic about them. The Leaf, despite being a model with smaller battery, appears to deliver well on its expected mileage with a 90 mile range. The other, a Renault, struggles to get anywhere near it's official mileage (difficult to manage 60 miles of careful driving).
 
nilagin said:
Best hurry up then.
UK electric car drivers face paying more to charge at peak times | Environment | The Guardian
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I've no problems with that. It's pretty sensible. For most people, a 300-mile EV like that Hyundai won't need daily charging and can be easily charged overnight when off-peak.

A family on my street has solar panels and a Tesla battery in their house and an EV in the drive. Their electric plan is E7 and the Tesla system charges the house battery overnight using cheaper electric when the Solar panels haven't generated enough (generally just in winter). They seem to only charge their car at night too.
 
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