Campaign for Critique

PMN said:
Ah, so you did. Sorry, I misread although to be honest I didn't expect a post regarding an already existing feature, I assumed (possibly wrongly) we were discussing things beyond what already exists. :p
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Yes, but to be fair, I don't think this existing feature is used fully, and it could be put to better use in the way I mentioned, plus as the feature is already there, it wouldn't be a big change to the nuts and bolts of the forum. Maybe it could be fined tuned if that was thought necessary to improve the experience of using the forum.
 
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Trev4 said:
As an afterthought, as the moment adding a prefix is optional, maybe it would be worth talking about making it a necessary part of adding a new post that we choose an appropriate prefix before we can click the post button.
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Indeed it can be made a requirement to set a prefix before a thread can be started as there are already certain sections where that is the case, personally I like the new beginner prefix so that should stay IMO then simply have Critique, NSFW and Pleasure as options, that said the only option there that would preclude critique would be Pleasure
 
MWHCVT said:
Indeed it can be made a requirement to set a prefix before a thread can be started as there are already certain sections where that is the case, personally I like the new beginner prefix so that should stay IMO then simply have Critique, NSFW and Pleasure as options, that said the only option there that would preclude critique would be Pleasure
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That's exactly along the lines of my thinking Matt and I cant think of any other prefixes that would be necessary, or any that should be deleted. This would give the poster the option to elect to have criticism or not, used correctly and in the way mentioned, it just might resolve some of the issues discussed here, leaving the critique prefixed posts open for genuine constructive comments, and the members making the comment some sort of assurance that they aren't going to be rebuffed or waste their time.

Be interesting to see what other people think of this idea.
 
Trev4 said:
That's exactly along the lines of my thinking Matt and I cant think of any other prefixes that would be necessary, or any that should be deleted. This would give the poster the option to elect to have criticism or not, used correctly and in the way mentioned, it just might resolve some of the issues discussed here, leaving the critique prefixed posts open for genuine constructive comments, and the members making the comment some sort of assurance that they aren't going to be rebuffed or waste their time.

Be interesting to see what other people think of this idea.
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Indeed Trev, there are some current prefix that I've always felt a little odd, such as Studio and B&W those to my mind really aren't needed plus when you've three different sections for wild life is there really a need for wild/captive tags...though I know all of them would be argued for by the respective fans/users, in know this because I'll argue/defend sections I use or like

Now this one really will ruffle feathers I suspect, but I'd be tempted to add a film prefix and then kill the film photo section, a photo IMO is a photo regardless to how it was captured
 
MWHCVT said:
Indeed Trev, there are some current prefix that I've always felt a little odd, such as Studio and B&W those to my mind really aren't needed plus when you've three different sections for wild life is there really a need for wild/captive tags...though I know all of them would be argued for by the respective fans/users, in know this because I'll argue/defend sections I use or like

Now this one really will ruffle feathers I suspect, but I'd be tempted to add a film prefix and then kill the film photo section, a photo IMO is a photo regardless to how it was captured
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What you did there.

I see it.
 
I feel personally that each and every one off us should make a effort with crit and how we structure it. There is also members on here that take things over the top with there comments and banter which I think spoils it for people. I joined this site for 1 it's a friendly social place 2 it seems the best place to be out off all the other forums. 3 I want to learn and improve my skills. I am busy with my 365 and 52 challenges so I don't get to as many off the other areas off the forum as I'd like to. I for one love to receive proper crit for my images no matter wether it's good or bad crit as I take it all on board. When I first started posting my images I had few or no comments at yet my threads were viewed and that in its self told me several things. And for a few days had me questioning my self and wether or not I should continue with photography or not. I guess what I am saying is I'd love to see this place just be fun and happy I don't mind a bit off banter but I think things should stay on topic.
 
Pinkbikerbabe said:
I feel personally that each and every one off us should make a effort with crit and how we structure it. There is also members on here that take things over the top with there comments and banter which I think spoils it for people. I joined this site for 1 it's a friendly social place 2 it seems the best place to be out off all the other forums. 3 I want to learn and improve my skills. I am busy with my 365 and 52 challenges so I don't get to as many off the other areas off the forum as I'd like to. I for one love to receive proper crit for my images no matter wether it's good or bad crit as I take it all on board. When I first started posting my images I had few or no comments at yet my threads were viewed and that in its self told me several things. And for a few days had me questioning my self and wether or not I should continue with photography or not. I guess what I am saying is I'd love to see this place just be fun and happy I don't mind a bit off banter but I think things should stay on topic.
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I'm a lover of banter and do start the occasional thread just for that purpose but I have to agree even I think sometimes it's gone a little too far :(
 
There's rather a lot to read in this thread. ;)

There's a couple of issues I see with critique. For one, it's hard work to critique well, requiring concentration, analysis and tact in phrasing, and the effort involved could certainly put people off. The other is that some users are just fundamentally rude to anyone they don't admire, and while it's OK once you know who they are, I could well believe someone who was not robust and prepared could be quite upset by their comments.
 
MWHCVT said:
I'm a lover of banter and do start the occasional thread just for that purpose but I have to agree even I think sometimes it's gone a little too far :(
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I am a firm believer in that there is a time and a place for everything in life I love a joke and a giggle as much as the next person, just not in the middle of a photo crit thread if you know what I mean that's why we have a section on the forum for jokes and general tom foolery. And if members have issues with other members then that issue should be discussed by pm between the parties involved.
 
ancient_mariner said:
There's rather a lot to read in this thread. ;)

There's a couple of issues I see with critique. For one, it's hard work to critique well, requiring concentration, analysis and tact in phrasing, and the effort involved could certainly put people off. The other is that some users are just fundamentally rude to anyone they don't admire, and while it's OK once you know who they are, I could well believe someone who was not robust and prepared could be quite upset by their comments.
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Toni your right on both counts, it certainly does take effort and is hard work to give quality critique, but I truly believe it is worth putting that time in, the reward for doing it is knowing that your helping fellow photographers improve their photography not only that but I would hope most people value quality critique and to be honest if you want to receive quality critique you should also expect to give the same back, there is a caveat to that obviously those just starting out themselves will not be able too offer the same critique as someone with 5/10 or a lot more photography under their belts so there is always go to be limitations

As to the rudeness that really is an issue that only the green team can deal with and in order to know about it they will need help in the form of the RTM button :(
 
Pinkbikerbabe said:
I am a firm believer in that there is a time and a place for everything in life I love a joke and a giggle as much as the next person, just not in the middle of a photo crit thread if you know what I mean that's why we have a section on the forum for jokes and general tom foolery. And if members have issues with other members then that issue should be discussed by pm between the parties involved.
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The one thing I'd say to that is that, if done well, it might lighten the atmosphere where otherwise it could be heavy in a crit environment. Of course done badly then......

Martin, I try to stay away from the 'green team' button unless absolutely necessary, and most of us here are adults, despite all suggestions to the contrary, ;)
 
I have only been on this forum since the summer and am a beginner to DSLR. However, I am not a newcomer to photography and have been a professional Art Director for over 40 years directing specialists internationally in all the fields of photography both outdoors and in studio and in all the camera formats all the way up to 10 x 12 plate. So I feel very qualified to offer critique and feedback and I believe in being honest about it, otherwise what's the point - Constructive criticism whenever possible. However, some people can't take it and get upset - I see that as their problem not mine but it has already happened.

As a DSLR beginner I in turn seek feedback and help and value and appreciate what help I am offered. The only problem I sometimes have is that some photographers here stick to extremely rigid rules about what makes a good photograph - Some (not all) fail to see photographs as a picture or an image and insist on applying only technical rules which seem to be set in stone. I guess that many photographers only use a camera as a technical recording machine. I find this very disappointing.
 
ancient_mariner said:
The one thing I'd say to that is that, if done well, it might lighten the atmosphere where otherwise it could be heavy in a crit environment. Of course done badly then......

Martin, I try to stay away from the 'green team' button unless absolutely necessary, and most of us here are adults, despite all suggestions to the contrary, ;)
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Martin? :D indeed but sometimes there is a need for people to be told to play nice
 
RedRobin said:
I guess that many photographers only use a camera as a technical recording machine. I find this very disappointing.
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I can never understand why some people are so obsessed by what others decide to do with their camera. Why should it disappoint you if someone else decides to try record things as 'technically correct' as possible? It isn't your place to be disappointed by that and frankly you have no right to be, it's their hobby and it's entirely up to them how they chose to spend it.

Sorry for the outburst but I really do despair at the number of times I see comments like this.
 
ancient_mariner said:
Sorry Michael. ;)

:oops: :$
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So long as it doesn't become Michelle :lol:

RedRobin said:
I have only been on this forum since the summer and am a beginner to DSLR. However, I am not a newcomer to photography and have been a professional Art Director for over 40 years directing specialists internationally in all the fields of photography both outdoors and in studio and in all the camera formats all the way up to 10 x 12 plate. So I feel very qualified to offer critique and feedback and I believe in being honest about it, otherwise what's the point - Constructive criticism whenever possible. However, some people can't take it and get upset - I see that as their problem not mine but it has already happened.

As a DSLR beginner I in turn seek feedback and help and value and appreciate what help I am offered. The only problem I sometimes have is that some photographers here stick to extremely rigid rules about what makes a good photograph - Some (not all) fail to see photographs as a picture or an image and insist on applying only technical rules which seem to be set in stone. I guess that many photographers only use a camera as a technical recording machine. I find this very disappointing.
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I don't really want to get into the rules of photography/composition as they can prove as contentious as Canon vs Nikon, personally I see no issue with following rules, I also think that in order to know when to break the rules you do first need to understand them :)
 
MWHCVT said:
I also think that in order to know when to break the rules you do first need to understand them :)
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Naturally, but why assume everyone who picks up a camera 'has' to be an artist? (I'm not aiming this question at you, Matt :)). There are plenty of people shooting, for example, aviation and the sole purpose of what they do is to record the planes as technically correct as possible. Many never point their camera at anything else and that's literally all they do, are they wrong? Is that disappointing?

They enjoy what they do and that's the only important thing, what right does anyone else have to patronisingly say that's "disappointing"? :mad:
 
Any how can we get some more people to sign up as critters! :D now that phrase has been used I cannot help but use it :lol:

So come on roll up and sign up... Say where you'll concentrate on primarily (Landscapes, People/Portraiture, Transport etc or any combination) and the commitment you'll make to being a critter :thumbs:
 
PMN said:
Naturally, but why assume everyone who picks up a camera 'has' to be an artist? (I'm not aiming this question at you, Matt :)). There are plenty of people shooting, for example, aviation and the sole purpose of what they do is to record the planes as technically correct as possible. Many never point their camera at anything else and that's literally all they do, are they wrong? Is that disappointing?

They enjoy what they do and that's the only important thing, what right does anyone else have to patronisingly say that's "disappointing"? :mad:
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And Breathe out though I do get exactly where your coming from, ironically I originally brought my camera to take photos of planes, after being a member of airliners.net and spending a lot of time looking at the galleries on there, I never did submit any photos as the then rigid rules on that site soon killed my interest in shooting in the style they wanted at I felt it killed creative choices
 
PMN said:
Naturally, but why assume everyone who picks up a camera 'has' to be an artist? (I'm not aiming this question at you, Matt :)). There are plenty of people shooting, for example, aviation and the sole purpose of what they do is to record the planes as technically correct as possible. Many never point their camera at anything else and that's literally all they do, are they wrong? Is that disappointing?

They enjoy what they do and that's the only important thing, what right does anyone else have to patronisingly say that's "disappointing"? :mad:
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A tricky part of 'critique' is recognising tastes vary, and it's much easier to advise people on technical details than on artistry. Photography tends to use both in large measure, and sometimes one aspect will come to the fore while the other suffers. But there are some for whom a blown highlight will ruin an image that looks great as a picture, while for others, conforming to technical perfection makes an image uninspiring.

I asked for critique recently, and a couple of guys were kind enough to comment. An aspect they didn't like was the large amount of black in the image, and I was able to thank them for their feedback (and reprocess) while not necessarily agreeing with them completely.
 
MWHCVT said:
And Breathe out though I do get exactly where your coming from, ironically I originally brought my camera to take photos of planes, after being a member of airliners.net and spending a lot of time looking at the galleries on there, I never did submit any photos as the then rigid rules on that site soon killed my interest in shooting in the style they wanted at I felt it killed creative choices
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That's a remarkably similar story to mine! I started out in photography doing aviation stuff, uploaded to A.Net and Jetphotos, eventually spending 2 years as a screener on JP and I now own a smaller site which has sadly been neglected recently due to my other photographic interests. It didn't take long until I started experimenting shooting other things and those experiments soon developed into a real passion/obsession (it's a fine line!) Had it not been for aviation I wouldn't have bought a DSLR in the first place, and had it not been for the technical standards of sites like A.Net and JP I wouldn't have spent so much time learning the more technical aspects of photography.

I have a lot to thank aviation for. :)
 
MWHCVT said:
Any how can we get some more people to sign up as critters! :D now that phrase has been used I cannot help but use it :LOL:

So come on roll up and sign up... Say where you'll concentrate on primarily (Landscapes, People/Portraiture, Transport etc or any combination) and the commitment you'll make to being a critter (y)
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Ok Matt, my arms aching through being pushed up my back, I give in :nailbiting: :LOL:
I'm no expert by a long long way, but I'll do my best in the bird forum. I cant guarantee a certain number each day due to other commitments, but I will do as many as I can and as often as I can.
 
ancient_mariner said:
A tricky part of 'critique' is recognising tastes vary, and it's much easier to advise people on technical details than on artistry. Photography tends to use both in large measure, and sometimes one aspect will come to the fore while the other suffers. But there are some for whom a blown highlight will ruin an image that looks great as a picture, while for others, conforming to technical perfection makes an image uninspiring.

I asked for critique recently, and a couple of guys were kind enough to comment. An aspect they didn't like was the large amount of black in the image, and I was able to thank them for their feedback (and reprocess) while not necessarily agreeing with them completely.
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Absolutely. I generally only offer critique on images that make sense to me, if that makes sense?! I shoot a wide range of things and spend a lot of time investigating other people's work as well so the scope of what I kind of 'get' is quite wide, but if there's something I just don't get artistically then I generally try avoid commenting. Naturally there are varying degrees of not getting something ranging from 'I might get it if I look hard enough' to 'what the hell is that'?! If it's near the first option then I'll generally persevere and see if I can make sense of it but if it's the other extreme there's often not much point. It presumably made sense to the photographer, me just saying it doesn't make sense to me isn't going to help anyone!
 
RedRobin said:
I have only been on this forum since the summer and am a beginner to DSLR. However, I am not a newcomer to photography and have been a professional Art Director for over 40 years directing specialists internationally in all the fields of photography both outdoors and in studio and in all the camera formats all the way up to 10 x 12 plate. So I feel very qualified to offer critique and feedback and I believe in being honest about it, otherwise what's the point - Constructive criticism whenever possible. However, some people can't take it and get upset - I see that as their problem not mine but it has already happened.

As a DSLR beginner I in turn seek feedback and help and value and appreciate what help I am offered. The only problem I sometimes have is that some photographers here stick to extremely rigid rules about what makes a good photograph - Some (not all) fail to see photographs as a picture or an image and insist on applying only technical rules which seem to be set in stone. I guess that many photographers only use a camera as a technical recording machine. I find this very disappointing.
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So give the critique you want to give.

As long as it's polite and constructive, you can't fall off.

And post your pictures, too; I reckon that all else being equal, photography is 90% composition and 10% technical stuff (there are exceptions and corner cases, obviously, but life's like that). You say you're an experienced tog, and that should shine through in your pictures irrespective of whether you're using a pinhole camera or the latest multimegapixel monster from Canikon.
 
RedRobin said:
The only problem I sometimes have is that some photographers here stick to extremely rigid rules about what makes a good photograph - Some (not all) fail to see photographs as a picture or an image and insist on applying only technical rules which seem to be set in stone. I guess that many photographers only use a camera as a technical recording machine. I find this very disappointing.
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....My words weren't meant to be patronising (although I reserve to be so if I wish :D), so I apologise to those who interpreted them that way - Paul PMN in particular.

I meant that I am disappointed from my own point of view as someone who doesn't approach photography that way. Hopefully you can see that if someone only uses a camera as a recording machine and if they crit the work of others only on that basis, it's then disappointing as a beginner to be told you should only do things a certain way.

There is no right or wrong in this but only one's individual preferences.
 
PMN said:
That's a remarkably similar story to mine! I started out in photography doing aviation stuff, uploaded to A.Net and Jetphotos, eventually spending 2 years as a screener on JP and I now own a smaller site which has sadly been neglected recently due to my other photographic interests. It didn't take long until I started experimenting shooting other things and those experiments soon developed into a real passion/obsession (it's a fine line!) Had it not been for aviation I wouldn't have bought a DSLR in the first place, and had it not been for the technical standards of sites like A.Net and JP I wouldn't have spent so much time learning the more technical aspects of photography.

I have a lot to thank aviation for. :)
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The trouble for me was while I still love aviation, I found a photographic love that I feel head over heals in love with and that is long exposure photography :D

Trev4 said:
Ok Matt, my arms aching through being pushed up my back, I give in :nailbiting: :LOL:
I'm no expert by a long long way, but I'll do my best in the bird forum. I cant guarantee a certain number each day due to other commitments, but I will do as many as I can and as often as I can.
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Good man Trev, the is no demand for you to do X per day or anything like that, but to spend time as you can being a quality critter will be wonderful
 
RedRobin said:
Hopefully you can see that if someone only uses a camera as a recording machine and if they crit the work of others only on that basis, it's then disappointing as a beginner to be told you should only do things a certain way.
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Well, no, I don't really see it. People who are more technical than artistic tend to critique technical aspects rather than artistic ones, that technical critique may be of great value to whoever's asking for feedback. That said, even if they did give artistic critique who's to say they're wrong for doing so? We're getting into the realms of assuming certain people are only capable of giving certain types of critique and that's a dangerous and extremely slippery slope...
 
Is it really the intention of this forum to appoint specific 'Critters' from the membership? - Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Surely to do so would risk a narrowing of what is considered 'right' or 'wrong'. For example, someone being told they haven't stuck to the Rule-of-Thirds in their composition.... So? Don't you have an aesthetic eye for judging a composition rather than a measurement ruler?
 
PMN said:
We're getting into the realms of assuming certain people are only capable of giving certain types of critique and that's a dangerous and extremely slippery slope...
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....I agree! (as my post #153)
 
RedRobin said:
Is it really the intention of this forum to appoint specific 'Critters' from the membership? - Please correct me if I'm wrong.
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You're wrong :) All matt is trying to do is figure out who's up for being involved in giving some real and worthwhile feedback.

RedRobin said:
Surely to do so would risk a narrowing of what is considered 'right' or 'wrong'. For example, someone being told they haven't stuck to the Rule-of-Thirds in their composition
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Not when the intention is to lessen worthless comments along the lines of 'great shot'.

RedRobin said:
Don't you have an aesthetic eye for judging a composition rather than a measurement ruler?
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Where did anyone say they used a measuring tool?
 
RedRobin said:
Is it really the intention of this forum to appoint specific 'Critters' from the membership? - Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Surely to do so would risk a narrowing of what is considered 'right' or 'wrong'. For example, someone being told they haven't stuck to the Rule-of-Thirds in their composition.... So? Don't you have an aesthetic eye for judging a composition rather than a measurement ruler?
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Yes simply you are wrong ;) it's not the intention to appoint people (critters) to me the master of that forum, partially because that's not the idea, but more importantly who the hell would I be to say who is right or wrong/is the best at what why do..what this is about is asking people to volunteer to make that extra effort to offer quality critique, within areas they're interested particularly but also on the wider forum as the opportunity allows...with a view that the more members that see effort being put in to give quality critique it may just encourage them to do the same
 
Paul aka PMN, I agree about worthless unqualified comments such as "great shot" and especially "nice shot".

My measuring tool reference was only to emphasise the approach.
 
MWHCVT said:
Yes simply you are wrong ;) it's not the intention to appoint people (critters) to me the master of that forum, partially because that's not the idea, but more importantly who the hell would I be to say who is right or wrong/is the best at what why do..what this is about is asking people to volunteer to make that extra effort to offer quality critique, within areas they're interested particularly but also on the wider forum as the opportunity allows...with a view that the more members that see effort being put in to give quality critique it may just encourage them to do the same
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....Well, I often contribute encouragement and also very honest feedback but whether that is "quality critique" or not is an entirely different matter as I tend to respond to how emotionally appealing an image is rather than anything technical.
 
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