Campaign for Critique

MWHCVT said:
Personally I have to say no to that idea, as with the best of intentions stuff said in such a section would spill out into the open forum and result in spiteful, bitter posting...and I suspect just create even more work for the green team, plus for me it goes against the ethos of the forum being a friendly place
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There would have to be an understanding that the crits are constructive and no malice is intended.
 
fracster said:
Problem is that some of us, generally from the grim north, can be a bit, blunt, shall we say. We tend not to dress things up. Now that pees some people off, but it is how we would speak to each other face to face, so it`s not an internet thing.

When I met Brash, we spoke to each other as we do on here, same when I met Diddy Dave, Gary,Lee and many others. I`m sure Phil and I would be the same.

We don`t do it on purpose, it is just how we are.
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...and from further North!

When I was called rude and unhelpful, I reread what I had posted and could find nothing untowards :confused:
I thought I was constructive!

Maybe the further North you are the more blunt you get...
 
I only tend to respond to what I know about - i.e. pictures of grass, rocks and water - but I do read the other critique sections, because it's interesting.

And most of the "problem" threads that I have seen are those where blunt-but-fair critique has resulted in someone getting all bent out of shape. I think that the "feedback & critique" part of these forums gets forgotten about and people sometimes post not expecting to receive critique.

Perhaps it needs reiterating that if you post in the feedback & critique forums, whether you put a critique tag on your post or not, your thread is fair game for critique, and that your picture might not be perceived by others in the same way as you do.

tl;dr: post in the crit forums, get crit; don't whine when it's not what you want to hear, as long as it's constructive.

OTOH, TP has provided forums for simple non-crit sharing of photos, so if you don't want critique on a particular picture, there is a place to post it.
 
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kendo1 said:
...and from further North!

When I was called rude and unhelpful, I reread what I had posted and could find nothing untowards :confused:
I thought I was constructive!

Maybe the further North you are the more blunt you get...
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Nah, it is just people south of Sheffield that pussy foot about, you kilt wearing, Mars Bar eating Picts are ok................:D
 
:)
 
fracster said:
Problem is that some of us, generally from the grim north, can be a bit, blunt, shall we say. We tend not to dress things up. Now that pees some people off, but it is how we would speak to each other face to face, so it`s not an internet thing.

When I met Brash, we spoke to each other as we do on here, same when I met Diddy Dave, Gary,Lee and many others. I`m sure Phil and I would be the same.

We don`t do it on purpose, it is just how we are.
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My dear old granny was from Holmfirth I know just how blunt they can be :lol: but there is a fine line between blunt, and rude :thumbs:

kendo1 said:
There would have to be an understanding that the crits are constructive and no malice is intended.
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But then you just have what the current forums should be anyway :thumbs:

pwhysall said:
I only tend to respond to what I know about - i.e. pictures of grass, rocks and water - but I do read the other critique sections, because it's interesting.

And most of the "problem" threads that I have seen are those where blunt-but-fair critique has resulted in someone getting all bent out of shape. I think that the "feedback & critique" part of these forums gets forgotten about and people sometimes post not expecting to receive critique.

Perhaps it needs reiterating that if you post in the feedback & critique forums, whether you put a critique tag on your post or not, your thread is fair game for critique, and that your picture might not be perceived by others in the same way as you do.

tl;dr: post in the crit forums, get crit; don't whine when it's not what you want to hear, as long as it's constructive.

OTOH, TP has provided forums for simple non-crit sharing of photos, so if you don't want critique on a particular picture, there is a place to post it.
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I guess a tick box could be added when starting a thread in the photo sections reminding people that they're posting in the critique section and that should the not want critique they should post in photos for pleasure
 
Its a good thread Matt and it has raised some interesting posts. I try to do comprehensive comments but sometimes the words just wont come and all that comes out is nice pic :) Most of my comments are usually about why I like a photo because I do not feel qualified to give in depth technical critique, I am a hobbiest who likes to take photos not a professional. Personally, I think very few people on here are skilled enough to give good in depth technical critique, there are some but they seem to be posting less & less. But I do like to share my photos and am happy for people to comment even if that is in a negative way, I do know my limitations and most critique of my photos I have agreed with. There is one point that seems to be overlooked by everyone not all critique is correct, neither does the OP have to agree with it. Some posters on here seem to think their word is final and are often very combative if the OP disagrees and to be honest I find them as annoying as the ones that take a huff when their ego is dented.

Steve
 
MWHCVT said:
My dear old granny was from Holmfirth I know just how blunt they can be :LOL: but there is a fine line between blunt, and rude (y)
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Down to the person involved Matt, nowt you can do about it. What you find rude, others don`t and vice versa, that is never going to change.
 
jakeblu said:
Its a good thread Matt and it has raised some interesting posts. I try to do comprehensive comments but sometimes the words just wont come and all that comes out is nice pic :) Most of my comments are usually about why I like a photo because I do not feel qualified to give in depth technical critique, I am a hobbiest who likes to take photos not a professional. Personally, I think very few people on here are skilled enough to give good in depth technical critique, there are some but they seem to be posting less & less. But I do like to share my photos and am happy for people to comment even if that is in a negative way, I do know my limitations and most critique of my photos I have agreed with. There is one point that seems to be overlooked by everyone not all critique is correct, neither does the OP have to agree with it. Some posters on here seem to think their word is final and are often very combative if the OP disagrees and to be honest I find them as annoying as the ones that take a huff when their ego is dented.

Steve
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Steve, hobbiest, professional or whatever it should never stop anyone offering their thoughts, as you've said if not got the knowledge/confidence to offer technical advice that to me isn't a problem, there's certainly many aspects of photography where all I can do is comment on what I like, or don't like...so I avoid like the plague commenting on serious technicalities

You do raise an excellent point sometimes critique is wrong and more often critique is disagreed with rightly or wrongly but again so long things have been done politely hopefully arguments can be avoided, not always of cause but we wouldn't want to put the greenies out of business would we? :D

fracster said:
Down to the person involved Matt, nowt you can do about it. What you find rude, others don`t and vice versa, that is never going to change.
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Very true of course :thumbs:
 
Has this not been debated before?

I`m getting flashbacks. Must be all those tablets I had years ago.
 
fabs said:
I'm curious, in what way? You click on "Forums" at the top of the page (as you did before) and it lists all the individual forums in the same order as before, what's different?
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There used to be a drop-down menu with "Discussion -critique" in it ... now there isn't. For me. I used to hover over some tab and choose the one I wanted. Now it doesn't work. Opera 11.64
So for me - it doesn't work like it used to : so no critique posting.
 
Ulfric M Douglas said:
There used to be a drop-down menu with "Discussion -critique" in it ... now there isn't. For me. I used to hover over some tab and choose the one I wanted. Now it doesn't work. Opera 11.64
So for me - it doesn't work like it used to : so no critique posting.
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Not sure what the issue is. Click "forums", scroll down, there they are. All the forums in their sections.
 
pwhysall said:
I think that the "feedback & critique" part of these forums gets forgotten about and people sometimes post not expecting to receive critique.
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I disagree I think it's the post Photos for Pleasure sub-forum that gets forgotten!

Might actually be easier to get rid of that section and force posters who open threads in the "Photo Feedback and Critique" forum to choose at submit time whether it's there for "pleasure" or for "critique".....with the default state "pleasure"....

I also see this whole thread could make things worse where members are being encouraged to leave critique and worry they will end up just spouting back the old "rule of thirds" or "I'd like it better if this tiny little element is not blown out or in shadow"

I'd rather have less comments as long as the ones that were being left were actually beneficial and helped rather than feeling users were just posting on as many as possible to get their post count up.....or because they felt obliged to comment.

Just my opinion!
 
Brazo said:
I agree but am getting disheartened by what appears to be an increasing amount of photographers who simply wish to 'collect' images or tick them off their list, queuing up with all the others on Ashness Jetty to point their lens down the jetty at sunset, (are there 3 well worn holes in the wood?) or do a long exposure outside Westminster with a bus, or any number of increasingly cliche images. They will then want critique and their shot is invariably a poor copy of what's being done a trillion times before and even if its a good copy it is just that a copy, lacking in imagination, creativity and originality. I have no time to post critique for such shots but sadly have to accept (and it's probably my problem) that a lot of photographers want to do this.
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That's easy to say if you're a very good and accomplished photographer, take me for example, I see a nice image and think I'll have a go at that, not to copy but simply to see how well I can do it, call it a self test or whatever, then I post it up here and it gets ignored because "it's been done many times before" but it's not been done by me and if there's been some simple mistakes made then why not point them out so improvement can be made next time and the advice can be carried through into other photographs at different locations.
 
And....just something from another angle, there's is something that really winds me up....blown sky and the like!
I see Crit saying "you've blown part of the sky"!....what is the point of this when no mention is made of giving advice into how that can be avoided next time.
If I see another post saying "nice shot but the sky's blown" I'll self combust!
 
Martyn D said:
That's easy to say if you're a very good and accomplished photographer, take me for example, I see a nice image and think I'll have a go at that, not to copy but simply to see how well I can do it, call it a self test or whatever, then I post it up here and it gets ignored because "it's been done many times before" but it's not been done by me and if there's been some simple mistakes made then why not point them out so improvement can be made next time and the advice can be carried through into other photographs at different locations.
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Thats cool Martyn, my post was really about what stops me from posting critique and yes agree on the blown skies.
 
Martyn D said:
And....just something from another angle, there's is something that really winds me up....blown sky and the like!
I see Crit saying "you've blown part of the sky"!....what is the point of this when no mention is made of giving advice into how that can be avoided next time.
If I see another post saying "nice shot but the sky's blown" I'll self combust!
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You know Martin, that sort of knocks the idea behind this thread on the head. I understand what your saying, but many members might be able to see the possible errors in an image, but haven't got the ability or knowledge to offer advice about how to correct it next time. So, fire extinguisher at the ready, I am prepared to accept those comments to encourage all members to at least have a go at offering criticism or even general comments and to get them more involved in the forum.
 
Think that the system structure of the forum as it is works well but do see what the OP is getting at:)
I would rather someone say that the shot was crap and but they have to say why tho than just say nice shot
I do try to critique but am not very good at putting words into how I feel but sod it I post anyway !
 
Trev4 said:
You know Martin, that sort of knocks the idea behind this thread on the head. I understand what your saying, but many members might be able to see the possible errors in an image, but haven't got the ability or knowledge to offer advice about how to correct it next time. So, fire extinguisher at the ready, I am prepared to accept those comments to encourage all members to at least have a go at offering criticism or even general comments and to get them more involved in the forum.
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Ignore what I said (before I deleted it ;) ) I must learn to read properly what Trev said, :LOL:
 
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kennysarmy said:
I disagree I think it's the post Photos for Pleasure sub-forum that gets forgotten!

Might actually be easier to get rid of that section and force posters who open threads in the "Photo Feedback and Critique" forum to choose at submit time whether it's there for "pleasure" or for "critique".....with the default state "pleasure"....

I also see this whole thread could make things worse where members are being encouraged to leave critique and worry they will end up just spouting back the old "rule of thirds" or "I'd like it better if this tiny little element is not blown out or in shadow"

I'd rather have less comments as long as the ones that were being left were actually beneficial and helped rather than feeling users were just posting on as many as possible to get their post count up.....or because they felt obliged to comment.

Just my opinion!
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And opinions are a wonderful thing, fundamentally I guess that is what we really want to see posted in the feedback forums people's opinions on the photos posts, them if people want to get more in depth with technicalities that's great

LCPete said:
Think that the system structure of the forum as it is works well but do see what the OP is getting at:)
I would rather someone say that the shot was crap and but they have to say why tho than just say nice shot
I do try to critique but am not very good at putting words into how I feel but sod it I post anyway !
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I wasn't really suggesting that the forum structure should be changed of I'm honest though I do see merits of a potential change that has been suggested within this thread :thumbs:
 
LCPete said:
Think that the system structure of the forum as it is works well but do see what the OP is getting at:)
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It was me, rather than Matt, that suggested the forum layout is crap. It's not the direct cause of the critique problem, but I think the flaws of the layout encourage the forum to be used badly and makes it harder for the team to keep things running smoothly. But Marcel and the team appear to be happy with it.. must appeal to their masochistic streak, either that or they can predict the dummy spits that would result if they started re-arranging the furniture.

I'm someone who does hit the report button, but 9/10 times it will be report thread created in the wrong section. The number of IT related threads started in the general Talk Photography section must be averaging one per day over the last 8 weeks. There's also been a steady increase in the number of photo threads posted in the Talk Photography section asking for crit or just for general ego massage. I'd guess that at least 50% of threads in the TP section really belong somewhere else. Talk Landscapes has tumbleweed blowing through it, whilst there are landscape threads being started on a daily basis in TP (and TL is obviously unloved by its designated moderator as they're not moving them across). The end result is that there is no Landscape community on the forum with the sort of engagement that would keep discussions flowing, help the newbies and keep up a steady flow of crit and support. I'm just picking on Landscapes as it comes to mind, it's the same in most of the other genres. I think that if the genre discussion and sharing sections were together things might just work a little better.
 
Being relatively new to the forum, I have for a while absorbed information and rarely posted. For 2014 I’ve committed to comment more to threads and provide feedback to those looking for critique.
In addition, I’m aiming to regularly seek critique myself, but to date and having started a few threads with photos for critique, I’ve received very little feedback. Comments like ‘nice photos’, etc, whilst are nice to receive do little to feed my desire for constructive critique with the aim of improving.
I, for one, am happy to take constructive criticism on the chin and I’m sure many other forum members will as well. After all, receiving, and acting on, honest feedback is a valuable way to improve.
 
njcnic said:
to date and having started a few threads with photos for critique, I’ve received very little feedback. Comments like ‘nice photos’, etc, whilst are nice to receive do little to feed my desire for constructive critique with the aim of improving.
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Thinking about this and a few other comments in this thread, I'll raise another thought, something that applies to myself fairly often, maybe to others as well but I don't know about that. When a new thread is posted in a critique section (assuming in my case that its in an area that I follow or have interest in), initially I will take a good look and form my opinions, but, unless I know the author, I often wont post a reply straight away. I do however, wait until there are a few other posts so that I can judge the type or reaction they get before I make my comment. If they have received negative replies from the author, then I don't comment, I see no point in wasting my time. If however, I get the impression that the author is accepting the views of others, then I will comment, and express my views honestly and totally irrespective of what others have already said in the thread.
The point I am making here is that if others are also doing something similar because of bad previous experiences, and waiting to see the authors responses, then its understandable that some threads go without any comments at all.
 
There is a lot of talk about people taking crit badly, spitting their dummy out and in turn people no longer wanting to offer their opinion.

Fair enough if that happens, but I very rarely see it. Going by my own experiences, what more often happens is that I put up a photo for critique, specifically ask for ways it may be improved and state that I have no objection to negative feedback unless it's constructive. Yet still 90% of the the time end up a load of views and one or two comments along the lines of 'nice shot'. Great that a couple of people may like it, but not at all constructive.

Now I don't have a vast amount of time to spend on forums so I know I don't post a lot of critique myself. However to counter that, for every one photo I put up I actively look for at least two other critique posts that I can give feedback on.
But this falls down because I now know I am unlikely to get feedback on mine, so having not posted any shots I'm no longer actively looking for others to give feedback either. Unfortunately that now seems to make me part of the problem. :confused:
 
Well I think that we've talked a lot about the issue so maybe we ought to try and be proactive now, my suggestion is that if those that want to see the critique improve join up in an informal team to try and make sure the campaign is taken out into the forum with that in mind it's time for everyone to run and hide ;) it's Volunteer Time...I'm not going to tell you what to do as it's not my place but if we can try and get people who can commit to taking quality critique to a specific forum(s) and the general commitment in comments your willing to make (none of this is binding ) please note the more people per section the better but lets try an cover every section

I'll kick the list off:

MWHCVT - General / Landscape / Creative - Post 5+ critique posts across my selected sections each day I log in
NJCNIC - Landscape - Post a minimium of 3 critque posts each day (when I have the time!)
pwhysall - Landscape - A couple a day
Trev4 - Birds - As time allows
 
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Generally, we should just all be honest and balanced in our feedback, whilst recognising we all have different levels of ability. If the OP takes constructive feedback badly, presumably they'll soon head somewhere else for the blinkered gratification that they desire.

Why post for critique if all you're willing to hear are positive comments!
 
njcnic said:
Generally, we should just all be honest and balanced in our feedback, whilst recognising we all have different levels of ability. If the OP takes constructive feedback badly, presumably they'll soon head somewhere else for the blinkered gratification that they desire.

Why post for critique if all you're willing to hear are positive comments!
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Exactly and that's what we aim for really just good honest critique that helps people improve as photographers if they're willing to take it on board

njcnic said:
NJCNIC - Landscape - Post a minimium of 3 critque posts each day (when I have the time!)
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Great ill add you to the list :D
 
pwhysall said:
I'm happy to post a couple a day in Landscapes.
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Nice on Peter I'll add your good self onto the list, this is already going well (y) so hopefully we will all start to see early results
 
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I'm actually wondering whether there is a more efficient way the critique bits of the forum could be structured. This isn't something I've thought through too well and I'm sure with some thought it could be better implemented, but as there seems to be a little team of 'critters' (for want of a better name!) developing would it make sense to have a dedicated 'serious critique' section that's mostly looked after by them? With the greatest will in the world 'great shot' comments will never be eradicated, and to be perfectly honest I'm convinced that's all some people want to hear about their images anyway even if they are posted for critique. Those people can post in the standard forums if they just want general comments and post in the dedicated more serious forum for in depth comments.

As I say I haven't really thought it through so I'm sure a better way of doing it can be thought of, it just seems logical to me that the only way to separate general comments from serious and worthwhile crit is to have different places for them. Maybe posting rights in that forum could be limited to the OP and a select few others who 'opt in' as dedicated advisors (and by advisors I don't mean people who are necessarily the forum's best photographers, I mean people who are willing to spend time giving carefully considered and worthwhile opinions).

I might be talking total rubbish, I just thought I'd throw the idea out there. :)
 
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It's simply solved by having two main posting sections for images for comment!

1. Post your images here to share and let others see what you've been out taking photographs of - can still have all the same categories as current ie.Bird, Portraits, Architecture.

2. Post your images here to have them critiqued and for serious comments, again with the same sub categories.

Problem fixed.
 
PMN said:
I'm actually wondering whether there is a more efficient way the critique bits of the forum could be structured. This isn't something I've thought through too well and I'm sure with some thought it could be better implemented, but as there seems to be a little team of 'critters' (for want of a better name!) developing would it make sense to have a dedicated 'serious critique' section that's mostly looked after by them? With the greatest will in the world 'great shot' comments will never be eradicated, and to be perfectly honest I'm convinced that's all some people want to hear about their images anyway even if they are posted for critique. Those people can post in the standard forums if they just want general comments and post in the dedicated more serious forum for in depth comments.

As I say I haven't really thought it through so I'm sure a better way of doing it can be thought of, it just seems logical to me that the only way to separate general comments from serious and worthwhile crit is to have different places for them. Maybe posting rights in that forum could be limited to the OP and a select few others who 'opt in' as dedicated advisors (and by advisors I don't mean people who are necessarily the forum's best photographers, I mean people who are willing to spend time giving carefully considered and worthwhile opinions).

I might be talking total rubbish, I just thought I'd throw the idea out there. :)
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I think actually in the past there was a serious critique type sub forum from what was said when I made a similar suggestion last year, but it didnt really work and ended up being shutdown

But I get the point that your trying to make
 
kennysarmy said:
It's simply solved by having two main posting sections for images for comment!

1. Post your images here to share and let others see what you've been out taking photographs of - can still have all the same categories as current ie.Bird, Portraits, Architecture.

2. Post your images here to have them critiqued and for serious comments, again with the same sub categories.

Problem fixed.
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Seems we're thinking along similar lines here! :)

Personally I think having a complete duplicate of the sections, including sub-forums, would be rather messy (not to mention more of a headache for the mods to keep track of). If we have a dedicated bunch of people covering most genres I don't see any reason why there needs to be any more than a single forum covering everything, at least at the start. If the idea works then I'm sure it can be developed but certainly as a starting trial I think one forum would work perfectly fine.
 
MWHCVT said:
I think actually in the past there was a serious critique type sub forum from what was said when I made a similar suggestion last year, but it didnt really work and ended up being shutdown

But I get the point that your trying to make
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Ah right, bit of a shame but never mind. In all honesty I think that's the only way things are going to really change. :(
 
PMN said:
Ah right, bit of a shame but never mind. In all honesty I think that's the only way things are going to really change. :(
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Personally speaking the ideal would be to get people into the mindset of if the post in feedback and critique that is what they'll get, if they don't want that, then they should post in photos for pleasure
 
MWHCVT said:
Personally speaking the ideal would be to get people into the mindset of if the post in feedback and critique that is what they'll get, if they don't want that, then they should post in photos for pleasure
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Ideally yes, I agree and there's nothing at all wrong with making that point but nevertheless it's unrealistic to expect people to change. As we've seen in this discussion there are various points of view and many are actually aimed at photographers not helping themselves rather than poor crit being given, unfortunately I just can't see a way that's really going to change if the system stays the way it is. People comment in the way they do because that's what their personality dictates, I'm all for requesting people spend a little time considering how their words come across in an online world devoid of face-to-face communication but you're not going to change people all that much. Unless the way critique forums are structured changes I don't think anything else will.
 
I seem to remember a special critique section from the past, just what happened to it I don't know. There is a way for this to evolve already in place, by using the prefix facility, each post can be marked as Critique wanted, and perhaps the mods could consider adding to the options by including something like - Not for critique, for interest/pleasure only, or whatever is deemed sensible. That way there wouldn't be any need for separate critic sections which would be far too messy and inoperable.
 
Trev4 said:
I seem to remember a special critique section from the past, just what happened to it I don't know. There is a way for this to evolve already in place, by using the prefix facility, each post can be marked as Critique wanted, and perhaps the mods could consider adding to the options by including something like - Not for critique, for interest/pleasure only, or whatever is deemed sensible. That way there wouldn't be any need for separate critic sections which would be far too messy and inoperable.
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As an afterthought, as the moment adding a prefix is optional, maybe it would be worth talking about making it a necessary part of adding a new post that we choose an appropriate prefix before we can click the post button.
 
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