Campaign for Critique

the thing that gets my goat is when people ask for and then ignore crit. Not even a simple thank you for taking the time

Couldn't agree more, there are people whose photos I'll never comment on again for exactly that reason. I don't expect the OP to agree with what I say as it's just a personal opinion but at least be decent enough to acknowledge it!
 
"That's how I wanted it to look"
"Well, the customer/client liked it, so that's all that matters"
"Why are you picking on me?"
"No, my screen is calibrated correctly, YOURS isn't"
"I wasn't asking for critique!!" (although posted in a critique section)

These are what get my goat... and we've all seen them... asking for critique/feedback, and this is the response. This puts people off...
 
I think splitting the crit forums would be the way forward. Facebook/flickr type section for those who just want to post pics for 'Nice shot; comments and a more serious section for those who want proper comments on their work. I k now thats the antithesis of what this place should be about and I don't like it much, but it seems it may be a reasonable way forward.
 
Too little too late Matt imho.
 
I agree but am getting disheartened by what appears to be an increasing amount of photographers who simply wish to 'collect' images or tick them off their list, queuing up with all the others on Ashness Jetty to point their lens down the jetty at sunset, (are there 3 well worn holes in the wood?) or do a long exposure outside Westminster with a bus, or any number of increasingly cliche images. They will then want critique and their shot is invariably a poor copy of what's being done a trillion times before and even if its a good copy it is just that a copy, lacking in imagination, creativity and originality. I have no time to post critique for such shots but sadly have to accept (and it's probably my problem) that a lot of photographers want to do this.
 
Too little too late Matt imho.

Not necessarily Rich. Granted it's not perfect, but like Kipax said earlier, it never will be, and someone will always get upset.

For me, it's a little like choosing your battles. I only really comment mainly in the wildlife and birds section these days, and there is a definite spilt between the people who want to learn, and those who either get all snotty when you find fault, or only thank the people who provide a positive response (even worse in my opinion, but that's another story). I (and others no doubt) know who these people are, and even if they post an award winning shot, there will be no comment from me - the OP has to be prepared to take the rough with the smooth.

Regarding the people who want to learn, there have been a couple of success stories recently in the birds / wildlife section, and I think that is proof that the critique level is still working. I won't name the photographers I have in mind, but comparing their work now from 3 months ago, you would think it came from a different photographer.

So really, as the forum gets larger, you will undoubtedly see more 'nice shots' (I even post the odd one myself), but as long as you are prepared to learn, and can not get too carried away by the plaudits, then the crit section remains very worthwhile.
 
I have no time to post critique for such shots but sadly have to accept (and it's probably my problem) that a lot of photographers want to do this.

I'll be honest here, without trying to sound blunt (even though I will) that is entirely your problem. People are free to shoot whatever they wish, and if they want to try replicate a massively overshot angle then its their right to do so. It's also your right if you wish to skip past such images in crit threads.

I'm puzzled as to why that would "dishearten" you as it has no real bearing on your own output as a photographer, you do what you want to do as do they.
 
I'll be honest here, without trying to sound blunt (even though I will) that is entirely your problem. People are free to shoot whatever they wish, and if they want to try replicate a massively overshot angle then its their right to do so. It's also your right if you wish to skip past such images in crit threads.

I'm puzzled as to why that would "dishearten" you as it has no real bearing on your own output as a photographer, you do what you want to do as do they.
Your absolutely right it is my issue and yes of course people can shoot/do what they want, my point was that's one of the reasons why I wouldn't critique such a shot:)
 
Good call Matt, its a little difficult sometimes for me (and maybe others like me) who are fairly new to photography to offer advice so i have to resort to more simple things like "great image" etc but as Paul has said the comments like mentioned do nothing to aid in improving or encourage in posting.
The majority of what i've learnt has been from reading on here and picking up advice but of late the help from the knowledgable ones seems to be becoming less and less, (Yourself excluded as i've read some very helpful detailed advice on replies to threads) on the other hand if people are doing it day after day the last thing they probably want to do is spend the evening talking about photos!
You don't need to be an expert to offer positive reinforcement.

If you see a picture you like, you can say why you like it - perhaps you like the colours, or the shapes - without going into technical detail. All constructive critique - positive and negative - is useful, irrespective of the skill level of the critique-er. I do think that negative critique needs to be more carefully handled.

After all, restaurant critics don't have to be expert chefs, are they?
 
Not necessarily Rich. Granted it's not perfect, but like Kipax said earlier, it never will be, and someone will always get upset.

For me, it's a little like choosing your battles. I only really comment mainly in the wildlife and birds section these days, and there is a definite spilt between the people who want to learn, and those who either get all snotty when you find fault, or only thank the people who provide a positive response (even worse in my opinion, but that's another story). I (and others no doubt) know who these people are, and even if they post an award winning shot, there will be no comment from me - the OP has to be prepared to take the rough with the smooth.

Regarding the people who want to learn, there have been a couple of success stories recently in the birds / wildlife section, and I think that is proof that the critique level is still working. I won't name the photographers I have in mind, but comparing their work now from 3 months ago, you would think it came from a different photographer.

So really, as the forum gets larger, you will undoubtedly see more 'nice shots' (I even post the odd one myself), but as long as you are prepared to learn, and can not get too carried away by the plaudits, then the crit section remains very worthwhile.

I know where you are coming from Mike and yeh I agree there are a few that listen, learn and improve. You say it`s like choosing your battles, again I agree but that should not really be the case, I have had that turned against me in the past with the " why dont you reply to any of my threads arguement " as well as the accompanying PM`s and getting slagged off, you cannot win sometimes. I am always happy to be proved wrong Mike and that is with regards to my critique as well as my pictures. Discussing the merits or flaws of a picture as well as the points of what critique has been given to that picture is a big part of the learning curve for people wanting to know how to give critique, both go hand in hand imho. Well I will finish with the usual. Ho! Hum! :D
 
Also, if folks think the critique on here can be harsh, go put something on PhotoSIG. They call a spade a spade over there, I can tell you :D
 
... any photo posted in the feedback section is there for just that ... don't be afraid to comment as it will be appreciated..

... people posting critique on your photos are doing it to help ... not trying to attack you or make you feel bad, so try and take any critique you receive well, even if negative
Matt
An awful lot of comment that I've noticed has been very subjective and thus perhaps of less value than a more considered critique. Saying things like "I like this" or "no2 doesn't do it for me" isn't very illuminating! Any 'negativity' needs to be CONSTRUCTIVE! So it's a delicate area by default, and harder I think on-line than face to face.
 
I think splitting the crit forums would be the way forward. Facebook/flickr type section for those who just want to post pics for 'Nice shot; comments and a more serious section for those who want proper comments on their work. I k now thats the antithesis of what this place should be about and I don't like it much, but it seems it may be a reasonable way forward.

Yes, I wholeheartedly agree.

I enjoy giving a serious critique to an image that has been well considered. But you know, it can take a long time to do, an hour perhaps if it's *really* being considered?

I don't generally give critiques like that out, because it's hard to know if the person *really* wants to hear that.
 
Good critique helps both the original photographer and the person giving crit improve. Being able to look at a photo say what you like, what you don't and what could be improved & why helps both parties.

That said, the thing that gets my goat is when people ask for and then ignore crit. Not even a simple thank you for taking the time

All true (y) I'm not sure how we will ever get past people that don't acknowledge members that have taken the time to respond to their threads, possibly with the new software for the forum the default settings should be that members get notifications to threads they start...

"That's how I wanted it to look"
"Well, the customer/client liked it, so that's all that matters"
"Why are you picking on me?"
"No, my screen is calibrated correctly, YOURS isn't"
"I wasn't asking for critique!!" (although posted in a critique section)

These are what get my goat... and we've all seen them... asking for critique/feedback, and this is the response. This puts people off...

All annoyances Bethy, these are defensive responses to critique that I personally hate, if I'm honest members who respond to critique in such a way should loose their right to post photos for a week or two, if judged by a moderator to have acted out of spirit of the forum, alas that would make the forum a quite draconian place and off putting to newbies which is certainly not a direction I'd like to see things go at all :(

Too little too late Matt imho.

It shouldn't be though Rich, if we all can make an effort or at least a good number of us I'm confident that we can turn the situation around, it's not going to be easy, it's not going to be quick but surely it's worth doing (y)

I agree but am getting disheartened by what appears to be an increasing amount of photographers who simply wish to 'collect' images or tick them off their list, queuing up with all the others on Ashness Jetty to point their lens down the jetty at sunset, (are there 3 well worn holes in the wood?) or do a long exposure outside Westminster with a bus, or any number of increasingly cliche images. They will then want critique and their shot is invariably a poor copy of what's being done a trillion times before and even if its a good copy it is just that a copy, lacking in imagination, creativity and originality. I have no time to post critique for such shots but sadly have to accept (and it's probably my problem) that a lot of photographers want to do this.

There is certainly an issue of cliched shots, but I don't thing that should stop them being worth critiquing per se, in fact it should make it easier as it shouldn't be hard to point to better example shots as part of critique if that is your style, there's nothing wrong with if your confident offering advice on improved settings etc

You don't need to be an expert to offer positive reinforcement.

If you see a picture you like, you can say why you like it - perhaps you like the colours, or the shapes - without going into technical detail. All constructive critique - positive and negative - is useful, irrespective of the skill level of the critique-er. I do think that negative critique needs to be more carefully handled.

After all, restaurant critics don't have to be expert chefs, are they?

Excellent points Peter, some people don't like or aren't confident in being negative, I don't have a problem with that but as you've rightly said and this is my kind of point in the thread it's all well liking the photo but please say why you like it (y)

An awful lot of comment that I've noticed has been very subjective and thus perhaps of less value than a more considered critique. Saying things like "I like this" or "no2 doesn't do it for me" isn't very illuminating! Any 'negativity' needs to be CONSTRUCTIVE! So it's a delicate area by default, and harder I think on-line than face to face.

And this is exactly what this thread is about personally I want to see the end of benign comments that add nothing to help the person posting for critique, nice shot or indeed does nothing for me etc add nothing to help the opening poster improve there photography or understand where they are getting it right/wrong as the case may be...

Yes, I wholeheartedly agree.

I enjoy giving a serious critique to an image that has been well considered. But you know, it can take a long time to do, an hour perhaps if it's *really* being considered?

I don't generally give critiques like that out, because it's hard to know if the person *really* wants to hear that.

I love to give critique and receive it and there are certainly different styles to giving critique however it's worth considering where different styles are warranted
 
I don't post imagies often as I don't feel they are good enough. But I appreciate any comments good ro bad I listen (read) and try and take on board what is said. Maybe I should post more of my images that way I will improve quicker.

I've never felt qualified to offer crit on others photos as I still feel I have a lot to learn. I would love to be able to help others but don't want to be talking rubbish (for a change)

On a similar subject I've been a member of a local club for a botu a year and I am amazed at how often a judge will priase a print or dpi up and then give ti low marks or the other way round.

(Although last night I had 2 prints entered and both got good comments and both did well with 17 and 19 out of 20 so I'm feeling happy today)
 
On a similar subject I've been a member of a local club for a botu a year and I am amazed at how often a judge will priase a print or dpi up and then give ti low marks or the other way round.

Off topic - but I believe in my very limited experience that this could be down to the fact they're supposed to award an even spread of mark? So there isn't room at the top for everyone, basically.
 
I think splitting the crit forums would be the way forward. Facebook/flickr type section for those who just want to post pics for 'Nice shot; comments and a more serious section for those who want proper comments on their work. I k now thats the antithesis of what this place should be about and I don't like it much, but it seems it may be a reasonable way forward.

Isn't that what Photos for Pleasure is all about?
 
Isn't that what Photos for Pleasure is all about?

It is, but it doesn't really work. I mean splitting each crit forum. So for example a people section for people to go 'nice shot' on their kids photos and one for proper crit.
 
I don't post imagies often as I don't feel they are good enough. But I appreciate any comments good ro bad I listen (read) and try and take on board what is said. Maybe I should post more of my images that way I will improve quicker.

I've never felt qualified to offer crit on others photos as I still feel I have a lot to learn. I would love to be able to help others but don't want to be talking rubbish (for a change)

On a similar subject I've been a member of a local club for a botu a year and I am amazed at how often a judge will priase a print or dpi up and then give ti low marks or the other way round.

(Although last night I had 2 prints entered and both got good comments and both did well with 17 and 19 out of 20 so I'm feeling happy today)

Mark feeling your images aren't good enough to post is a shame, because the help you should get from putting those images up should really help you improve at a much faster pace than you ever will just trying to improve on your own...it's going to be disheartening have your photos pulled apart which is actually a shame as that's not the effect people doing to critique want to have but it's only natural as you have a bond/relationship with your photos but so long as you remember it's all helping and learn from it improvement will come thick and fast, I've seen it happen a lot on the forum, so come on get posting :thumbs:

Isn't that what Photos for Pleasure is all about?


It is, but it doesn't really work. I mean splitting each crit forum. So for example a people section for people to go 'nice shot' on their kids photos and one for proper crit.

This is a big issue, and I suspect for this campaign to be successful more threads will get moved to photos for pleasure :(
 
There's been a few comments on this thread about using the report button, that's fine in severe incidents or outright bad manners etc. but perhaps we should hear from the mods on this matter ad get their thoughts, I can see them being inundated with reports that are simply due to someone's ego not being massaged quite enough, or even being destroyed by negative comments.

Regarding crit, I agree totally with giving polite constructive criticism no matter how hard it might sound, how on earth is anyone going to improve if we are allowed to continue producing bad images and we are not told. However, I try to find a positive to finish with, this is pure common courtesy. Its important to consider how the OP is going to feel reading that their masterpiece is in fact rubbish, so politeness and considered wording is important, but equally important is that we do try to offer help or opinions and tell them why its rubbish and what we suggest to improve. Equally its important to give positive comments where they are due and give a reason why we like it.

The forum is a good one as Kipax said, but I disagree about it being right. You (Kipax) can go back a few years of your membership and I am sure you will agree that in days gone by, the standard and regularity of constructive criticism was far higher than of now, so is it wrong to try to reintroduce the same quality and enthusiasm. Its a shame that a good number of members from previous years no longer take an active part, and I a thinking of one in particular who had a lot of technical knowledge and was a huge help to me when I first started, and he helped numerous members to improve, and wrote a few instructional posts too. I am still in touch with him and he has said that he doesn't bother coming on now for just the reasons that have been discussed I this thread already.

We all have a preferred genre so tend to stick with the areas that we know, understand, or just like, that was the forum divides itself up into groups while still remaining a large gathering of like minded members. It would be unreasonable to expect anyone to comment in every area other than their favourites, but that is an advantage and not a loss to the forum in my opinion.
 
There's been a few comments on this thread about using the report button, that's fine in severe incidents or outright bad manners etc. but perhaps we should hear from the mods on this matter ad get their thoughts, I can see them being inundated with reports that are simply due to someone's ego not being massaged quite enough, or even being destroyed by negative comments.

I've never used the Report button and never will. Can't be done with running telling tales (or those who do). Yeh, I know the rules before somebody jumps in blah blah, but there's too many cry babies go pushing the report button (as Trev eludes to) for utter trivial pish!!!
 
I've never used the Report button and never will. Can't be done with running telling tales (or those who do). Yeh, I know the rules before somebody jumps in blah blah, but there's too many cry babies go pushing the report button (as Trev eludes to) for utter trivial pish!!!

reported ;)
 
There's been a few comments on this thread about using the report button, that's fine in severe incidents or outright bad manners etc. but perhaps we should hear from the mods on this matter ad get their thoughts, I can see them being inundated with reports that are simply due to someone's ego not being massaged quite enough, or even being destroyed by negative comments.

Regarding crit, I agree totally with giving polite constructive criticism no matter how hard it might sound, how on earth is anyone going to improve if we are allowed to continue producing bad images and we are not told. However, I try to find a positive to finish with, this is pure common courtesy. Its important to consider how the OP is going to feel reading that their masterpiece is in fact rubbish, so politeness and considered wording is important, but equally important is that we do try to offer help or opinions and tell them why its rubbish and what we suggest to improve. Equally its important to give positive comments where they are due and give a reason why we like it.

The forum is a good one as Kipax said, but I disagree about it being right. You (Kipax) can go back a few years of your membership and I am sure you will agree that in days gone by, the standard and regularity of constructive criticism was far higher than of now, so is it wrong to try to reintroduce the same quality and enthusiasm. Its a shame that a good number of members from previous years no longer take an active part, and I a thinking of one in particular who had a lot of technical knowledge and was a huge help to me when I first started, and he helped numerous members to improve, and wrote a few instructional posts too. I am still in touch with him and he has said that he doesn't bother coming on now for just the reasons that have been discussed I this thread already.

We all have a preferred genre so tend to stick with the areas that we know, understand, or just like, that was the forum divides itself up into groups while still remaining a large gathering of like minded members. It would be unreasonable to expect anyone to comment in every area other than their favourites, but that is an advantage and not a loss to the forum in my opinion.

Indeed it should be clear that report should always be considered as the last option, I'd hate to think of the green team being inundated with petty bickering, they get enough of that from classifieds...as to members gravitating to specific areas of interest I think that is only natural I know myself I rarely venture into sections of the forum that hold little interest to me, There are sections on the forum that I only ever used to comment on when I found a thread in the UAPs, these days I still look at UAPs but via a different way and only really look at the sections of interest to me :)
 
For me, there are a few reasons I don't offer much C&C. Mainly, by the time I see a post, what I could offer has already been said. The other biggy for me is that I don't really like looking at screen sized shots or having to scroll around an image to see it - give me a decent sized print and I'm happy (and indecently large is even better!) I try to offer advice when I can but my expertise doesn't cover all the aspects. I'm probably better at the gear side, although since controlling my GAS a bit, I'm probably a bit behind on that now.
 
Of course getting out there and shooting is the way to improve you cannot improve if you don't take photos, but by your logic of there not being the Internet a few years ago to get feedback, does that mean that we should ignore it now that we do have that resource available to us?

And who is saying that people have to critique stuff that don't know about, there are genres I've little to no interest in such as sports or people photography as a result I rarely visit or comment on such threads, we are however lucky on this forum to have extremely talented photographers covering probably every genre imaginable

If you don't want to try and make the community that little bit better which is what I'd love to try and help achieve with this that is of course your prerogative

Bit harsh to say i don't want to make the community a little better,because i have a different opinion to your :)
 
I agree with the sentiments of constructive criticism. Not going to say anymore, am off to post a crit.

Spooks
 
For me, there are a few reasons I don't offer much C&C. Mainly, by the time I see a post, what I could offer has already been said. The other biggy for me is that I don't really like looking at screen sized shots or having to scroll around an image to see it - give me a decent sized print and I'm happy (and indecently large is even better!) I try to offer advice when I can but my expertise doesn't cover all the aspects. I'm probably better at the gear side, although since controlling my GAS a bit, I'm probably a bit behind on that now.

I can understand where your coming from Nod, that said you don't like to scroll round the screen I can understand these we all have our ways of working, I'm fairly sure however that when you do comment on thread you are able to offer good help I know this as you've commented on my threads, all this is really about is making it the norm rather than the exception


I wonder if we could make a group of members who would be willing to dedicate a little bit of time each time they log on to critique in specific areas...not even sure if or how it could be worked but it's a possibility
 
I have been known to look at the full size file on Flickr and be tempted to print an A3+ for a look at a big print! If I ever succumb to the temptation (or be very tempted!), I'll offer the resulting print to the poster if I think the photo (and my print of it!) is good enough.
 
The new forum layout and buttons seems to make it impossible (for me) to go to the critique sections easily.
It's just not like it used to be.
 
The new forum layout and buttons seems to make it impossible (for me) to go to the critique sections easily.
It's just not like it used to be.


I'm curious, in what way? You click on "Forums" at the top of the page (as you did before) and it lists all the individual forums in the same order as before, what's different?
 
As someone who's been responsible for a member throwing a massive tantrum and leaving :eek:, I tend not to critique much at all. Sometimes I'll be asked by PM and sometimes a related thread in another section drags me towards a critique thread. But it's time consuming and goes badly so often that it's a bit too much like hard work sometimes. It really shouldn't be like that.

I was gobsmacked when I got the response I did, I might have been a bit blunt regarding some OOT PP, but I gave constructive advice too.
 
Et tu, Brutus? (er, Phil!)

So maybe we should have a 'Flaming Section' where everyone is allowed to say their piece without being called rude or be pulled up by the mods.
Pull no punches with no risk of backlash.

It can be difficult to offer constructive criticism on the internet with no face to face interaction.
You may say something that is well intentioned, but comes across as crass.
 
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As someone who's been responsible for a member throwing a massive tantrum and leaving :eek:, I tend not to critique much at all. Sometimes I'll be asked by PM and sometimes a related thread in another section drags me towards a critique thread. But it's time consuming and goes badly so often that it's a bit too much like hard work sometimes. It really shouldn't be like that.

I was gobsmacked when I got the response I did, I might have been a bit blunt regarding some OOT PP, but I gave constructive advice too.

Your right Phil it's not the way it should be, personally I've never had an issue with a blunt tone so long as it remains constructive, I suspect I remember the thread your referring to ;) I'm fairly confident in saying there was nothing wrong in what you said at all...

It's such a shame that giving critique has become hard work :( but again I can understand how it can get that way, especially with wedding and the like as people it seems dont want to be told they've got a wedding wrong (that's a gross generalisation of course)
 
Et tu, Brutus? (er, Phil!)

So maybe we should have a 'Flaming Section' where everyone is allowed to say their piece without being called rude or be pulled up by the mods.
Pull no punches with no risk of backlash.

It can be difficult to offer constructive criticism on the internet with no face to face interaction.
You may say something that is well intentioned, but comes across as crass.

Personally I have to say no to that idea, as with the best of intentions stuff said in such a section would spill out into the open forum and result in spiteful, bitter posting...and I suspect just create even more work for the green team, plus for me it goes against the ethos of the forum being a friendly place
 
Problem is that some of us, generally from the grim north, can be a bit, blunt, shall we say. We tend not to dress things up. Now that pees some people off, but it is how we would speak to each other face to face, so it`s not an internet thing.

When I met Brash, we spoke to each other as we do on here, same when I met Diddy Dave, Gary,Lee and many others. I`m sure Phil and I would be the same.

We don`t do it on purpose, it is just how we are.
 
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