BBC defend clarkson

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Being offended by racism is NOT being offended on someone else's behalf. Bloody hell.

If I don't belong to the race that the racism is aimed at, by definition I am taking offence on someone else's behalf.

I must add, its a nursery rhyme being sung, with no malicious tone etc. I think people are getting the wrong end of the stick, or perhaps want too
 
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. Even a celebrated and decorated Airman named his dog 'N'
.

Guy Gibson - the dog in question got run over and killed on the night of the dams raid, and he ask his cheif to bury the dog at midnight because there was a good chance that he could have been going into the raid at the same time. I'm sure in the 40s it was a very different world

I remember 20 years back I worked with a guy who had been a planter in Malawi (when it was still a british posession) , he once introduced a bunch of african visitors from bird life international to me by shouting "Peter , theres a bunch of fuzzy wuzzys here to see you" :runaway:
 
If I don't belong to the race that the racism is aimed at, by definition I am taking offence on someone else's behalf.

I must add, its a nursery rhyme being sung, with no malicious tone etc. I think people are getting the wrong end of the stick, or perhaps want too

No you are not. To be offended by racism is the correct moral standpoint. Racism is disgusting and wrong in all it's forms.

You have a very simplistic view of the world.
 
You have a very simplistic view of the world.

In your opinion. Try to refrain from making personal remarks please. Thank you.

I try not to take offence at things/comments with no intended malice and ones not aimed at me. People, in my opinion, who take offence at any "ism" they can find, are usually pugnacious individuals looking to be angry at something. Life, in my opinion, is too short.
 
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In your opinion. Try to refrain from making personal remarks please. Thank you.

Oh behave. It was not a personal remark or insult. It's a statement of fact.
 
For saying ni**er. Really, you think that's all he did wrong?

a lot of black guys say nigger about 25 times per sentence , both in a freindly way and as a derogatory comment to other blacks - come to that if you listen to eminem (who's white last time i checked )- he'll use the word about 8 times per record , but no one sees a problem with that.

saying the word isnt the issue - its the attitude that matters

likewise tom is an offensive word to use to a black man (it implies he wants to be white - ie uncle tom) , ditto coconut, bounty bar etc , equally calling a black man Boy is highly offensive (as much probably more than nigger) - but would anyone get upset if Clasrkson said " I have a young boy called tom, and i bought him a bounty bar because he loves the coconut filling" ?

by the same token Bitch is an extremly offensive way to describe a woman - but its fine to say I have a great dog, she's a bitch named... - its not the word its self its how its used.
 
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How can anyone actually like this buffoon, yes the program is slightly entertaining, but how do you not see through Clarkson, do you really believe that is how he is in his every day life, he is neighbours and friends with leading politicians, do you think this is how he acts when hosting dinner party's for the politicians.

He is acting up to the lowest denominator, personally i find it pathetic that a 54 year old man acts like an adolescent teenager an is adored by the nation for it.

Do you not think he is well aware of these words he is using and the divide in discussion it will cause,
its no different to the many comedians on tv that are constantly pushing the boundaries of what is acceptable, they are well aware that they are causing discussions and that those discussions are causing a divide between those that will take offence and those that wont.

This discussion isn't a discussion about people getting offended by words, its a discussion about basic human rights and how most of you are happily giving up other peoples human rights at the drop of a hat...

Flame away...
 
Being offended by racism is NOT being offended on someone else's behalf. Bloody hell.
Yes it is!

and if you really believe that statement I believe you are fuelling the racism and there is nothing you or anyone else can say to change my mind.
 
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Wow, lucky for me when I moved to South Africa when I was only 9 that I had a thicker skin than most of you.
I was called Soetie (Salty), Soet Piel (Salty Penis), Rooinek (Red Neck), Pomey and numerous other names jsut because I was british. If I was as easily offended as some of you I would have been a snivelling wreck.

As it happens I turned out okay. I'm not scared for life, I don't have any grudges, but I did learn some goods names to call them back and in those days if someone got to far up your nose you just punched them in theirs.
 
a lot of black guys say nigger about 25 times per sentence , both in a freindly way and as a derogatory comment to other blacks - come to that if you listen to eminem (who's white last time i checked )- he'll use the word about 8 times per record , but no one sees a problem with that.

Whilst not a particular fan of eminem I have heard a few of his, I have kids, and I'm not aware of him using the word, certainly not 8 times a record.
 
Being offended by racism is NOT being offended on someone else's behalf. Bloody hell.

it is if you're not black (or whatever colour the word used refers to )

If I greet my oldest friend, delroy as "Boy" or "Nigger" thats not racism its badinage- and he's not offended by it - just as i'm equally unoffended by him using terms like greymeat/snowflake etc. If it offended the other neither of us would do it.

If some overly sensitve white person overhears us and gets offended because they've heardf a bad word - then they are clearly getting offended on someone elses behalf

Likewise our freind Javid is a pakistani - he refers to himself as a Paki , and his justifcation is - well tadjiks come from tadjikstan, uzbeks come from uzbekistan, afghans come from afghanistan - i come from pakistan so what does that make me ? (Okay techinacally theres a difference because the others are tribes where as Paki means pure and came about at the time of the partion from india - so what it makes him is a muslim from the indian subcontinent , but that isn't a very convenient short hand)
 
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Whilst not a particular fan of eminem I have heard a few of his, I have kids, and I'm not aware of him using the word, certainly not 8 times a record.

Sample lyric " Niggers they go and talk, Niggers can go and hate, we established this way before we became mates" (That's twice in one sentence)

he even wrote a song called "Nigga"

the first verse of which is


I love niggas, I love niggas 'cause niggas are me
And I should only love that presents me
I love to see niggas go through changes
I love to see niggas shoot through s***
And to all niggas that do it I love

I'm not saying he's a racist to be clear - he clearly isnt - that song was making the same point I am - its not the word, its how you use it
 
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Yes it is!

and if you really believe that statement I believe you are fuelling the racism and there is nothing you or anyone else can say to change my mind.
[PLEASE DON'T TRY TO BYPASS THE SWEAR FILTER], sorry but [PLEASE DON'T TRY TO BYPASS THE SWEAR FILTER], why can't i be offend by racist behaviour and language, in fact why can't anyone be offended by racist language. It offends me because it is offensive, or at least to most decent people anyway
 
- so what it makes him is a muslim from the indian subcontinent , but that isn't a very convenient short hand)
I guess that makes him a MiS (have I just invented another racist word? )
 
it is if you're not black (or whatever colour the word used refers to )

If I greet my oldest friend, delroy as "Boy" or "Nigger" thats not racism its badinage- and he's not offended by it - just as i'm equally unoffended by him using terms like greymeat/snowflake etc. If it offended the other neither of us would do it.

If some overly sensitve white person overhears us and gets offended because they've heardf a bad word - then they are clearly getting offended on someone elses behalf

Likewise our freind Javid is a pakistani - he refers to himself as a Paki , and his justifcation is - well tadjiks come from tadjikstan, uzbeks come from uzbekistan, afghans come from afghanistan - i come from pakistan so what does that make me ? (Okay techinacally theres a difference because the others are tribes where as Paki means pure and came about at the time of the partion from india - so what it makes him is a muslim from the indian subcontinent , but that isn't a very convenient short hand)
Cant find that Pete, interested in knowing which song, genuinely :)
 
[PLEASE DON'T TRY TO BYPASS THE SWEAR FILTER], sorry but [PLEASE DON'T TRY TO BYPASS THE SWEAR FILTER], why can't i be offend by racist behaviour and language, in fact why can't anyone be offended by racist language. It offends me because it is offensive, or at least to most decent people anyway
TBH I would say that there are 2 separate issues raised there.
If a "non-indigenous Brit" was thrown off a bus or out of a restaurant,
because of the colour of their skin, I think most people would be appalled.
Some people also are offended by the words
c*** f****r mother f****r and more.
(but possibly not as many these days as would have 30 / 40 years ago.)

but we don't get endless threads on TP, news paper articles etc.
Because someone was was over heard on a bus saying you are a f*****g c***.
Just a thought.
 
TBH I would say that there are 2 separate issues raised there.
If a "non-indigenous Brit" was thrown off a bus or out of a restaurant,
because of the colour of their skin, I think most people would be appalled.
Some people also are offended by the words
c*** f****e mother f****e and more.
(but possibly not as many these days as would have 30 / 40 years ago.)

but we don't get endless threads on TP, news paper articles etc.
Because someone was was over heard on a bus saying you are a f*****g c***.
Just a thought.
In all respect Chris were talking about racism not general insult. People use derogatory language based solely on the colour of their skin or race of who they are insulting. If I was to overhear somebody calling me a f*****g c*** they'd probably be right ;)
 
nope its Eminem's song - although 50 cent is on Eminem's label so he may also rap it - theres a lot of interchange of lyrics between 50 cent, obie trice, G unit, eminem, and Dr Dre
, and others in that 'stable'

I can't remember which song the 1st lyric i quoted was off hand - its on the same LP as just loose it , yellow brick road etc though the name escapes me (edit: google tells me the Album is Encore) and i can't be arsed to go out to lthe car to look
 
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nope its Eminem's song - although 50 cent is on Eminem's label so he may also rap it - theres a lot of interchange of lyrics between 50 cent, obie trice, G unit, eminem, and Dr Dre
, and others in that 'stable'

I can't remember which song the 1st lyric i quoted was off hand - its on the same LP as just loose it , yellow brick road etc though the name escapes me and i can't be arsed to go out to lthe car to look
Its 50cents featured on an eminem track. You can tell by eminem's lyric plus I've googled it :)
 
In all respect Chris were talking about racism not general insult. People use derogatory language based solely on the colour of their skin or race. If I was to overhear somebody calling me a f*****g c*** they'd probably be right ;)
I take your point, Steve,
but also that was part of my point.
Is there truly a difference between insults, based on the fact that you don't like someone, for what ever reason,
(Maybe they have ginger hair, or no hair for that matter.
They maybe quite sensitive to the fact that they are bald, for example.)
And you / we call them a bald c***.
That's offensive surely?

And is it any different than someone taking offence, just because they have a different ethnic back ground to you / us / who ever,
and "you" (whoever) calls them a paki or polac etc.
I certainly don't get offended by the use of the word brit, even if its prefixed with "you f*****g"

As above they are just words,
Actions, however, are a different matter.
 
If I don't belong to the race that the racism is aimed at, by definition I am taking offence on someone else's behalf.


That assumes that racism doesn't affect you because you're not of the race being discussed. Inevitably it does though, as we all have to live in the same society.. and ultimately, the same planet - which gets smaller every decade.

Racism isn't about your personal opinions... it's not even about who is to blame.. we're all to blame. Black people are just as racist as white people... Ignorance is what unites racist people and this stupid obsession with defining difference. No one has names for white people with blue eyes and brown eyes... however, we are disparaging against ginger hair. Why? Because you can't decide which is the odd one out with eyes, that's why.. there are just as many of each. That sounds trivial, but it's probably not to a kid with ginger hair being bullied at school, for no other reason than being different. Children are TAUGHT this behaviour.. it's not natural.

So long as race is an issue, there will be racism. And pretending that making jokes about race IS not making an issue is just [PLEASE DON'T TRY TO BYPASS THE SWEAR FILTER]. If there was no issue of race, then such jokes wouldn't even have a context in which to operate, and therefore wouldn't even be recognised as such.


I'm not suggesting we refuse to even acknowledge the colour of someone's skin either before some smart arse suggests that's what I'm saying. If I had to describe a black man to the police, I'd say he was black. I'd be doing it in the same way that I'd be saying to the police, "It was a red car that caused the accident". My Dad once said during the Olympics many years ago that black people are better at Javelin because their joints are different, and thats' because they evolved to throw spears. I sh*t you not. My Dad's a clever man, but he was merely regurgitating what he'd been told as a child, and no one had challenged him, and he's essentially uneducated, so he saw no harm in the comment. No.. the world didn't stop, and no one died, but really.... why perpetuate the myths surrounding race? And it DOES effect people outside of the race being disparaged. How ****ing sick and tired do you think I am of people assuming that my wife is passive in bed and making drunken jokes about it when their p1ssed about how "they" will do anything asked of them because that's how Asian women are portrayed in Movies/TV/Porn How sick and fed up am I of people talking to ME about her when she's f***ing well stood right next to me because they assume she's "foreign". I never got this when living in London... but when I moved up North, I get this relatively often. Why is THAT? Because where I live in Lancashire is just not even remotely cosmopolitan, and most people just don't really have ideas about other races other than what they're told, therefore either distrust them, or concentrate on the differences. Why does my wife get so much hassle if she goes out clubbing with friends? The white women she's with don't, but she gets blatant sexual abuse because of the myths of Asian female sexuality perpetuated by idiots. She daren't go out clubbing any more. Is that fair? Is that harmless?

I've been the victim of casual racism too. I spent a lot of time in Japan between '97 and '00, and am often in Singapore, and when visiting people, I'M on the receiving end of "What shall I give him for dinner?... does he eat Chinese food?.. can he use chopsticks? It's annoying when I go out to dinner with my in-laws, and have a knife and fork put in front of me when everyone else was given chopsticks and a spoon. No.. it's not the end of the world, but it IS annoying. It never happened in Tokyo or Yokohama BTW... and rarely in Singapore, but once out of the cities you get it. Being called Gaijin etc. "Oh.. you mean the Gaijin sat over there in the corner?" like I wasn't there.... because of course.. white people don't speak Japanese, do they? The more parochial or rural the settings, the greater the ignorance. People in Japan would argue that "Gaijin" is not racist... and that THEY are not being racist when they use it... but why use it at all? Why not just say "Oh, you mean the man sat over there in the corner wearing blue?" I'd would be just as clear who they meant without identifying me as a foreigner. In a different context, I had friends who called me Gaijin in ways that was not even remotely offensive. One only acknowledged the difference, the other was ironically used by friends to ridicule the stupidity of making such distinctions. It's not the WORD... they're just letters... it's the intent and implications that matter.

I've had fathers forbid their daughters to see me because I was western and all western men want only one thing from Japanese girls...... Arrrrgh!"

Just stop arsing around, and let's just get in with living on the same ****ing planet instead of concentrating on differences. White, black, hispanic.... ALL have ignorant racist people, and racism, no matter how harmless is a product of ignorance.. nothing more. If you are racist, you are ignorant. Simple as that.

There are issues here that are not as harmless as people would choose to believe they are. They only choose to believe that they are harmless because to acknowledge that they need to change their behaviour is to admit they are wrong. They also see it as a threat to their "way of life".


If you disagree with any of this, then effectively you're saying that you LIKE the way things are now, where making the odd joke about someone because they are different in ways they have no choice in is just fine. Making a joke about Bankers, or Bishops... fine.. that's just a job, and ultimately, it's a choice someone makes but to make jokes about fat people, or disabled people, or black people - it's just wrong to make jokes about ANY difference when the only thing you're projecting as funny is that fact alone. That's not to say you can't include race in humour... so long as it;s well observed, in context, and isn't necessarily negative. All the wheelchair gags that Peter Kay did for the BBC trailers were hilarious, but at no point would a disabled person find them offensive. There's a subtle difference between offence and observation. One concentrates on the ways in which someone is "other" to them... one just makes light of something that's naturally funny. Being fat, black, gay, disabled by itself is not funny. There are many ways in which we can observe humour in being fat, gay, black or disabled though.... invariably, calling them names is NOT the way to do it. That's just neither clever, or funny. It's just sad.

Just as Pete said further up the thread. He can use nigger around black friends... but because there will be a personal bond that allows such language use, and at no point would the word be used to threaten, alienate, differentiate or otherwise segregate.


Just my musings on the matter. Carry on.
 
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Back in '94 Del and I were both working in a food factory on night shift - he and I were the only british nationals on our team - the others were an iranian refugee, a bosnian, and an isreali who'd left isreal to avoid military service.

The factory was chosen for a equal ops audit, by some govt dept or other ( i can't recall the detail) and the 'surveyor' came on to the factory floor and made a beeline for Del and said to the best of my recollection" As a imigrant have you ever experienced any racisim in the work place, as many people of ethnicity do ? "

He said " Yes "

She said "when"

and he said "just now when you chose me to ask that question , there are 3 imigrants in this room, but I aint one of them, i was born in ealing, but you chose me because of the colour of my skin.... oh and by the way I'm not 'a person of ethnicity' I'm a black man "

Exit one very embarrased interviewer
 
I do love how someone's opinion can change from one thread to another :-)
 
So was Clarkson intent on alienating, discriminating or humiliating people or was he just larking around in the banal way he does? That's the question. I see it as the latter.

But that does alienate and discriminate against people, regardless of his intent.
 
So was Clarkson intent on alienating, discriminating or humiliating people or was he just larking around in the banal way he does? That's the question. I see it as the latter.

Exactly

If he's said for example "the only nigger who'll get to drive this car would be a car theif" then that would be highly racist and he'd have been rightly fired - but he didn't because he isnt and he wasnt (if you see what i mean)

(Incidentally do you remember that police recruitment campaign a few years ago "what do you call a black man in a BMW ?, a police sergeant on patrol" :bang: - talk about badly thought out - that was racist and a lot of people rightly got a metaphorical kicking over it)
 
But that does alienate and discriminate against people, regardless of his intent.

nope - reciting eeny meeny doesnt discriminate against anyone ... and to be honest i doubt it alienated many black people - i'd be prepared to bet that the majority of the furore was "ofended of tunbridge wells "
 
nope - reciting eeny meeny doesnt discriminate against anyone ... and to be honest i doubt it alienated many black people - i'd be prepared to bet that the majority of the furore was "ofended of tunbridge wells "

Oh I agree with that.... I Was referring to the slope thing. Clearly he automatically recited the version he was familiar with... and clearly made an attempt to muffle it at the last minute. That wasn't my point. The slope thing and the Mexican thing though... that was something else.
 
Go on... let's have it.

chill david i suspect this is going to be aimed at me - though i defy ruth to find any thread where ive said something racist (and the grey import thread doesnt count - because that furore wasn't racisim, it was about my suspicions of one particular poster being a shill - his race was irrelevant)
 
Oh I agree with that.... I Was referring to the slope thing. .

yeah that wasnt the best thought out gag ever - to be fair to clarkson its a script so i'd be more inclined to blame the script writer for poor taste. At the same time theres nothing to suggest that the 'oriental person' was in fact anyway ofended or even heard what was said.
 
yeah that wasnt the best thought out gag ever - to be fair to clarkson its a script so i'd be more inclined to blame the script writer for poor taste. At the same time theres nothing to suggest that the 'oriental person' was in fact anyway ofended or even heard what was said.

I'm inclined to agree here... that Clarkson ultimately has been the fall guy for Wilman's poor production decisions.

I've nothing against Clarkson. I watch TG and I read a great deal of his writing. He is involved in some very questionable decisions however, but I'm absolutely convinced they are very carefully orchestrated to sail close to the wind and court controversy rather than personal opinion.
 
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