Baby girl killed in dog attack in Daventry

[SFTPhotography]

Unfortunately we never read about the cause or the circumstances. I bet you that if we did the root cause would be humans.

People make dogs attack children? No, they do not. Dogs are capable of independent thought and action, they are animals, not computers.

The saving of the life could have been probably saved by humans, people could have done more to keep the dog away from the child, or the child away from the dog, but dogs are dogs and this is what they can do. The route cause is the dog, the risk is the dog, mitigating against the risk, thats the owners job.

 

[Gremlin]

But this wasn't the family pet, it belonged to a relative who was looking after the child, as has
been the case in some of the other attacks

 

[SFTPhotography]

But this wasn't the family pet, it belonged to a relative who was looking after the child, as has
been the case in some of the other attacks

Doesn't matter. The relative should have kept their dog away from the child, they should have been more viligant as their dog wouldn't be as familiar with the child as it was not their own child. I hope the dog owner isn't punished, there is no malice here, no intent to harm, its a tragic accident and I hope they avoid criminal proceedings but its a lesson to us all, if you have dogs, or entrust your children to people that have dogs, think about it, think about the people who have the dogs and think about the dog they have. Even my ex said on her FB she wanted her niece to come over more often but her SiL was a reluctant due to their Rottie.

 

[Cobra]

Her dog is bloody wild mate, she, probably isn't as good/diligent an owner as you. She is now, but she'd leave it caged IMHO way too long, it would destroy her furniture, the postie was scared to come by the house etc. I think its settled down the now, but I do worry a bit even though the child is not mine and we split up a while ago. Still keep in touch.

I don't know the dog or your ex, but going on the comments you posted in that quote,
I'd certainly think twice.
In fact, I wouldn't own a dog that "appeared" to have the kind of attitude, that you seem to be describing.
I'll ask you a question, how do you feel about the statement, "There are no bad dogs, just bad owners?"

I'll ask a question, would your kids have been less safe without the dogs you had?

I did post something a little while back on thread, where this sort of thing came up.
The abridged version was, that the GSD actually ran to my son's side, while he was on his bike,
and some yards in front of me, when he was approached by a stranger with a dog.
the dog was "floored and stood over" while facing the stranger.
Until I got there, just a few seconds, admittedly.
Who knows what the out come may have been,
or the strangers intentions, but you what they say, animals have a 6th sense

I see a lot of comments on the social media stuff, and people get out raged by these dog attacks. I am particularly anti dog, I do not like them,

I'd noticed

but so many do but are small kids, dogs really a good mix. You do hear of these attacks, at least 2 a year I reckon but there might be a lot more less serious ones but still quite ugly.
This one is bad, in particular as the adult was aware of it, but tried but failed to contain it. Should people with dogs learn a lot more of how to contain a situation if one develops?

As Ingrid was was saying above it appears that there are more than that a year.
And I agree that there should be tighter controls, but how you would do that, I don't know.
We already know that licencing / chipping doesn't work as only the responsible owners do both.

Being perfectly honest, I don't see how an adult could actually stop an attack that had already started,
on all but the smallest of breeds, as it would be all over very very quickly.
Dogs are by nature, predators, and some at least, still seem to have that primeval instinct,
no matter how far they are "removed" from wolves, by breeding.

I'm not about to lecture anyone how to train a dog,
but having studied animal behaviour I have my own ideas and some would strongly disagree,
with my methods, I use its own pack instinct against it, to make sure that it knows who's the boss.

(they are not beating it into submission btw, you hardly need any physical contact
but (for example) I have on occasions, bitten the odd ear, or two
And all mine have turned out well rounded and well behaved

 

[Gremlin]

People make dogs attack children? No, they do not. Dogs are capable of independent thought and action, they are animals, not computers.

The saving of the life could have been probably saved by humans, people could have done more to keep the dog away from the child, or the child away from the dog, but dogs are dogs and this is what they can do. The route cause is the dog, the risk is the dog, mitigating against the risk, thats the owners job.

No the root cause is normally lack of socialisation and training by the human who owns it.
I've had dogs all my life, both my kids were bought up with them and with exception everyone of my
dogs would protect the kids with their lives.
My girls used to take my GSD out into the woods with them when they played with their mates, they had a camp well off the beaten
track. A neighbour came and complained about the dog's behaviour when he went over to where the kids were, he had no reason to and the dog
apparently barked at him. I told him to stay away from the kids

 

[Cobra]

A neighbour came and complained about the dog's behaviour when he went over to where the kids were, he had no reason to and the dog
apparently barked at him. I told him to stay away from the kids

Kinda proves / re-enforces the point I made earlier

 

[viv1969]

True - I wasn't saying it isn't... but I was more meaning the cause of death and the way the level of pain before death. Put it this way, if I could choose between the two forms of death for me, either my neck snapping and instantanous death in a car crash, or being mauled by a dog, I'd pick the former for me every time.

And of course there's nothing inbetween.

 

[Gremlin]

Kinda proves / re-enforces the point I made earlier

Exactly, and he was not only protecting his own, he was doing the same with other kids, they had become his pack
at that time

 

[SFTPhotography]

I don't know the dog or your ex, but going on the comments you posted in that quote,
I'd certainly think twice.
In fact, I wouldn't own a dog that "appeared" to have the kind of attitude, that you seem to be describing.
I'll ask you a question, how do you feel about the statement, "There are no bad dogs, just bad owners?"

Its a bit like guns don't kill people, people do. It is true in the guns case. However, dogs aren't inate machinery, they are capable of acting on their own. A gun can be only operated by a person. A dog is capable of its free thought...yes the owner has a huge input to the dogs behaviour pattern, but I believe its a case of both nature and nurture.

I'll ask you a question, there is no such thing as bad children, only bad parents. Think about the Jamie Bulgar case, I just think some beings (animals, people) are pre ordained to be bad, and others good.

So I will move your post about a bit relay this back as this is telling.

Dogs are by nature, predators, and some at least, still seem to have that primeval instinct,
no matter how far they are "removed" from wolves, by breeding.

That's the good and bad about them. The good for the reason below

I did post something a little while back on thread, where this sort of thing came up.
The abridged version was, that the GSD actually ran to my son's side, while he was on his bike,
and some yards in front of me, when he was approached by a stranger with a dog.
the dog was "floored and stood over" while facing the stranger.
Until I got there, just a few seconds, admittedly.
Who knows what the out come may have been,
or the strangers intentions, but you what they say, animals have a 6th sense .

The bad, well, err for this thread starting.

As Ingrid was was saying above it appears that there are more than that a year.
And I agree that there should be tighter controls, but how you would do that, I don't know.
We already know that licencing / chipping doesn't work as only the responsible owners do both.

I agree the good dog owners, you know the ones who's dogs don't make a menace of themselves out in public, don't attack people unduly and jump at you it is just another hoop to jump through in the same way you'll always have unlicenced drivers driving who circumvent the law.

Being perfectly honest, I don't see how an adult could actually stop an attack that had already started,
on all but the smallest of breeds, as it would be all over very very quickly.

On a small child I suppose so, could you tell the signs it was going to happen, would the dog reveal its predator self before going for the kill. From what I have read about other attacks its very quick. The statement is telling in itself. A big dog is a powerful thing. Short of shooting it I do not know what I would do.

I'm not about to lecture anyone how to train a dog,
but having studied animal behaviour I have my own ideas and some would strongly disagree,
with my methods, I use its own pack instinct against it, to make sure that it knows who's the boss.

(they are not beating it into submission btw, you hardly need any physical contact
but (for example) I have on occasions, bitten the odd ear, or two
And all mine have turned out well rounded and well behaved

I've no a scoobies there but it sounds like they are more hassle than they are worth.

 

[Cg_Girl]

test to determine the breed?? just popped up in my fb news feed

http://www.northamptonchron.co.uk/n...h-old-baby-girl-in-northamptonshire-1-6339486

 

[dejongj]

People make dogs attack children? No, they do not. Dogs are capable of independent thought and action, they are animals, not computers.

The saving of the life could have been probably saved by humans, people could have done more to keep the dog away from the child, or the child away from the dog, but dogs are dogs and this is what they can do. The route cause is the dog, the risk is the dog, mitigating against the risk, thats the owners job.

Actually yes people do make them attack. People do provide the opportunity. You've said it yourself a few posts later, however you just seem to want to have it both ways. A dog is not a human, approaching a situation with human logic doesn't make any sense.

I totally get why Cobra nibbled dogs ears just watch the pack when they are young. See how the adult dogs put the little ones in their place. Asking it nicely to sit and give a paw followed by a roll is nice but won't get you much respect. I don't like lecturing people and don't consider myself as an expert however simple observation is a powerful thing.

The root cause is the opportunity a human is provided. Like in this instance parents leave their young baby with other people and their animal. Then those people provide an opportunity for the dog to attach a baby at 22:30. Why was everyone still up? Why wasn't the dog locked away? Why, why, why, why. Unfortunately we never hear of that side of the story.

Such great responsibilities and trust, unfortunately ended in a tragedy.

 

[Cobra]

Its a bit like guns don't kill people, people do. It is true in the guns case. However, dogs aren't inate machinery, they are capable of acting on their own. A gun can be only operated by a person. A dog is capable of its free thought...

Guns yes I agree 100%
Dogs they act on instinct, and its down to us, to make sure that "instinct"
is the right instinct, ie training, training, socialising, more training, a bit more socialising, and training thrown in for good measure.
unsocialised, untrained dogs, I would agree are a menace, to people and other dogs.
So I repeat my question, or maybe that was a statement, there are no bad dogs, just bad owners. (?)
However, to quantify that a little, I will just briefly touch on genetics, all this damned in-breeding,
to keep some line or "pure" can and will bring out a recessive gene.
Ill try and explain it simply,
That recessive gene may have been dormant, for many years, many generations,
The dog in question may have been from a "fighting line"
many generations ago, no one will ever know I suspect.
two genotypes that both carry the fighting gene "suddenly" and purely by accident (!) breed,
and that recessive gene, is now the dominant gene.
However as I said before, we will never know.

That's the good and bad about them. The good for the reason below
The bad, well, err for this thread starting.

And you asked me if I believed are my kids safer, for having a dog, in that instance the
answer is definitely yes!

I agree the good dog owners, you know the ones who's dogs don't make a menace of themselves out in public, don't attack people unduly and jump at you it is just another hoop to jump through in the same way you'll always have unlicenced drivers driving who circumvent the law.

Absolutely, and I think you will find, that most dog are responsible people.
As I've said before 20 kids playing with 2 GSD's in the park, does not make a headline

On a small child I suppose so, could you tell the signs it was going to happen,

I personally believe so, but you can't watch a dog 24/7
The answer of course is to watch a child 24/7 but all parents know,
this isn't possible either.
Its all about socialisation, that includes the kids as well as the dogs

From what I have read about other attacks its very quick. The statement is telling in itself. A big dog is a powerful thing. Short of shooting it I do not know what I would do.

As I said before, it would be very difficult to "pull off" anything other than the smallest breeds.

I've no a scoobies there but it sounds like they are more hassle than they are worth.

Well I guess that most of the population doesn't agree with you due to the amount of dog owners out there

 

[dejongj]

test to determine the breed?? just popped up in my fb news feed

http://www.northamptonchron.co.uk/n...h-old-baby-girl-in-northamptonshire-1-6339486

I just don't get the focus on the breed. What about parents and granny and their actions?

 

[SFTPhotography]

Then those people provide an opportunity for the dog to attach a baby at 22:30. Why was everyone still up? Why wasn't the dog locked away? Why, why, why, why. Unfortunately we never hear of that side of the story.

Such great responsibilities and trust, unfortunately ended in a tragedy.

So let me get this straight, there is a clear and obvious risk of a dog and a baby in proximity and that proximity is a real hazard to the baby, yet people, by the millions in the UK pro actively own dogs?

I fully agree the dog should have been put away, there is negligence here, but its not malice and if dogs are as pleasant as people say they are, then surely its not an obviously foreseeable outcome? Or if it is a foreseeable outcome, why have the things?

22:30 isn't late to go to bed, its foreseeable they baby was put down in an adjacent room, the adult watching the television whilst the baby slept and the dog maybe napping in the other room or in with the adult and it took a wonder. Who knows, maybe they walked the dog, let it out for a pee/dump and it came in, went beserk.

 

[Cobra]

I totally get why Cobra nibbled dogs ears

Yeah just tenderising it up

I agree with the rest of your post too Jp
Particularly

A dog is not a human, approaching a situation with human logic doesn't make any sense. .

I never subscribed to "Anthropomorphism" either

 

[Cobra]

I just don't get the focus on the breed. What about parents and granny and their actions?

I would suspect reading between the lines, they suspect, that its an "illegal breed"
If proven then "someone" is liable for prosecution

 

[SFTPhotography]

Guns yes I agree 100%
Dogs they act on instinct, and its down to us, to make sure that "instinct"
is the right instinct, ie training, training, socialising, more training, a bit more socialising, and training thrown in for good measure.
unsocialised, untrained dogs, I would agree are a menace, to people and other dogs.
So I repeat my question, or maybe that was a statement, there are no bad dogs, just bad owners. (?)
However, to quantify that a little, I will just briefly touch on genetics, all this damned in-breeding,
to keep some line or "pure" can and will bring out a recessive gene.
Ill try and explain it simply,
That recessive gene may have been dormant, for many years, many generations,
The dog in question may have been from a "fighting line"
many generations ago, no one will ever know I suspect.
two genotypes that both carry the fighting gene "suddenly" and purely by accident (!) breed,
and that recessive gene, is now the dominant gene.
However as I said before, we will never know.


And you asked me if I believed are my kids safer, for having a dog, in that instance the
answer is definitely yes!


Absolutely, and I think you will find, that most dog are responsible people.
As I've said before 20 kids playing with 2 GSD's in the park, does not make a headline



I personally believe so, but you can't watch a dog 24/7
The answer of course is to watch a child 24/7 but all parents know,
this isn't possible either.
Its all about socialisation, that includes the kids as well as the dogs


As I said before, it would be very difficult to "pull off" anything other than the smallest breeds.

Well I guess that most of the population doesn't agree with you due to the amount of dog owners out there

Majority don't own dogs, maybe over 1/3 households have one, but not over 2/4 house holds.

re socialising of kids, dogs sure. But there are bad kids, bad dogs out there. You can try your best with both, but a few will slip through the net sadly.

 

[SFTPhotography]

I would suspect reading between the lines, they suspect, that its an "illegal breed"
If proven then "someone" is liable for prosecution

This will be interesting how that plays out.

 

[Gremlin]

It won't, it's happened before and nothing is ever done about it, TBH you can't prove a dog breed with DNA testing unless you know the parents.

Just as an example of dog/kid interactions
I was out today in a place where dogs aren't allowed, as I came out there are too youngish kids I'd say 7 & 10 with a spaniel type
on a lead, the younger one was picking handfuls of gravel and dropping on the dogs back, older one was dragging it around, dog didn't
look happy, who would have got the blame if it turned on the kids ?
I was about to tell them to stop wen the parents appeared behind, not a word was said though they must have seen

 

[Gremlin]

However, to quantify that a little, I will just briefly touch on genetics, all this damned in-breeding,
to keep some line or "pure" can and will bring out a recessive gene.
Ill try and explain it simply,
That recessive gene may have been dormant, for many years, many generations,
The dog in question may have been from a "fighting line"
many generations ago, no one will ever know I suspect.
two genotypes that both carry the fighting gene "suddenly" and purely by accident (!) breed,
and that recessive gene, is now the dominant gene.
However as I said before, we will never know.

I've had one such dog, a rescue taken in at a year old, for a breed rescue.
He as prone to sudden bouts of aggression for no reason, vet and behavioural checks
suggested it was a brain imbalance, looking at his pedigree, same dogs used on both Dam & Sire's sides
They call it line breeding, I call in inbreeding.
Not a dangerous breed or one known for it, a gun dog HPR type

 

[SFTPhotography]

It won't, it's happened before and nothing is ever done about it, TBH you can't prove a dog breed with DNA testing unless you know the parents.

Just as an example of dog/kid interactions
I was out today in a place where dogs aren't allowed, as I came out there are too youngish kids I'd say 7 & 10 with a spaniel type
on a lead, the younger one was picking handfuls of gravel and dropping on the dogs back, older one was dragging it around, dog didn't
look happy, who would have got the blame if it turned on the kids ?
I was about to tell them to stop wen the parents appeared behind, not a word was said though they must have seen

I might have politely reminded the parents it was a no dog area. I am a firm believer people should adhere to no dog areas so non dog owning people can go there without the annoyance of other peoples dogs. Ok, I take the point about the kids irritating the dog but it is what kids do, they play. Should parents really subject them to an animal that could potentially kill them? Should people with kids ought to think more about kids, dogs etc, to ensure this sort of thing doesn't happen?

 

[Gremlin]

Steve that's the whole point, the parents had gone in and left the kids outside alone with the dog, they weren't in the restricted area.
I do to some extent agree with you, kids and dogs should never be left alone together

 

[SFTPhotography]

Steve that's the whole point, the parents had gone in and left the kids outside alone with the dog, they weren't in the restricted area.
I do to some extent agree with you, kids and dogs should never be left alone together

Seems if you have kids, thats yet another big burden to put on yourself, but that is just me. At what age, would you deem a child old enough to be left with a dog alone, 10, 15 etc?

 

[andya700]

Dogs or cats, they are all animals, and some (particularly in the case of certain "illegal" breeds or crosses) are more violent than others.
Anyone who says that their dog can be trusted around children and is 100% safe is deluded, and should not be allowed to look after children.
I would also guess (given the chavs with dangerous dogs living near me) that the vast majority of people who own these "illegal" dogs are borderline criminal themselves.
Idiots buy dangerous dogs because they think it says something about them - "look at me, I'm hard, so is my dog".

 

[Cg_Girl]

Seems if you have kids, thats yet another big burden to put on yourself, but that is just me. At what age, would you deem a child old enough to be left with a dog alone, 10, 15 etc?

Again that's going to vary with whoever you talk too, those that have young kids and family dogs do believe their dog wouldn't hurt a fly and majority don't.. you go to any re-homing centre and usually it's around 12 i think.

 

[Cg_Girl]

Dogs or cats, they are all animals, and some (particularly in the case of certain "illegal" breeds or crosses) are more violent than others.
Anyone who says that their dog can be trusted around children and is 100% safe is deluded, and should not be allowed to look after children.
I would also guess (given the chavs with dangerous dogs living near me) that the vast majority of people who own these "illegal" dogs are borderline criminal themselves.
Idiots buy dangerous dogs because they think it says something about them - "look at me, I'm hard, so is my dog".

Sadly alot of those types around Dav, not that i'm saying that it must be the case here, just stating a point and my obvious dislike for the place may pop through a bit lol

 

[Gremlin]

Seems if you have kids, thats yet another big burden to put on yourself, but that is just me. At what age, would you deem a child old enough to be left with a dog alone, 10, 15 etc?

It's the old "how long is a piece of string" question.
Some kids should never be, depends on the kids and the dog

 

[dejongj]

I would suspect reading between the lines, they suspect, that its an "illegal breed"
If proven then "someone" is liable for prosecution

Daft me it never occurred to me that that could be behind it. Well even more so, why as parents would you do that? Maybe she was the original Gangsta Granny.

 

[Cg_Girl]

Daft me it never occurred to me that that could be behind it. Well even more so, why as parents would you do that? Maybe she was the original Gangsta Granny.

I don't think they have said who the relative the baby was staying with was? or did i miss that bit?

 

[dejongj]

So let me get this straight, there is a clear and obvious risk of a dog and a baby in proximity and that proximity is a real hazard to the baby, yet people, by the millions in the UK pro actively own dogs?

I fully agree the dog should have been put away, there is negligence here, but its not malice and if dogs are as pleasant as people say they are, then surely its not an obviously foreseeable outcome? Or if it is a foreseeable outcome, why have the things?

22:30 isn't late to go to bed, its foreseeable they baby was put down in an adjacent room, the adult watching the television whilst the baby slept and the dog maybe napping in the other room or in with the adult and it took a wonder. Who knows, maybe they walked the dog, let it out for a pee/dump and it came in, went beserk.

It is a possible outcome. However very easily mitigated as well, and most definite not a given. As I suggested previously. They are animals, treat them and respect them as such and you are fine.

And who know about what happened. As I said it is all speculation as unfortunately that part doesn't get reported. For all we know the baby may have been in a bouncer with a snack or dirty face from its own dinner and granny was having a fag and finishing her tin of carlsberg in the garden whilst leaving the pitbull terrier indoors.

Who knows, way too much speculation and impossible conclusion directed to dogs imo.

 

[dejongj]

Seems if you have kids, thats yet another big burden to put on yourself, but that is just me. At what age, would you deem a child old enough to be left with a dog alone, 10, 15 etc?

To me it is not the age. It is the control they exert and the behaviour of the dog that demonstrates where they belong in the pecking order.

I tell you one thing. I feel happier with my daughter exploring her boundaries together without dog than without. She is fully capable of controlling him and commanding him. I'm actually more concerned about her safety when she goes to the stables and catches a 17hh horse in a field. Or when she goes to the leisure centre for a swim by herself or with friends.

However the other daughter who is 8, I'm still not happy for her to take him out. Or when she has friends to play. Heck the other day I spotted them burry him in flowers. And another child came running and screaming towards them. I simply talked to them like you can with human beings and explained what it must look like from an animals perspective. It's merely education and some pick up quicker than others. Action equals reaction, it works everywhere.

 

[dejongj]

I don't think they have said who the relative the baby was staying with was? or did i miss that bit?

The last article linked to said the grandmother I believe.

 

[Cg_Girl]

The last article linked to said the grandmother I believe.

Yep I missed that bit, that'll teach me to skim won't it

 

[Cobra]

Majority don't own dogs, maybe over 1/3 households have one, but not over 2/4 house holds.

TBH I haven't checked the stats in years, dog ownership, was always in the majority,
however with todays changing lifestyles its quite possible the balance has gone the other way.
HOWEVER with no actual records of dog ownership, now, how can we say for sure?
Sure, they can check the micro-chipped registrar, but I bet there is only a small proportion of
dogs chipped anyway.

re socialising of kids, dogs sure. But there are bad kids, bad dogs out there. You can try your best with both, but a few will slip through the net sadly.

I guess its possible that a dog maybe suffering from some painful condition, like a brain tumour for example,
that the owner hasn't picked up on, that would turn a dog (but not always) bad.
Again that's down to the owner missing signs.
And of course the genetic imbalance that I mentioned before.
As for badly behaved kids, don't get me started

They call it line breeding, I call in inbreeding.

And as we both know they are two totally different methods, but line breeding sounds better

that the vast majority of people who own these "illegal" dogs are borderline criminal themselves.

Those that own illegal breeds as defined in law are indeed criminals.
And open to prosecution.

I I am a firm believer people should adhere to no dog areas so non dog owning people can go there without the annoyance of other peoples dogs.

No argument here either

 

[dejongj]

To be fair I was surprised they provided that bit of detail considering everything else is being held back. I bet it came from some of the chatty neighbours.

 

[dejongj]

@Cobra yes let's not get started about badly behaved children. I mean you could end up in some serious trouble when you nibble their ears

 

[Cobra]

@Cobra yes let's not get started about badly behaved children. I mean you could end up in some serious trouble when you nibble their ears

PMSL
Although I find a slap across the back of the legs
is better for kids

You can't send them to their rooms any more,
as that's usually loaded with "goodies"
Play stations TV's Laptops etc etc.

I did punish mine once by telling them I was NOT sending them to their rooms

 

[Cg_Girl]

PMSL
Although I find a slap across the back of the legs
is better for kids

You can't send them to their rooms any more,
as that's usually loaded with "goodies"
Play stations TV's Laptops etc etc.

I did punish mine once by telling them I was NOT sending them to their rooms

I hated my dad slapping the back of my legs! b****r did it sting

As for the room thing, with arch I make sure his tablet/ds are removed which results in more foot stomping and mumbles of 'God mum' and alsorts of abuse lol

 

[Cobra]

I hated my dad slapping the back of my legs! b****r did it sting

That was the idea

As for the room thing, with arch I make sure his tablet/ds are removed which results in more foot stomping and mumbles of 'God mum' and alsorts of abuse lol

LOL and good for you

I actually used to say it to mine as a bit of a joke,
just as they were starting to get leery,
it tended to work

 

[lizzy23]

http://www.pfma.org.uk/pet-population/



25% of all households own at least 1 dog in 2013, although due to the number of people that don't feed commercial pet food anymore I would suspect that it's actually more ,,,, but that's a whole other topoc