Assange, Ecuador, £6 million minimum

Dave1 said:
So what would you like them to do? Without putting the security of every member of the UK Diplomatic Service in jeopardy?

So when North Korea, Zimbabwe or Argentina take offence to something we do and locks up our consular staff?

The Vienna Convention only works because every civilised country in the world abides by it.
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To be honest those sorts of places would do it anyway if they wanted to - look at what happened to the American embassy in Tehran in 1979 . Mind you I'm not saying we should kick there doors in and take Assange by force , personally I'd have just ignored him until he thought it was safe to go about his business, then arrested him quietly on the street. Making the big song and dance about it was mistake number 1
 
Assange is a hero of the people, assisting the public in exposing the USA and our own garbage government amongst others for spying on its own people all with the BS excuses of its in our own interest. He has outed there drone program which drops boms on kids,but the average schlep in the UK cares not just how cheep is the next iphone.......sickening....
 
He's no hero of mine. Alleged rapist/sexual offender??? Or has all the been made up:rolleyes: I detest the likes of his ilk.
 
Some might say he shafted the whore of Babylon - and Babylon want their pound of flesh. ;)
 
simon ess said:
Some might say he shafted the whore of Babylon - and Babylon want their pound of flesh. ;)
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I dare say they will have it too (deservedly imo if he's guilty).
 
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BRASH said:
He's no hero of mine. Alleged rapist/sexual offender??? Or has all the been made up:rolleyes: I detest the likes of his ilk.
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What do you actually know about the case?
Two women who knew each other, both had consensual sex with Assange.
One woman, after finding out that Assange had sex with the other woman, then accused Assange of "raping" her whilst she was asleep.
The whole court case - should it come to trial - revolves around the fact, that a law MAY be introduced to say that it is considered to be "rape" if a man has sex with a woman, whilst he is having sexual relations with another woman, because the event may not have taken place if the second woman was aware of the circumstances of the relationship with the first woman.
As I see it, it is a "crime" of sexual fraud", and how many people over the ages have committed that?
 
andy700 said:
What do you actually know about the case?
Two women who knew each other, both had consensual sex with Assange.
One woman, after finding out that Assange had sex with the other woman, then accused Assange of "raping" her whilst she was asleep.
The whole court case - should it come to trial - revolves around the fact, that a law MAY be introduced to say that it is considered to be "rape" if a man has sex with a woman, whilst he is having sexual relations with another woman, because the event may not have taken place if the second woman was aware of the circumstances of the relationship with the first woman.
As I see it, it is a "crime" of sexual fraud", and how many people over the ages have committed that?
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I have no idea but you seem to know presumably what you have read in the press.

What I do know is the allegations have been made, the Police in Sweden wish to interview him about them, he has bolted down a rabbit hole and hid there for two years. I suspect the Swedish Police hold more facts than you or I do and they will pursue the matter in accordance with their legal system if he ever has the bottle to emerge and face up to the allegations. I shan't hold my breath tho.:rolleyes:

Sexual fraud is a crime I've never heard of.
 
BRASH said:
I have no idea but you seem to know presumably what you have read in the press.

What I do know is the allegations have been made, the Police in Sweden wish to interview him about them, he has bolted down a rabbit hole and hid there for two years. I suspect the Swedish Police hold more facts than you or I do and they will pursue the matter in accordance with their legal system if he ever has the bottle to emerge and face up to the allegations. I shan't hold my breath tho.:rolleyes:

Sexual fraud is a crime I've never heard of.
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Aka rape by deception.
 
If he is sincere in his beliefs he should stand up and face the world.
If his supporters also believe in what he has done they should encourage him to do so.
If they do not believe that he will be treated fairly they should allow the process to happen and expose what they believe to be a corrupt process

He is a coward; he should face his accusers.

Because of his actions over’s the past few years he deserves little respect.

He cannot hide forever.
 
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ST4 said:
Yep. Why face that if you can avoid it.
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If you are not guilty, you face it, expose it and further the strength of your case.

If you believe in what you do and say you do not "run and hide"
 
BillN_33 said:
If you are not guilty, you face it, expose it and further the strength of your case.

If you believe in what you do and say you do not "run and hide"
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The system he faces is rigged against him. He know's his game is up. A pragmatic person knows when to cut their losses, this is his time.
 
BillN_33 said:
If you are not guilty, you face it, expose it and further the strength of your case.

If you believe in what you do and say you do not "run and hide"
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Unfortunately, this option is not open to Assange. If he returns to Sweden he will face a secret trial with no jury. He will then be send to the USA who will convict him and throw away the key.
 
ST4 said:
The system he faces is rigged against him. He know's his game is up. A pragmatic person knows when to cut their losses, this is his time.
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maybe so, but what has he gained by hiding in the Ecuadorian Embassy of all places? …….. I would suspect that he has gained nothing and lost support
 
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PatrickO said:
Unfortunately, this option is not open to Assange. If he returns to Sweden he will face a secret trial with no jury. He will then be send to the USA who will convict him and throw away the key.
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How do you know what will happen?

The world would not has stood by and "accepted" a secret trial ….. maybe now it will as "hiding" indicates that he has something to hide

It is a risk you take for what you believe in

He is a man who is not prepared to stand up for what he has said, done and purportedly believes in ……. he is a coward, who now lacks credibility among many
 
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BillN_33 said:
How do you know what will happen?

He is a man who is not prepared to stand up for what he has said, done and purportedly believes in ……. he is a coward
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Rape trials in Sweden are usually held in secret with no jury. He will not have the opportunity to give his evidence in public.

Personally, I do not like the man. However, the fact that I (or you) don't like him does not mean that he should be denied a fair trial. He won't get a fair trial in either Sweden or the USA. I do not think that seeking asylum from a secret trial is cowardice.
 
PatrickO said:
Rape trials in Sweden are usually held in secret with no jury. He will not have the opportunity to give his evidence in public.

Personally, I do not like the man. However, the fact that I (or you) don't like him does not mean that he should be denied a fair trial. He won't get a fair trial in either Sweden or the USA. I do not think that seeking asylum from a secret trial is cowardice.
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Wether any extradition application is successful remains to be seen

I do not dislike or like the man

He does not have "the balls" to stand up for what he has said and done ………….. he is a coward
 
BillN_33 said:
Wether any extradition application is successful remains to be seen

I do not dislike or like the man

He does not have "the balls" to stand up for what he has said and done ………….. he is a coward
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Would you be willing to undergo a secret trial without a jury if you were accused of a crime?
 
PatrickO said:
Would you be willing to undergo a secret trial without a jury if you were accused of a crime?
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Totally irrelevant

If there was a trial, and that's a big IF, it will be publicised, secret or not

The argument of which is the "most fair" to be judged by a "jury" or by a set of judges can be played all day. In some respects, in a rape trial, who are more qualified to judge him and who will give him a fairer trial ……. if indeed that were to happen ……… are you suggesting that the Swedish judges will not give him a fair trial

Are you an expert on Swedish law as you seem to have already accepted that he will be found guilty which is not the case, and are you suggesting that no one can get a fair trial in Sweden if accused of rape?

If I were accused of a crime I would have to face the music, hiding in a Foreign Embassy would not be an option
 
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PatrickO said:
Would you be willing to undergo a secret trial without a jury if you were accused of a crime?
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You keep harping on about secret trials, but do you know that for a fact?

It would seem the Swedish government would disagree with your opinion, and while there appears to be some privacy built into Swedish courts, there aren't "secret trials".

The top hit from a Google (which took about 10 seconds to find) says:

Claims Julian Assange would face a "secret trial" over sexual assault claims in Sweden are inaccurate, a UK extradition hearing has been told.

Clare Montgomery QC, for the Swedish authorities, said evidence from a trial would be heard in private but the arguments would be made in public.

The Wikileaks founder's lawyer said his client might not have a fair trial.

Sweden wants to question Mr Assange over allegations of sexual assault, which he denies.

The case was adjourned to 24 February.

At Belmarsh Magistrates' Court in south-east London, Geoffrey Robertson QC, representing the Wikileaks founder, said rape trials in Sweden were "secret" and heard behind closed doors - a claim that was denied by representatives of the Swedish authorities.
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-12427839
 
PatrickO said:
Would you be willing to undergo a secret trial without a jury if you were accused of a crime?
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JA
From a legal standpoint you either accept that we should have extradition treaties with other countries or not.

From a moral standpoint there are various opinions on what action an individual should take in these circumstances

The Ecuadorian Embassy
You either accept that there should be mutual cooperation with the UK authorities or you do not.

We do live in a democratic country, but the law is the law and it has developed for the protection of, and to safeguard a peaceful society……….. unless you believe in a "conspiracy theory"

The nine people who put up his £140k bail expected him to surrender himself ……….. or did they??
 
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Dave1 said:
You keep harping on about secret trials, but do you know that for a fact?

It would seem the Swedish government would disagree with your opinion, and while there appears to be some privacy built into Swedish courts, there aren't "secret trials".

The top hit from a Google (which took about 10 seconds to find) says:


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-12427839
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So the top hit you found was from the Swedish authorities - hardly going to be a neutral voice now are they?

Come on Dave - cant you see there is next to no difference between a secret trial and a trial held in private? Surely you're not that gullible?
 
BillN_33 said:
From a legal standpoint you either accept that we should have extradition treaties with other countries or not.
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Must be great to live in such a black and white world! Surely you can appreciate there are shades of grey in justice and politics?


BillN_33 said:
We do live in a democratic country, but the law is the law and it has developed for the protection of, and to safeguard the status quo……….. unless you believe in a "conspiracy theory"
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FTFY
 
BillN_33 said:
If he is sincere in his beliefs he should stand up and face the world.
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If he is sincere in his beliefs he should do whatever is best to further them - that may or may not include standing up and facing the world. His beliefs involve developing society by sharing some rather inconvenient facts, a practice which is not really possible from inside a jail cell after a fitted up rape charge.

He believes what he is doing, and he believes the charges to be faked (and evidence rather suggests he is correct). The analogy bears repeating - if we had any other choice, would you or I go and face a trial that we believed was intended to lock us up and preclude us from what we believed was right? Presumably the Ecuadorians are pretty clear about his innocence.

In the end he's essentially in prison anyway, so the charges are working after a fact.

BillN_33 said:
We do live in a democratic country, but the law is the law and it has developed for the protection of, and to safeguard a peaceful society……….. unless you believe in a "conspiracy theory"
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The concept of law has developed to protect the socially dominant - it's working that way in this case also.
 
Rapscallion said:
Must be great to live in such a black and white world! Surely you can appreciate there are shades of grey in justice and politics?




FTFY
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I do not think that I have said one way or another whether he should be extradited or not. I have said basically that he should let the legal system decide as that is his only option, no one else can.
I also think that he is a coward and does not have the "courage of his convictions" and that this is more so as each day goes by.
I have said that he should stop hiding in the Embassy and that the cost to the British taxpayer is unfair

There are, as you put it, "shades of grey" ……… with past cases to illustrate this.
Whether he is extradited to Sweden or not will be decided by the British courts. Both sides will present evidence as will the Swedish Government.
If the UK Courts are of the opinion that he will not receive a fair trial in Sweden or that his human rights are being breached he will not be extradited.
The situation may be influenced, indirectly, by what Parliament and the British people think ……..

Presumably he was expected to surrender himself when he was released of £140k bail, can he ever be trusted?

He is an adult and he knew what the consequences of his actions would be and if he is sincere he should stand up and defend his position.
 
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BillN_33 said:
I do not think that I have said one way or another whether he should be extradited or not. I have said basically that he should let the legal system decide as that is his only option, no one else can.
I also think that he is a coward and does not have the "courage of his convictions" and this is more so as each day goes by.

There are, as you put it, "shades of grey" ……… with past cases to illustrate this.
Whether he is extradited to Sweden or not will be decided by the British courts. Both sides will present evidence as will the Swedish Government.
If the UK Courts are of the opinion that he will not receive a fair trial in Sweden or that his human rights are being breached he will not be extradited.
The situation may be influenced, indirectly, by what Parliament and the British people think ……..
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I think he is being entirely reasonable in avoiding lengthy solitary detention followed by a secret trial presided over by politically appointed judges with no legal training....
 
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Rapscallion said:
I think he is being entirely reasonable in avoiding lengthy solitary detention followed by a secret trial presided over by politically appointed judges with no legal training....
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Why would he want to face potential jail time if you didn't have to. Court apperances are never pleasant, if you can dodge them why not.
 
Rapscallion said:
I think he is being entirely reasonable in avoiding lengthy solitary detention followed by a secret trial presided over by politically appointed judges with no legal training....
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another expert of the Swedish legal system …………. now it is a "secret trial" presided over by "politically appointed judges" with "no legal training"

The British Government will not give in
If he leaves the Embassy for health reasons he will be arrested

If the Ecuadorians are sincere in their wish to support his "civil rights" etc., they should make him a citizen of their country, award his diplomatic status and assist him to leave the UK for Ecuador.

Why have the Ecuadorians sheltered him?
 
BillN_33 said:
another expert of the Swedish legal system …………. now it is a "secret trial" presided over by "politically appointed judges" with "no legal training"
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Am i wrong?

Edit
Or is this a dig at me rather than my argument?
 
BillN_33 said:
I do not think that I have said one way or another whether he should be extradited or not. I have said basically that he should let the legal system decide as that is his only option, no one else can.
I also think that he is a coward and does not have the "courage of his convictions" and that this is more so as each day goes by.
I have said that he should stop hiding in the Embassy and that the cost to the British taxpayer is unfair

There are, as you put it, "shades of grey" ……… with past cases to illustrate this.
Whether he is extradited to Sweden or not will be decided by the British courts. Both sides will present evidence as will the Swedish Government.
If the UK Courts are of the opinion that he will not receive a fair trial in Sweden or that his human rights are being breached he will not be extradited.
The situation may be influenced, indirectly, by what Parliament and the British people think ……..

Presumably he was expected to surrender himself when he was released of £140k bail, can he ever be trusted?

He is an adult and he knew what the consequences of his actions would be and if he is sincere he should stand up and defend his position.
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You could argue he is following the legal system by doing what he is doing, as is everyone else including Ecuador and the UK.

You can disagree with what he has done, but I'm not sure I'd call him a coward. He knew what would be coming his way, and did it anyway. He did have the courage of his convictions, which was to release what he did. He achieved his aim, probably does not think he deserves a jail sentence which he knows is coming his way if he leaves (I don't mean the rape issue, I mean when the US get hold of him), so is taking the best approach available to him to maintain his freedom, albeit under an effective form of house arrest.
 
Rapscallion said:
Am i wrong?

Edit
Or is this a dig at me rather than my argument?
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no it is not a dig at you, I quoted what you said

If what you say is true and you can provide evidence I would think that he will never be extradited to Sweden as the UK Courts would consider that he would not receive a fair trial if he was convicted by "politically appointed judges with no legal training" to quote you.
I did not realise the Swedish legal system would ever allow anyone to by tried by a person with no legal training or knowledge of the law
Presumably you have some evidence for what you have so clearly said?

As I indicated the easiest solution to this would be if the Ecuadorians are sincere in their wish to support his "civil rights" etc., they should make him a citizen of their country, award his diplomatic status and assist him to leave the UK for Ecuador….. which is what the British taxpayer needs ………...why don't they?

JA has access to the best human rights lawyers around, each of his legal arguments has been considered in extreme detail and he has his case considered many times, more than any other, he has always lost and there is now a European warrant out for his arrest so it is now over to international law

The Ecuadorian record on "human rights" or freedom of the press is not great, whatever the reason they have given him protection it is not because of their belief in these issues

If JA is to be extradited to the US, the best place for him to be, UK or Sweden, would be Sweden

It would be helpful if the Swedish legal system was "read up on" by some
 
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Mr Bump said:
Assange is a hero of the people, assisting the public in exposing the USA and our own garbage government amongst others for spying on its own people all with the BS excuses of its in our own interest. He has outed there drone program which drops boms on kids,but the average schlep in the UK cares not just how cheep is the next iphone.......sickening....
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I find this a bit confusing on two levels

a) the drone program wasn't secret so what was there to out ? (Numerous ex millitary people have written about the drones in their books - Fire strike 7/9 by Damien Lewis and Bommer Graeme being a classic example )

b) the drones don't carry bombs , so it would be difficult for them to "drop them on kids" - they do carry Hellfire missiles, but these are fired by an operator with visiual and are usually used for strikes on terrorist leaders ... okay so if the terrorists insist on hiding behind kids , they could be caught in the blast , but thats hardly the same as US drones flying arround looking for kids to target

Also you beileve our government is spying on you all the time, but you are happy to say so on a public forum ?! (If you'd tried that in a police state you'd have jhad the secret police kicking your door in at 3am - thus the very fact that you can say it with impunity is evidence that they arent )
 
Rapscallion said:
Am i wrong?

Edit
Or is this a dig at me rather than my argument?
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Phil, you ask if it was a "dig at you"

but I really find it difficult to understand what you have said

You say that JA will face the following and that it is correct:

a secret trial

presided over by politically appointed judges

with no legal training….

where did you get this information from?

The Swedish legal system is very good, in the lower level courts it mixes "Lay judges" with professional judges but all such are trained and experienced ……. you could say, more so than any English Jury"
The legal profession is Sweden is good they are trained as well as any other profession in the world…….. do you know any swedish lawyers?
I am sure that if JA were found guilty it would be appealed to a higher court where the Judges are more senior and very well trained and experienced.
Sweden is noted for it's fair play and democracy………. a far cry from what you have indicated ……….have you been to Sweden , it is based on your experience in Sweden?

In the past, in the 1980's, through work, I have met Swedish lawyers and used there legal system, but my experience of Swedish courts is very minimal and at a minor level…….. I know that it is a long time ago, but it cannot have changed that much. In fact one of my good friends is Swedish/Finnish and a lawyer, albeit retired, I'll ask her next time I speak to her.

Legal appointments can be political, but I am not sure that in Sweden they are just appointed by one political party.

I just do not recognise what you say …….. and it worries me that you can make such a statement ……. can you help me with evidence?
 
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I'd assumed that phil was talking abpout the 'trial' he'd recievein america once the swedes had dealt with him... but i could be wrong
 
big soft moose said:
I'd assumed that phil was talking abpout the 'trial' he'd recievein america once the swedes had dealt with him... but i could be wrong
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secret trials were mentioned (above) as being what happens in Sweden for rape trials …… I do not think that they are really secret, but I think that the "secret" element is to protect the woman's identity …… but I could be wrong but I thought all trials in Sweden were 'reported"
 
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  1. a secret trial - the trial will be held behind closed doors. the swedish authorities say this is 'private', others describe it as 'secret'. Either way, it is not open to public or journalistic scrutiny.
  2. presided over by politically appointed judges - this page states that allegation by Assange, you'll need to google translate it as it is swedish

Some critical articles of the Swedish justice system:
 
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