Are any of England, Scotland, Wales or N Ireland Countries, or just part of 1 (UK)

[Triggaaar]

Arguement has broken out in another thread, so I thought I'd try and drag it here instead. This forum says "..anything at all thats nothing to do with photography, but please, no politics or religion!" - although political, hopefully this subject is acceptable - if not, oops, it's gone.

So ladies and gents, go for it

 

[TTK]

They have I think there own parliament's so in one way they are countries, but saying that it's all under the one heading, England or UK..

 

[Triggaaar]

They have I think there own parliament's

England doesn't have its own parliament

 

[ladysue]

I think they are all countries. They all have their own flags.UK is United Kingdom so the countries are united but each has its own identity.
Sue

 

[david1701]

I think they are all countries. They all have their own flags.UK is United Kingdom so the countries are united but each has its own identity.
Sue

ya know cornwall has a flag right please tell me this means we can go all hardcore with a border wall ala doomsday

 

[awp]

Didn't you do any geography at school? Scotland is a country not a region- always will be.

 

[Triggaaar]

Having a flag doesn't make you a country (eg Catalonia has a flag, but is port of Spain). Countries can merge to form a new country, but they can still hold on to their old flags.

This is what I believe to be true:
England, Scotland, Wales and N Ireland are nations of the UK.
They do not individually have a seat at the UN General Assembly
They do not have their own head of state and head of government.
They do not have individual sovereignty (although some have devolved assembies, absolute soverighnty shared).

So they are not countries. The UK is.

 

[Triggaaar]

Scotland is a country not a region- always will be.

What's your reasoning for this opinion (other than just wanting it to be so)? Obviously you can't say that any region will 'always' be a country, as anything could change over a long time.

 

[awp]

The UK is made up of four countries. It is not itself a country. Further discussion is pointless. I think you are trying to start an argument.

 

[ShawWellPete]

Is Zack Arias coming to the UK?

 

[Flash In The Pan]

What's your reasoning for this opinion (other than just wanting it to be so)? Obviously you can't say that any region will 'always' be a country, as anything could change over a long time.

It's not an opinion, it's a fact. Remember too it was our king who took the English throne, not the other way around, which makes me wonder where the hell we got Elizabeth II from, when there hasn't been an Elizabeth I of Great Britain.....

 

[tiler65]

Queen of England and the Commonwealth which includes Scotland.

 

[david1701]

Having a flag doesn't make you a country (eg Catalonia has a flag, but is port of Spain). Countries can merge to form a new country, but they can still hold on to their old flags.

it is argued that Catalonia and Basque country both had better cases for independence than ireland

 

[HornetSting]

Wales is part of the uk but doesnt have its flag in the Union flag, often incorrectly referred to the union jack, I think its only the union jack when on a ship.

 

[markrichardson]

The problem here is that there's no standard international definition of 'country'. What some people mean by country, others mean state etc

Interestingly, the Queen's formal title in the UK is:

‘By the Grace of God, of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, and of her other Realms and Territories, Queen, Head of the Commonwealth, Defender of the Faith'

There is no distinct mention of England, Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland as entities in themselves ('United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland' being a single formal entity)

With regard to the Commonwealth, the UK (again as a single entity) is considered a Realm.

 

[markrichardson]

It's not an opinion, it's a fact. Remember too it was our king who took the English throne, not the other way around, which makes me wonder where the hell we got Elizabeth II from, when there hasn't been an Elizabeth I of Great Britain.....

You got Elizabeth II as a result of a very well known court case in the 1953, which contested her right to use Elizabeth II in Scotland. Following this (and at the suggestion of Churchill) it was suggested monarchs would take the next number after the highest of either English, Scottish or UK monarchs (e.g. Henry IX will be next, even though I think Scotland was only up to II, James VIII will be next following on from James VII of Scotland.)

 

[jamesb84]

Queen of England and the Commonwealth which includes Scotland.

I was always under the impression that as a consequence of the feudal laird system in Scotland, the Queen was not Queen of Scotland, but Queen of the Scots.

The distinction being she is monarch of the people, but the land is/was owned by the lairds.

As for the country argument, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland would to me imply that the country is a United collection of countries that form Great Britain (which is the geographical bit of the island which includes England, Scotland and Wales) with the addition (and I'm not getting into the right/wrong bit of this) of Northern Ireland.

This union was signed in 1706 and brought together the seperate countries of Great Britain into a single united entity. Should the union be dissolved (as proposed by the SNP), then the countries will either seperate entirely and become England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland...or more likely, "the United Kingdom of England, Wales and Northern Ireland".

There is no mention of the Isle of Man, which is of course a Crown Dependency.

 

[Flash In The Pan]

You got Elizabeth II as a result of a very well known court case in the 1953, which contested her right to use Elizabeth II in Scotland. Following this (and at the suggestion of Churchill) it was suggested monarchs would take the next number after the highest of either English, Scottish or UK monarchs (e.g. Henry IX will be next, even though I think Scotland was only up to II, James VIII will be next following on from James VII of Scotland.)

I must admit I didn't know that :saved for future reference:

In a similar vein, as we have a Prince of Wales, is Wales a country or a principality?

 

[-Rob-]

England is a country
Scotland is a country
Wales is a country
Northern Ireland is a country

Collectively these 4 countries are known as the United Kingdom which is not a country.

FACT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Flash In The Pan]

England is a country
Scotland is a country
Wales is a country
Northern Ireland is a country

Collectively these 4 countries are known as the United Kingdom which is not a country.

FACT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Up until the early part of the 20th century "England" was commonly used as the term for whole of Great Britain and I'd imagine in quite a few backward nations (the USA springs to mind) it probably still is...

 

[jamesb84]

England is a country
Scotland is a country
Wales is a country
Northern Ireland is a country

Collectively these 4 countries are known as the United Kingdom which is not a country.

FACT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Indeed...The Acts of Union of 1800 signified the collective joining of 4 countries (at the time it was Ireland and not Northern Ireland) to form a union.

Similarly, the former USSR or Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, was a collection of like-minded countries formed into a union (though perhaps not always willingly).

Also, the United States of America is again a Union of indivdual federal states which have the power to create and pass laws which are only applicable to that state. It represents a more devolved system of power, which the UK is approaching with the more power it devolves to Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.

Such devolution can only be a good thing. Letting people govern their own affairs is perhaps better than doing it for them from a distance (of course, the same applies to Scottish based MPs voting for legislation that would not affect their constituents)

 

[-Rob-]

Up until the early part of the 20th century "England" was commonly used as the term for whole of Great Britain and I'd imagine in quite a few backward nations (the USA springs to mind) it probably still is...

Up until the 16th century it was commonly believed that the earth was flat. That doesn't make it true though.

 

[Flash In The Pan]

Up until the 16th century it was commonly believed that the earth was flat. That doesn't make it true though.

That's the arguement I use when religion rears it's ugly head in conversations

 

[2blue4u]

Oh, goody. An argument about nothing

The answer is whatever you think it is.

Personally, I think our 'country' is The United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland. Anything else are merely regions - call them what you like. It is the UK that is a member of the UN, of NATO, of the EU, of the... you get the idea.

 

[Flash In The Pan]

Anything else are merely regions - call them what you like.

That is, of course, completely incorrect

 

[-Rob-]

That's the arguement I use when religion rears it's ugly head in conversations

I can't wait for the day when people are able to say "Up until the year 20XX people believed in God but obviously now we know it was all just a propoganda fairytale made up thousands of years ago to brainwash the masses".

 

[-Rob-]

Oh, goody. An argument about nothing

Definately agree with that bit.

The answer is whatever you think it is

Not really. There is a definitive answer as to whether these geographical area is it's just that most people don't know or care what the answer it. Just because you don't know doesn't mean you can make an answer up and it'll be right.

 

[Flash In The Pan]

Definately agree with that bit.


Not really. There is a definitive answer as to whether these geographical area is it's just that most people don't know or care what the answer it. Just because you don't know doesn't mean you can make an answer up and it'll be right.

Perhaps in England, but up here most people do care and most do know the answer....

 

[-Rob-]

Perhaps in England, but up here most people do care and most do know the answer....

Yeah but you Scots are just a tiny fraction of the population of the world who probably don't know the difference between the UK and the 4 countries that compile it.

 

[Flash In The Pan]

Yeah but you Scots are just a tiny fraction of the population of the world who probably don't know the difference between the UK and the 4 countries that compile it.

We're a fairly large proportion of the population of Scotland though

 

[mrgubby]

Yeah but you Scots are just a tiny fraction of the population of the world who probably don't know the difference between the UK and the 4 countries that compile it.

are you really trying to cause an argument or was that tongue in cheek

 

[-Rob-]

are you really trying to cause an argument or was that tongue in cheek

I don't see how that statement would cause an argument (unless you read it to mean something that it's not intended to mean)

 

[arclight]

The Acts of Union were a pair of Parliamentary Acts passed in 1707 by the Parliament of Scotland and the Parliament of England to put into effect the terms of the Treaty of Union that had been agreed on 22 July 1706, following negotiation between commissioners representing the parliaments of the two countries. The Acts joined the Kingdom of England and the Kingdom of Scotland (previously separate states, with separate legislatures but with the same monarch) into a single, united kingdom named "Great Britain".[1]

Individual countries, but one kingdom.

 

[dod]

it can be read in two ways.

1. The Scots are a tiny fraction of the population of the world (fine) and the scots woudln't know the difference (not fine)

2. within the world population there is a percentage which doesn't know the difference and a tiny proportion of those are Scots.

I think it's intended to be the second

 

[-Rob-]

It's actually meant to be a combination of the 2.

What I meant was, it's not just the English and the Scots that don't know if a country is a country, it is an issue across the whole world. So there is a huge population out there that are ignorant to the correct answer and the Scots make up a small percentage of that group of people as they are a small percentage of the population of the world. I think that's what I was saying anyway. I certainly wasn't intending to insult any Scots.......there are far better ways to do that!!!!

 

[fracster]

All separate countries.

 

[MisterE]

As Kenny Everett once said, and got in to a spot of hot water over,

When we were an empire we had an emperor

When we were a kingdom we had a king.

Now we're just a country, we have Margaret Thatcher.

 

[Triggaaar]

It's not an opinion, it's a fact.

Ah, you've used the word 'fact', so it must be true.

it is argued that Catalonia and Basque country both had better cases for independence than ireland

So?

Indeed...The Acts of Union of 1800 signified the collective joining of 4 countries (at the time it was Ireland and not Northern Ireland) to form a union.

When the countries joined, they formed 1 new country.

Perhaps in England, but up here most people do care and most do know the answer....

I imagine you're right that many people in Scotland do care, but that doesn't mean they know. It seems that you don't know (unless you can provide some evidence rather than just saying 'fact'.

Some definitions:
"A State (note the capital "S") is a self-governing political entity. The term State can be used interchangeably with country."
"A nation, however, is a tightly-knit group of people which share a common culture. A nation-state is a nation which has the same borders as a State."

What defines a State or an independent country. An independent State:
"Has sovereignty. No other State should have power over the country's territory" (that counts out all the nations within the UK)
"Has external recognition. A country has been 'voted into the club' by other countries" (also counts our nations out, we don't have external recognition nor nor our own embassies in other independent countries.

 

[Shutter]

From reading all of this, and doing some googling, i have come to this conclusion:

England and wales formed a union. This wasn't called anything, England was still England and Wales still Wales. 2 countries!

Later Scotland and England (with Wales) formed Great Britain - 3 countries.

Then afterwards Great Britain (Scotland with England and Wales) joined with Ireland to form the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland.

Then, obviously in 1921 a partition in Ireland created Northern Ireland (6 counties) and the Republic of Ireland.

Northern Ireland remained in the United Kingdom of Great Britain and so it is now named the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. (4 countries)!! Simples!

Kris

 

[david1701]

I'm mostly **** stirring tbh