Anyone Hear Of This Outfit?

Keith W

Keith W

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Hi,

Has anyone heard of HLAY Events?

Someone named Callum from this outfit just spammed my wife, and exposed her email to about 50 other people in the email, offering there event photographic services.

My wife runs one of the biggest mother and todler groups in Livingston by the way.

My wife says she has no idea how this guy got a hold of her email address as it is her personal one and she uses a different one for the M&T group, she is also peed off that he has exposed her personal email address to about 50 other people.

My wife already has a resident photographer anyway, me ;)
 
I presume you loooked at their website http://www.hlay.co.uk/html/index.html

It would be interesting to find out if the other email addresses also have busineses. If so your wife's email address may have been sold to this company.

I would phone them up and ask how they got it.

If they refuse to tell you tell them you will email everyone else on the list saying what a bad company they are.
 
I would say trying to keep an email private is quite futile. I certainly wouldn't waste too much time or effort trying to trace how it got out.. You will hit a brick wall I am sure.

having your own domain helps in that you can make up a new email for everything you do/sign up for then if that gets used you know where it came from.. However the other people will just say they didnt pass it on and thats that..
 
it doesn't necessarily mean that he spammed you either... somebody could have spammed / ghosted (or whatever its called) his email address and then made it look like he's spamming everyone else... this can be repeated over and over so you never know where it's originated. Pain in the rump though, i know.
 
The address if Fife is fairly upmarket.
 
Was that an attempt a humour admirable?! :)
 
My post may have sounded harsh - it wasn't meant to. I just see nothing wrong with asking where someone gets your email address from.

Daryl

If you do speak to them can I suggest that you let them know to add everyone to the bcc field.
 
haggis said:
Was that an attempt a humour admirable?! :)
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Not really, just trying to say it's unlikely to be some snotty nosed kid sitting in his bedroom on some run down council estate having a larf.

but i suppose you never know.
 
My wife says she has no idea how this guy got a hold of her email address as it is her personal one and she uses a different one for the M&T group, she is also peed off that he has exposed her personal email address to about 50 other people.

My wife already has a resident photographer anyway, me ;)
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This really isn't trolling, but I'm interested to know why people get ****ed off by things like this. Do you keep your snail mail address secret?

why is email address any different?

just interested and bored while waiting for my printer to do its thing
 
I'm presuming this was an email to 50 people and they didn't use the BCC facility thus revealing all the other addresses?
 
bigrob said:
I presume you loooked at their website http://www.hlay.co.uk/html/index.html

It would be interesting to find out if the other email addresses also have busineses. If so your wife's email address may have been sold to this company.

I would phone them up and ask how they got it.

If they refuse to tell you tell them you will email everyone else on the list saying what a bad company they are.
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All the other email addresses were of organisations running mother and toddler groups etc.

Have contacted them and it seems my wife's email address was given to them by a rather large organisation called Mumsnet, my wife advertises on there website.

We have also contacted Mumsnet to express our displeasure at them for passing on our private email to this organisation without our permission


leftcurl said:
it doesn't necessarily mean that he spammed you either... somebody could have spammed / ghosted (or whatever its called) his email address and then made it look like he's spamming everyone else... this can be repeated over and over so you never know where it's originated. Pain in the rump though, i know.
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He spammed us and I have confirmed this


Daryl said:
I know the the other business partner Roddy. they are a good firm. They have a fantastic marketing. E mail is only a small part of it.

They are legit, and would not want to offend any one. I can ask how they got it if you want Keith?
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Thanks for the offer but I have already found out how they got my wife's email address


keirik said:
This really isn't trolling, but I'm interested to know why people get ****ed off by things like this. Do you keep your snail mail address secret?

why is email address any different?

just interested and bored while waiting for my printer to do its thing
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I have every right to get peed off at someone spamming me or my wife, especially when that email address was obtained illegally

It is against the law to spam people, it is also against the law (data protection act) for another organisation to pass on your email without your permission


admirable said:
I'm presuming this was an email to 50 people and they didn't use the BCC facility thus revealing all the other addresses?
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Correct



Thanks for your thoughts and comments everyone
 
Daryl said:
They have a fantastic marketing. E mail is only a small part of it.
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I know it's one sided, but just from reading this thread it certainly strikes me that this probably wasn't the best way to display "fantastic marketing".
 
slimboy fat said:
I know it's one sided, but just from reading this thread but it certainly strikes me that this probably wasn't the best way to display "fantastic marketing".
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Exactly

When I spoke to them about it they were very apologetic.

They told me where they had obtained my wife's email address and indeed every email address on the list.

However they didn't seem to grasp the fact that what they did was wrong let alone illegal
 
EdinburghGary said:
Keith what were they trying to market to you, exactly?

Gary.
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Event photography and family portraits basically

Offered to come and take pictures at the mother and toddler group, print the pictures out there and then and sell them to the mothers, with a tiny percentage of sales going to us.

They also offered to do family portraits as well, again with us reciving a tiny percentage of there sales.

And to quote them: "the shoot only takes 10mins max" :shake:

We are not looking for anyone anyway as I take care of all the events/parties.

We also do family portraits a couple of times a year but get a family friend in to do this who is a pro tog, I am simply not confident to do this myself plus the fact that I don't have the necessary equipment to do a good job
 
Keith W said:
Event photography and family portraits basically

Offered to come and take pictures at the mother and toddler group, print the pictures out there and then and sell them to the mothers, with a tiny percentage of sales going to us.

They also offered to do family portraits as well, again with us reciving a tiny percentage of there sales.

And to quote them: "the shoot only takes 10mins max" :shake:

We are not looking for anyone anyway as I take care of all the events/parties.

We also do family portraits a couple of times a year but get a family friend in to do this who is a pro tog, I am simply not confident to do this myself plus the fact that I don't have the necessary equipment to do a good job
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If you friend falls out with you, give us a shout :D
 
if they're doing the shoot in a nursery event style 10mins is more than enough, kids aren't renowned for their patience :)

but yeah can't imagine the prices are going to be in the £100s
 
oh, his leslie place is just round the corner from me... Cant say Ive ever heard of them ...:shrug:
 
I appreciate it is annoying, however the fact is your wife has posted her email address somewhere, be it on a forum, Mumsnet or somewhere else - I don't know. Often these places have an option to opt out of marketing emails or emails from other companies. If this option isn't taken then that company will distribute their captured email addresses to other companies who will then send emails offering their services. That isn't illegal.

Emails like the one your wife received isn't spam - it is a marketing email from a totally legit company and all she needs to do is tell the company that she doesn't want any more emails from them and they won't - absolutely no difference from receiving a menu through your door for a local takeaway - and that isn't illegal last time I checked.






Keith W said:
Exactly

When I spoke to them about it they were very apologetic.

They told me where they had obtained my wife's email address and indeed every email address on the list.

However they didn't seem to grasp the fact that what they did was wrong let alone illegal
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I have no affiliation with this place and have never heard of it, but it's interesting to note that because someone has complained about receiving a marketing email from them their whole business is being pulled to bits. 10 minutes is more than enough for kids of that age and instead of knocking it, why not focus your anger on the standard school photographers who come into schools every single year, spend 30 seconds taking photographs in front of embarassing 1970's style backgrounds then charge parents a fortune for the privilege.



alexkidd said:
if they're doing the shoot in a nursery event style 10mins is more than enough, kids aren't renowned for their patience :)

but yeah can't imagine the prices are going to be in the £100s
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Sophotogenic said:
I have no affiliation with this place and have never heard of it, but it's interesting to note that because someone has complained about receiving a marketing email from them their whole business is being pulled to bits. 10 minutes is more than enough for kids of that age and instead of knocking it, why not focus your anger on the standard school photographers who come into schools every single year, spend 30 seconds taking photographs in front of embarassing 1970's style backgrounds then charge parents a fortune for the privilege.
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Anger? :lol:

WHOLE busines being pulled to bits? More laughs from me I'm afraid.

For what it's worth, I'm also a filthy spammer and have my own home built database with over 2M UK contacts, all opt in ;)

Gary.
 
Sophotogenic said:
I appreciate it is annoying, however the fact is your wife has posted her email address somewhere, be it on a forum, Mumsnet or somewhere else - I don't know. Often these places have an option to opt out of marketing emails or emails from other companies. If this option isn't taken then that company will distribute their captured email addresses to other companies who will then send emails offering their services. That isn't illegal.

Emails like the one your wife received isn't spam - it is a marketing email from a totally legit company and all she needs to do is tell the company that she doesn't want any more emails from them and they won't - absolutely no difference from receiving a menu through your door for a local takeaway - and that isn't illegal last time I checked.
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The place was Netmums and not Mumsnet who are a totally different organisation.

Also my wife used her email when she signed up to advertise on the Netmums website and there was no option about sharing her email address with other companies or otherwise, in fact it is quite the opposite as Netmums go to great lengths to say they will not share your email address with anyone under any circumstances [unless required to do so under law, such as a court order etc.]

So yes it is illegal

Also it matters not what type of email it was, marketing or otherwise, any unsolicited electronic mail is legally classed as spam - So yes the email my wife received was spam and as such illegal
 
Sophotogenic said:
Feel free to share that list if you like :) lol
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Haha...

I'm actually going to need to clarify the rules, they are all clients from my other business, and whilst they did opt in - it was in the context of a completely unrelated service and industry...

However, based on a recent email I sent as INSPIRE (legit), to a very small sample of 120 addresses, from Fife, Edinburgh, Lothians and West / Glasgow, I have so far, 5 days after sending email, 40 notes of interest and over 20 bookings. I must have well over 200,000 addresses available in Central Scotland, maybe more...

G.
 
That's fair enough Keith, and I understand your frustration. However, rightly or wrongly, this company has gotten an email address from somewhere and the blame lies firmly with where the email address was posted - it is their responsibility to keep the email address safe and not share it with others.


Keith W said:
The place was Netmums and not Mumsnet who are a totally different organisation.

Also my wife used her email when she signed up to advertise on the Netmums website and there was no option about sharing her email address with other companies or otherwise, in fact it is quite the opposite as Netmums go to great lengths to say they will not share your email address with anyone under any circumstances [unless required to do so under law, such as a court order etc.]

So yes it is illegal

Also it matters not what type of email it was, marketing or otherwise, any unsolicited electronic mail is legally classed as spam - So yes the email my wife received was spam and as such illegal
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Not wanting to condone spamming (but I do :D), but basically, the way around it is to set up Company X which "acquires data from company Y". Then it sells data to Company Z, after which, Company X & Y folds. Company X & Y would have provided "opt in guarentee" with said data. Company Z has therefore done everything it could and should have done to stay legit.

Company X & Y needs setup in a certain way to safeguard the owners. It's pointless for small campaigns, but if you want to spam millions of people, you need to be very careful.

G.
 
I think you should be getting angry at the company which give/sold the email address to HLAY events- as they possibly didn't realise that they didn't have your permission to send emails. Unfortunately spam email is the way of the internet :(
 
Sophotogenic is right - this is not spam and it's not illegal. It might be considered bad business practice and there is a risk (as in the case here) that you're likely to upset people who haven't been given the opportunity to opt in or out - but not illegal.

As has been suggested, vent your anger towards the source that sold the email in the first place.
 
Spuff said:
Sophotogenic is right - this is not spam .
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if it looks like spam, tastes like spam, sounds like spam and smells like spam then the chances are...it's spam..

an unsolicited commercial email is spam.. how does the sender know how the reciever is paying for there internet time/connection? If you recieve a reverse charge phone call and it turns out to be an advert.. or you pay postage on a letter that turns out to be an advert... thats not right... if your paying for bandwidth usage then your paying to recieve an advert.. thats spam...

well it used to be and in my definition it still is spam..

I make no claims as to the legality of it.. only the terminology... its spam no matter how much jam or brown sauce you slap on it.. its still spam..
 
I receive countless emails every day offering being offered cheap Viagra and cheap surgery on penile extensions. Taking my other emails into consideration, I must also have at least £750,000,000 sitting in a variety of banks around the world, which I can cash in quite easily if I email my details to the nice gentleman at the Bank of Nigeria. I know these are spam emails because I know that everyone, every single day, gets similiar emails because they are sent out indiscrimately to everyone.

However, supposing I really was after Viagra, or actually did require a bit of lengthening, and I had joined a forum or somewhere else which was actually created for like minded members (if you excuse the pun), and then received emails from businesses which blatantly wasn't spam actually offering their services to help me. Would I class that as spam or not?

The point I'm making is aside from the very obvious examples I gave above, unsolicited marketing emails are either spam or not, DEPENDING UPON THE PERSON WHO RECEIVED IT. To those who don't need or want nursery photography, it's SPAM. To those who do, it's a good MARKETING EMAIL.



KIPAX said:
if it looks like spam, tastes like spam, sounds like spam and smells like spam then the chances are...it's spam..

an unsolicited commercial email is spam.. how does the sender know how the reciever is paying for there internet time/connection? If you recieve a reverse charge phone call and it turns out to be an advert.. or you pay postage on a letter that turns out to be an advert... thats not right... if your paying for bandwidth usage then your paying to recieve an advert.. thats spam...

well it used to be and in my definition it still is spam..

I make no claims as to the legality of it.. only the terminology... its spam no matter how much jam or brown sauce you slap on it.. its still spam..
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spam is defined as unsolicted commercial email.. I find some amusing.. but its still spam.. if i didnt agree to it then its spam.


I could make a fortune telling people how to make there manhood bigger..

just rub it!!!!!


:)
 
KIPAX said:
if it looks like spam, tastes like spam, sounds like spam and smells like spam then the chances are...it's spam.

The regulations don't apply to business to business communications. In this case it seems that although a personal email address was used, it was used to negotiate a service from a supplier on behalf of an organisation so it was no longer "private".

In addition, as a contract to supply (advertising) was negotiated then the supplier was within their rights to send further marketing emails (or allow a third party to do so) i.e. the email wasn't unsolicited and wasn't spam (with jam or otherwise). :)

Of course, that doesn't stop it being questionable business practice and, as both companies involved have found out, risks the potential loss of unhappy customers. But as Gary pointed out it can be a good way of generating business.
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Dont think you get it Gary.

I do Family days at schools on a Saturday . I shoot 30 + familys in that day I do 10mins. I get the kids and adults to doo all that you would see in the Venture studio.

I have preset informal poses. If I go outside those poses I will go past my time line and then chaos ensues.

the product is higher than school work but nowhere near that of a High street studio in prices.

This Saturday can turn 3k I am fully booked with no days off from Sept to Dec.

It works and is by no means shoddy.

Spending and hour with each family is not doable and is a crazy way to do it. You need to shoot at least 4 families an hour. Its not art its getting the best out of each family.

Its better than owning a studio. no overheads and a set client base already there.
As fo Hlay, Roddy is a damn good tog. he has booked 60+ nurseries and schools since Xmas. That must turn over nearly £115k just on the new bookings.

He has grown and taking on staff. That is good business so knock it fellas.
 
Daryl said:
Dont think you get it Gary.

I do Family days at schools on a Saturday . I shoot 30 + familys in that day I do 10mins. I get the kids and adults to doo all that you would see in the Venture studio.

I have preset informal poses. If I go outside those poses I will go past my time line and then chaos ensues.

the product is higher than school work but nowhere near that of a High street studio.

This Saturday can turn 3k I am fully booked with no days off from Sept to Dec.

It works and is by no means shooddy.

Spending and hour with each family is not doable and is a crazy way to do it. You need to shoot at least 4 families an hour.

Its better than owning a studio. no overheads and a set client base already there.
As fo Hlay, Roddy is a damn good tog. he has booked 60+ nurseries and schools since Xmas. That must turn over nearly £115k just on the new bookings.

He has grown and taking on staff. That is good business so knock it fellas.
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I do get it, 100%. We have three nurseries on our books, have our foot in the door in a local school, and have big plans to expand into schools & nurseries via other photographers, nationwide (ditto RE portraits). It will cost about £4K a month to start it, but the potential is endless.

With regards to my comments RE prices & 10 minute session, I read it as part of the "family portrait sitting", away from schools. It would be obscene for me to shoot for only 10 minutes in my shop, unless I want "nursery & school prices", which frankly I would not get out of bed for.

As for the income from a school, you can turn just as good with a fully booked studio. If you shoot 10 families over a weekend with average sales of £300 a pop, do that every weekend, and do another 5 or 6 midweek, the maths soon add up. Obviously, you want to do both. I am in a position via my other company to bankroll this for as long as I need, I am very confident that I will be turning a good profit soon.

Gary.
 
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