Another US mass shooting!

Gramps, I suppose I've interviewed several hundred people who were involved in armed robberies - mainly with firearms - during the last 10 years or so. I'm not exaggerating. I worked in a security consulting role and they were clients' employees, mainly, but not all, in retail situations. Its ugly and frightening but very few of these situations - or hijackings - result in death or serious injury. Small comfort I suppose, and I'm not making making light of your friends experience. Maybe my own perspectives have just become distorted.

I can understand why you're baffled, but I'm South African on my mother's side and both my kids were born and brought up there. They still live in Joburg but have British passports, so they can move to the UK/EU if they want to, but neither of them has any desire to leave. My daughter has visited the UK several times, and worked in London briefly, and is firmly convinced that she doesn't want to live here.

This probably sounds a bit facile, but Africa gets into you. The sun, blue skies, wide open spaces, the bush, endless beaches and mountains, and the people. The violence is part of Africa's tragedy, but I miss SA like hell, warts and all, and I will go back.
 
Don't get me wrong I love Africa too, been to Kenya, Egypt, Gambia and love it, love the people ... but SA has a reputation of its own.
 
Davec223 said:
Having worked in the firearms trade, I really don't get the hysteria when there is a shooting, if the person didn't have a gun, they would use something else, a knife, a car, a motorbike, baseball bat. Don't get me wrong I have every sympathy with the people caught up in these situations, but banning guns will not solve anything.
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:thumbs:The problem is always the same, all over the world. It isn't the gun that causes the problem, it's always the person who has the gun.
Some countries (or, in the case of the USA, some States) allow just about anyone to have access to guns, and because of this they have high rates of gun crime.

Here in the UK, legal gun ownership is very strictly controlled and gun crime committed by people who hold guns legally is virtually non existent, where gun crime does exist, it's almost all carried out criminals who have obtained the guns illegally.

The very occasional exceptions have all involved people who have either been granted shotgun or firearms certificates when they shouldn't have been, or haven't had them revoked when all the warning signs were there. That's a problem with administration, not with guns.
 
These make news because it's all at once, and we can all denounce the USA and other countries, but there are shooting every couple of days in Liverpool at the moment, 2000 guns taken off the streets of Liverpool 2008-2011
 
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acetone said:
These make news because it's all at once, and we can all denounce the USA and other countries, but there are shooting every couple of days in Liverpool at the moment, 2000 guns taken off the streets of Liverpool 2008-2011
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And they probably haven't even made a dent in the number of guns on the street.
 
Multiple deaths at a mass shooting in Florida. Won’t be long before the American politicians talk about “thoughts and prayers” before doing sweet f*** all.
 
Garry Edwards said:
(y)The problem is always the same, all over the world. It isn't the gun that causes the problem, it's always the person who has the gun.
Some countries (or, in the case of the USA, some States) allow just about anyone to have access to guns, and because of this they have high rates of gun crime.

Here in the UK, legal gun ownership is very strictly controlled and gun crime committed by people who hold guns legally is virtually non existent, where gun crime does exist, it's almost all carried out criminals who have obtained the guns illegally.

The very occasional exceptions have all involved people who have either been granted shotgun or firearms certificates when they shouldn't have been, or haven't had them revoked when all the warning signs were there. That's a problem with administration, not with guns.
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Its all about the guns
In some US states you can buy guns like we buy milk and some states also allow you to carry the gun whereas in Denmark if your cought with one you wont get home for months
So here they are taking a lot of effort to keep their guns hidden away and only a few dares to carry them on a daily basis also because the illigal guns are a lot more expensive than the legal ones in US

These things makes gun crime very diffrent
Where guns are readilly available you see a lot of random shootings happen on impulse
here in Denmark shootings happen but they are restricted to within the invironment of the criminals, collateral damage is very rare.
And training with illigal guns is more difficult here so the actual killrates are also very low

Offcource killings can happen with knives, cars etc. but fatalities wont be as high now concrete block is spread around cities as litter and knives simply arent as effective

The tragedy added is people here stops caring about the the shootings in US
 
soeren said:
The tragedy added is people here stops caring about the the shootings in US
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Why should we care or let it bother us, when it seems as though the majority of Americans are happy with their obscene gun laws.
 
soeren said:
Its all about the guns
In some US states you can buy guns like we buy milk and some states also allow you to carry the gun whereas in Denmark if your cought with one you wont get home for months
So here they are taking a lot of effort to keep their guns hidden away and only a few dares to carry them on a daily basis also because the illigal guns are a lot more expensive than the legal ones in US

These things makes gun crime very diffrent
Where guns are readilly available you see a lot of random shootings happen on impulse
here in Denmark shootings happen but they are restricted to within the invironment of the criminals, collateral damage is very rare.
And training with illigal guns is more difficult here so the actual killrates are also very low

Offcource killings can happen with knives, cars etc. but fatalities wont be as high now concrete block is spread around cities as litter and knives simply arent as effective

The tragedy added is people here stops caring about the the shootings in US
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No, think about what you wrote, you disagree with me, saying that the problem is with the guns not with the people, but in reality you are saying the same thing as I am - that the guns are far too readily available to the wrong people.
This doesn't only apply to Americans of course, its at least as bad in some African countries where there is either a shortage of legal control or a shortage of legal enforcement, everyone carries a gun and hardly anyone has been trained in their use, resulting in mayhem.
 
Garry Edwards said:
No, think about what you wrote, you disagree with me, saying that the problem is with the guns not with the people, but in reality you are saying the same thing as I am - that the guns are far too readily available to the wrong people.
This doesn't only apply to Americans of course, its at least as bad in some African countries where there is either a shortage of legal control or a shortage of legal enforcement, everyone carries a gun and hardly anyone has been trained in their use, resulting in mayhem.
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Well yes we partly agree.
The problem is the (some) Americans will not even discuss restrictions in availability of guns, not even assault rifle type thus making very efficient killng machines available for almost everybody fast and cheap. You can always argue its people who does the killing but as with everything else it's faster and more efficient with the right tools. Add to that the fact that you can get p***ed in the morning, go buy an AR and be back shooting before lunch!!!!!!! What's The average fatalities in these shootings, how long does they go on and how many kills can you make with a knive or baseball batt in that time? Not that many.
 
Yes, that's about it.
But it's a fairly small minority of Americans who are gun nuts, the vast majority don't have or want them, and the minority that does has vast numbers, and huge stocks of ammo. They waffle on about their rights and freedoms, but the reality is that big business controls the politicians and stops change from happening.

Just one example of the massive ammo hoarding - I have a rifle that takes .17 HMR and my firearms certificate allows me to keep 150 rounds, which is fine, but for a long time, none was available because the Americans were buying all of it, in the fear that Obamha might manage to restrict it at some point in the future - crazy!
 
Garry Edwards said:
Yes, that's about it.
But it's a fairly small minority of Americans who are gun nuts, the vast majority don't have or want them, and the minority that does has vast numbers, and huge stocks of ammo. They waffle on about their rights and freedoms, but the reality is that big business controls the politicians and stops change from happening.

Just one example of the massive ammo hoarding - I have a rifle that takes .17 HMR and my firearms certificate allows me to keep 150 rounds, which is fine, but for a long time, none was available because the Americans were buying all of it, in the fear that Obamha might manage to restrict it at some point in the future - crazy!
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I have no doubt that the stockpiling of ammo in the US has reached even higher levels after the election of Trump, because the US is such a divided nation. There is a deepseated hatred between the far right and far left, and I think that it could kick off in a big way.
 
Mr Bump said:
The yanks they love their guns.
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I think it simply comes down to that. They love their guns in the same way as I love a chicken vindaloo or a nice glass of Gigondas. The big, major problem is that it is as easy for them (and probably quicker) to buy a gun as it is for me to satiate my eating and drinking desires. They also see a gun as an essential, much as I view a hat as essential when I go out on a sunny day.
How on earth do you turn the clock back on that mindset?
Mind you, even turning the clock back isn't going to do anything, because Americans have been killing each other with guns in the US since they arrived as settlers.
 
Banning bump stocks would be a good start to things. They are nothing more than spray-and-pray devices - a choice accessory for indiscriminate mass killing.
 
andy700 said:
I think it simply comes down to that. They love their guns in the same way as I love a chicken vindaloo or a nice glass of Gigondas. The big, major problem is that it is as easy for them (and probably quicker) to buy a gun as it is for me to satiate my eating and drinking desires. They also see a gun as an essential, much as I view a hat as essential when I go out on a sunny day.
How on earth do you turn the clock back on that mindset?
Mind you, even turning the clock back isn't going to do anything, because Americans have been killing each other with guns in the US since they arrived as settlers.
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they do there just fancy toys to them like a cordless drill or a new ipone or an AR15 or a glock, they love em.
 
I don't have a problem with guns, but I think if it was legally enforced that they were to be kept at a gun range with all the expected signing in and out security measures it would surely help reduce the number of deaths caused by firearms, be it accidental or deliberate? I stress the word "reduce" and not "eliminate".

Jim Jefferies does a pretty interesting sketch on guns in America, I particularly like the home defence bit.
 
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gman said:
I don't have a problem with guns, but I think if it was legally enforced that they were to be kept at a gun range with all the expected signing in and out security measures it would surely help reduce the number of deaths caused by firearms, be it accidental or deliberate? I stress the word "reduce" and not "eliminate".

Jim Jefferies does a pretty interesting sketch on guns in America, I particularly like the home defence bit.
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If you're talking about America, the gun lobby would never accept that because it would remove their right to bear arms (which of course was a collective rather than an individual right) and would cost the gun trade a fortune.
If you're talking about the U.K., no point as crime involving licensed gun owners is virtually non existent. It would just make guns easier to steal, as criminals would know where to find them.
I repeat, the problem is with the people, not with the guns. We don't have a problem in the U.K. because we limit the possession of guns to trustworthy people.
 
The 2nd Amendment was all very good before the government had access to armour and airpower but now it's a pretty weak excuse. But yes, the gun lobby is big and powerful so difficult to beat. The UK system certainly demonstrates how you can still have firearms with minimal risk. But money talks...
 
Garry Edwards said:
If you're talking about America, the gun lobby would never accept that because it would remove their right to bear arms (which of course was a collective rather than an individual right) and would cost the gun trade a fortune.
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Read District of Columbia v. Heller, 554 U.S. 570 (2008) which unequivocally states that it is an individual right. That is a Supreme Court decision, and still the leading case on this topic.
 
MartynK said:
Read District of Columbia v. Heller, 554 U.S. 570 (2008) which unequivocally states that it is an individual right. That is a Supreme Court decision, and still the leading case on this topic.
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Yes, and I know about that, but originally it was a collective right, so that the people could protect themselves against a corrupt government.
That decision means that the USA can never have any form of effective gun control, and is doomed to a future of endless accidental and deliberate violence.
 
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