Another Senseless Slaying in the USA

andy700 said:
Blimey Pete, I could take out someone at half a mile with a rifle, and that is based on recent results.
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I remember the "warning" on the .22 ammo I shot with that it was lethal at up to 1 mile. Whether there was a 22 rifle that could be accurate at that range I have no idea bearing in mind it was rimfire and I was shooting in an indoor range. Though I did like the Martini Henry action compared to the anshutz (?spelling) bolt action. But being I digress.....whether accuracy is achieved by the miscreant or not firing that handgun will likely wound or kill someone if not that intended victim!
 
big soft moose said:
Not really -someone with a major artery cut with a knife is probably less likely to survive than someone with a bullet in the chest - plus any fool can use a knife it takes a degree of skill to hit what you are aiming at with a gun
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I wonder how knife inflicted fatalities compare to gunshot ones in the USA, because guns are so everyday there, are the gun deaths markedly higher. A gun used, in many ways, is impersonal whereas a knife is so much more up close & personal.......yes the real crazy type will use what ever comes to hand but does the fact that a knife requires close contact change the dynamics compared to shootings that seem more senseless (based on the apparent motivation) like the parking lot killing I read about?

The one that started this thread had on the face of it the more crazy end of the spectrum but would that parking lot shooter have ended up killing if he had a knife rather than a gun???

In the end I don't doubt the gun owner/user that kills is more of a coward than the knife wielder, not that the latter is any way brave in the moral sense of the word. All such perpetrators are IMO cowards.
 
Simplythebeast said:
I would rather face someone with a knife than someone with a gun anyday. This conversation is just getting silly.
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I'd rather not face any violent crime myself ...

I couldn't care less to distinguish between them, or a lead pipe or 12" fists.
 
jakeblu said:
Personally i hope its neither, ever. But yeah a knife is preferable gives you a fighting chance
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Actually, speaking now from experience through my military training. In close quarter it wouldn't make that much of a difference unless someone is a highly trained shot.
 
andy700 said:
That has a lot to do with their totally ridiculous political system IMO. You would think that the POTUS has the final say - not in a million years.
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Not really any different to our system. PM doesn't have the final say here either. Just a figurehead.
Matters here go through the commons and lords; in the US they go through congress and the senate.
 
Box Brownie said:
I remember the "warning" on the .22 ammo I shot with that it was lethal at up to 1 mile. Whether there was a 22 rifle that could be accurate at that range I have no idea bearing in mind it was rimfire and I was shooting in an indoor range. Though I did like the Martini Henry action compared to the anshutz (?spelling) bolt action. But being I digress.....whether accuracy is achieved by the miscreant or not firing that handgun will likely wound or kill someone if not that intended victim!
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I think that Anschutz were legendary (along with Lothar Walther) for their rifle barrel making and accuracy of their guns, and often supplied barrels to other rifle manufacturers - Feinwerkbau being an example.

Your last point is exactly the reason why large scale gun ownership in any country is so dangerous.
 
Box Brownie said:
I remember the "warning" on the .22 ammo I shot with that it was lethal at up to 1 mile. Whether there was a 22 rifle that could be accurate at that range I have no idea
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I've killed rabbits with a sub-sonic .22 rimmy at 50 yards on a still cool evening, and foxes at double that, with a high velocity round,
I personally wouldn't trust either to be accurate over much more.

The thinking behind it is that .22 rim fire high velocity round has the potential to travel up to a mile.
Baring in mind that a hollow point .22 rimmy head only weighs about 35-40 grains
So the wind and atmospheric pressure will have a baring on accuracy.

For example a .243 (deer round) is more than double that @ 90-100 grains
And the good ultimate stopping power carry colt .45 acp @ 200-250 grains.
(there are 7000 grains to the lb)

 
Cobra said:
I've killed rabbits with a sub-sonic .22 rimmy at 50 yards on a still cool evening, and foxes at double that, with a high velocity round,
I personally wouldn't trust either to be accurate over much more.

The thinking behind it is that .22 rim fire high velocity round has the potential to travel up to a mile.
Baring in mind that a hollow point .22 rimmy head only weighs about 35-40 grains
So the wind and atmospheric pressure will have a baring on accuracy.

For example a .243 (deer round) is more than double that @ 90-100 grains
And the good ultimate stopping power carry colt .45 acp @ 200-250 grains.
(there are 7000 grains to the lb)
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The public watch crappy films where the hero can shoot someone with a handgun whilst galloping on a horse or leaning out of a car window at 200 yards, the actual accurate range for a skilled shooter with a handgun, in good conditions but in an emergency situation, is probably around 15 yards....
The films also show a perfectly still image through a telescopic sight, which again is nonsense. Even when bench-rested or lying prone, the image jumps around all over the place at high magnification. The limitation is always the shooter, not the equipment.

The long and short of it is that a gun is only as accurate as the person holding it, and nowhere near as effective as it appears to be in the films.
The fatality ratio for battlefield use is around 1 kill per 5000 rounds fired
 
Garry Edwards said:
The public watch crappy films where the hero can shoot someone with a handgun whilst galloping on a horse or leaning out of a car window at 200 yards, the actual accurate range for a skilled shooter with a handgun, in good conditions but in an emergency situation, is probably around 15 yards....
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I can't argue with that, but we were talking rifles ;)
 
andy700 said:
I don't think a sniper would be happy with that ratio Gary:)
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By contrast, a sniper team's ratio (British army) is 1.3 - 1
 
Box Brownie said:
I remember the "warning" on the .22 ammo I shot with that it was lethal at up to 1 mile. Whether there was a 22 rifle that could be accurate at that range I have no idea bearing in mind it was rimfire and I was shooting in an indoor range. Though I did like the Martini Henry action compared to the anshutz (?spelling) bolt action. But being I digress.....whether accuracy is achieved by the miscreant or not firing that handgun will likely wound or kill someone if not that intended victim!
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The kill range of a .22 rf is definately in excess of 1 mile, but the practical range is probably sub 100 yards, the ones I fire (subsonic) drop very dramatically over about 70 yards. The point blank range is 67 yards.
 
big soft moose said:
Have you ever faced either ?
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Strangely enough yes. As a Police Officer for 36 years I have faced people armed with knives several times. I have faced people armed with guns twice but once was an airweapon and the other a shotgun which though pointed towards me turned out to be unloaded. In both cases I was not aware of the status of the weapons and I was armed on all ocassions with only a Police Radio and a truncheon. We had not been issued Incapacitant spray, taser of firearms in my early Police days.
 
Simplythebeast said:
Strangely enough yes. As a Police Officer for 36 years I have faced people armed with knives several times. I have faced people armed with guns twice but once was an airweapon and the other a shotgun which though pointed towards me turned out to be unloaded. In both cases I was not aware of the status of the weapons and I was armed on all ocassions with only a Police Radio and a truncheon. We had not been issued Incapacitant spray, taser of firearms in my early Police days.
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In which case you must know that what you wrote was b*****ks - if you are dealing with someone with a gun up close you have a reasonable chance of knocking it to one side or closing the distance to the point at which it can't easily be employed, not to mention that there's a high chance of a non professional missing with his first shot anyway , if you try that with a knife you have a high chance of getting fatally cut
 
big soft moose said:
In which case you must know that what you wrote was b*****ks - if you are dealing with someone with a gun up close you have a reasonable chance of knocking it to one side or closing the distance to the point at which it can't easily be employed, not to mention that there's a high chance of a non professional missing with his first shot anyway , if you try that with a knife you have a high chance of getting fatally cut
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What the hell???
 
big soft moose said:
In which case you must know that what you wrote was b*****ks - if you are dealing with someone with a gun up close you have a reasonable chance of knocking it to one side or closing the distance to the point at which it can't easily be employed, not to mention that there's a high chance of a non professional missing with his first shot anyway , if you try that with a knife you have a high chance of getting fatally cut
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In all fairness Pete the only one talking b*****ks here is you. Mr TV man wasn't a professional shooter yet he was able to shoot and kill two people, personally I think the chances of him killing both with a knife would have been considerable lower.

BTW most people who come face to face with a gun sh!t themselves.
 
I would never put myself in 'knocking the gun to one side range' only a complete fool would do that unless it was unavoidable. Fortunately those were not the circumstances in any of the events I have been involved in. I was Police Officer, trained in the correct methods of the time in dealing with such threats and I dealt with them. Perhaps being a Police Officer in such circumstances I was supposed to run and close the distance thereby encouraging the subject to fire at me, imstead of using common sense, patience and negotiating skills before resorting to outright stupidity and getting myself killed. Something my wife would have been a little miffed about.
Sorry but Im just not the hero you obviously are Moose.
 
In interesting analysis on knives vs guns from a one of todays foremost martial artist.

 
ianp5a said:
Precisely. Read the post before yours. If you hadn't used the blocking ignore user function, that is.
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Wow, that is quite random, expecting me to react to a comment made in a previous post which I was not aware of.
I simply thought that you had replied to the wrong poster.
Life is full of surprises.
 
andy700 said:
Wow, that is quite random, expecting me to react to a comment made in a previous post which I was not aware of.
I simply thought that you had replied to the wrong poster.
Life is full of surprises.
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The ignore function is a wonderful tool and we do advocate its use on several occasions, the problem is of course it can b****r up a discussion at times :D
 
Simplythebeast said:
I would never put myself in 'knocking the gun to one side range' only a complete fool would do that unless it was unavoidable. Fortunately those were not the circumstances in any of the events I have been involved in. I was Police Officer, trained in the correct methods of the time in dealing with such threats and I dealt with them. Perhaps being a Police Officer in such circumstances I was supposed to run and close the distance thereby encouraging the subject to fire at me, imstead of using common sense, patience and negotiating skills before resorting to outright stupidity and getting myself killed. Something my wife would have been a little miffed about.
Sorry but Im just not the hero you obviously are Moose.
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admittedly I'm not talking from personal experience (the only time ive been shot at was at much longer range and running like hell was the appropriate response) - but this is what i'm told by friends in the forces (one a Royal Marine and the other in the rifles) who have actually been in that situation, and who have actually faced loaded weaponry in the hands of those willing to use it. Likewise they also say that facing a pistol you are at greater risk at medium range than you are up close.

I absolutely agree with you that patience and negotiating skills are the optimal solution where possible in the sort of situation that you describe for a police officer, but these aren't really an option in the sort of scenario this thread is about where you are being attacked by a homicidal nut case

My friend Jamie (the royal marine) says that he fears a blade within 10ft more than he would a pistol at the same range for the reasons outlined in my post above, and he has substantial experience in facing both knives and guns.

I do respect your police experience and I apologise for using the phrase 'talking b*****ks 'which was uncalled for , but at the same time i'd put money that a royal marine has better training and more experience of up close combat situations than the average bobby. Plus having a different remit as they are there to fight and overcome not negotiate and effect a peaceful solution

All of which is broadly irrelevant to the topic as the guy on the video essentially ambushes his victims so they don't get a chance to either resist/negotiate/or flee, but he could have effected the same sort of blitz attack with a knife had he not had easy access to a gun, so i'd still say that its not necessarily the ease of access to weaponry that is the root cause of the incident
 
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andy700 said:
Blimey Pete, I could take out someone at half a mile with a rifle, and that is based on recent results.
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You might, but not your ordinary average person. Half a mile is not easy at all. To me that just demonstrates a suitable large willy that rightfully can be waved but not many can do that. Heck many wouldn't even be able to hit me with a pistol from the other side of the street unless they throw it at me ;)
 
dejongj said:
You might, but not your ordinary average person. Half a mile is not easy at all. To me that just demonstrates a suitable large willy that rightfully can be waved but not many can do that. Heck many wouldn't even be able to hit me with a pistol from the other side of the street unless they throw it at me ;)
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Of course it isn't easy, but it can be done, and it just demonstrates how dangerous rifles (or for that matter any firearm) really are. Still conditions where the flags are barely moving, nicely relaxed so the heart rate comes down, take the first pressure on the trigger and then squeeze as you let your breath out. Mind you it does take a bit of practice, and forget it if the wind is blowing.
I think that the majority of people would fail to hit the target from 10 to 15 metres with a pistol (me included), because there are so many things to think of.
 
andy700 said:
Of course it isn't easy, but it can be done, and it just demonstrates how dangerous rifles (or for that matter any firearm) really are. Still conditions where the flags are barely moving, nicely relaxed so the heart rate comes down, take the first pressure on the trigger and then squeeze as you let your breath out. Mind you it does take a bit of practice, and forget it if the wind is blowing.
I think that the majority of people would fail to hit the target from 10 to 15 metres with a pistol (me included), because there are so many things to think of.
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Which is exactly my point. I did reach sharp shooter status in my sidearm but only after a very extensive period of training by the very best. The movies make it look so easy and unfortunately that is most people's only "experience" to base their comment on. Reality is rather different.
 
But can you record a smartphone video at the same time as killing a news team?:(
 
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dejongj said:
Which is exactly my point. I did reach sharp shooter status in my sidearm but only after a very extensive period of training by the very best. The movies make it look so easy and unfortunately that is most people's only "experience" to base their comment on. Reality is rather different.
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In real life misses are far more common than than Hits except in target shooting. I shot as a boy , cadet and was a marksman in the army. Today I doubt I could guarantee to hit a garage door. Target shooting gives time for preparation and routine. Shooting at a live target that is rarely as still or as cooperative as a paper target. Is quite a different prospect. And they will probably shoot back if you miss.

Street crime as in the OP has simply a way of settling perceived slights and grudges. People have guns in the USA and very many know how to use them effectively, even if they are mentally deranged in some way.
I am sure the shooter in this case, had he been asked some time ago, would have said that his gun was only for his protection, that he was trained in its use and anyway it is not the gun, but the criminal user who is the real danger. all seemingly sound arguments. Nevertheless he though it a good Idea to go out and shoot two previous colleges.

Gun culture exacerbates Gun Crime.
 
Llamaman said:
Pistols must be rubbish then. When I used to do archery I could consistently hit a target at 90m.
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But not necessarily a killing shot at a person.

Short barreled hand guns are inherently inaccurate, and difficult to control. But then neither do they have the stopping power of a hunting arrow.
But who carries Hunting bows on the street, and how many could even pull one.
 
Rapscallion said:
In interesting analysis on knives vs guns from a one of todays foremost martial artist.

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The last marsh arts expert, that I read about taking on a gunman, was killed before he touched him.
 
ianp5a said:
But can you record a smartphone video at the same time as killing a news team?:(
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I could probably have attached a GoPro to the riser or the long rod, if they had existed back then...
 
I'm sure there's a special go pro fitting available at psychopath.com for the digitally savvy nutters. To capture that " special moment". They always need a souvenir, if TV crime dramas are anything to go by.
 
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Terrywoodenpic said:
But not necessarily a killing shot at a person.

Short barreled hand guns are inherently inaccurate, and difficult to control. But then neither do they have the stopping power of a hunting arrow.
But who carries Hunting bows on the street, and how many could even pull one.
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Hunters would use a compound bow - much more powerful than the sport recurve I was using.
My bow wasn't designed as a killing weapon and nor were the arrows, but I still wouldn't want to be hit by one, especially at 20m where the arrow is still moving very quickly.

And carrying a bow in the street is illegal I believe - even if it's taken down it needs to be packed out of view in a case or a policeman will be having a quiet word...
 
ianp5a said:
They always need a souvenir, if TV crime dramas are anything to go by.
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Ted Bundy.
Ed Gein.
Anatoly Onoprienko.
Jeffrey Dahmer.

To name just a few.

No crime drama required.
 
Terrywoodenpic said:
But then neither do they have the stopping power of a hunting arrow.
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A .45 long colt round will stop an Elephant.
a .45 acp round with stop a human dead in his tracks.
A 100 grain tipped arrow may well pass through someone and inconvenience them unless of course its a heart shot,
going at around 300ft/sec/sec.

A 225g grain .45 going at around 800ft/sec/sec may pass through at close range, but will make a hell of a mess on the way out.
 
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