Another Senseless Slaying in the USA

Since Columbine in 1999, there have been 154 shootings in American schools which resulted in death and or injury. Obama himself said that no other developed nation in the world has this problem. Some years ago, I read that a young American dies in this way every 15 minutes. Says it all to me about their right to bear arms.
 
Chipper said:
Since Columbine in 1999, there have been 154 shootings in American schools which resulted in death and or injury. Obama himself said that no other developed nation in the world has this problem. Some years ago, I read that a young American dies in this way every 15 minutes. Says it all to me about their right to bear arms.
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I'm not sure about those states without a source, my point is that to compare stats like for like one should compare all violent crime not just that involving firearms as that may provide a skewed picture.
 
In this country, knives and guns are illegal, but I could get hold of a knife in a few seconds. I certainly wouldn't be able to get hold of a gun easily at all, so I will never be likely to shoot anyone.
So I don't think we should be relating knife crime in any way to gun crime
 
ianp5a said:
Yes
In brief, start working on de-glamourising guns. Erode the US addiction to guns. Increase the number of states that accept tighter gun laws. Reducing the market for them and thus reducing the numbers manufactured. Thus reducing availability. Thus reducing the need for defensive guns. A lot of smart people in the US welcome this.
You might throw your hands in the air and say nothing can be done. But you should look at the long term picture. Today's situation is all just symptoms of the past. There is plenty that can and is being done. It will take a while. Which is why they have to make a start. It's better than doing nothing, and thus perpetuating the slaughter forever.
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It's their country, their business. It's not our place to interfere.
 
ianp5a said:
That doesn't make any sense. I'm sure they'd prefer their families to survive with just a kicking or stabbing.
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A lot don't. We have very few guns here and people still get murdered. I bet the killer here would have just killed those poor people, just in a different way.

Bobsyeruncle said:
In this country, knives and guns are illegal, but I could get hold of a knife in a few seconds. I certainly wouldn't be able to get hold of a gun easily at all, so I will never be likely to shoot anyone.
So I don't think we should be relating knife crime in any way to gun crime
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You'd still be able to stab someone to death if you were so inclined.

Guns don't kill people, people do.
 
Simplythebeast said:
I've been to America and might even go again if they are lucky. Dont do guns though and think from the firearms perspective the USA is totally screwed up. The answer to violence always seems to be more violence.
Just saying.
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That's not an american way - it's a human thing.
 
Raincloud said:
Look, everyone and their dog owns a gun in America! They feel as though it is their God given right! It needs to be changed! It is so easy for anyone to carry a gun in the USA. They even take them into church with them!!
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Gun ownership in Switzerland is the highest in the world. Don't know if it still is , but you used to do your national service then take your kit and gun home as you were in the reserves from then on

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-21379912

It's not an issue with the number of guns in circulation, but who they are given to.
 
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Bobsyeruncle said:
In this country, knives and guns are illegal, but I could get hold of a knife in a few seconds. I certainly wouldn't be able to get hold of a gun easily at all, so I will never be likely to shoot anyone.
So I don't think we should be relating knife crime in any way to gun crime
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£250 to rent a handgun for a day, £5 a round used is the going rate for a pool gun. Unknown in the area and you'd need to be vouched for, but it doesn't take long to drink in a couple of pubs in certain areas. It's actually surprisingly easy for some.
 
Bobsyeruncle said:
In this country, knives and guns are illegal, but I could get hold of a knife in a few seconds. I certainly wouldn't be able to get hold of a gun easily at all, so I will never be likely to shoot anyone.
So I don't think we should be relating knife crime in any way to gun crime
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That's strange, because I have quite a lot of guns - am I doing something illegal?
 
dejongj said:
my point is that to compare stats like for like one should compare all violent crime not just that involving firearms as that may provide a skewed picture.
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If you compare just murder rates its 4.7/100,000 in the US and 1.0/100,000 in the UK. I'm sure theres lots of social reasons for that, but at the end of the day guns make violent crime easier. I know one could use a knife to commit this sort of crime, but having a gun makes it far easier
 
Byker28i said:
Gun ownership in Switzerland is the highest in the world. Don't know if it still is , but you used to do your national service then take your kit and gun home as you were in the reserves from then on

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-21379912

It's not an issue with the number of guns in circulation, but who they are given to.
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I believe Switzerland has a very low gun crime rate, and an extremely high gun suicide rate.
 
Bobsyeruncle said:
In this country, knives and guns are illegal, but I could get hold of a knife in a few seconds. I certainly wouldn't be able to get hold of a gun easily at all, so I will never be likely to shoot anyone.
So I don't think we should be relating knife crime in any way to gun crime
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Byker28i said:
£250 to rent a handgun for a day, £5 a round used is the going rate for a pool gun. Unknown in the area and you'd need to be vouched for, but it doesn't take long to drink in a couple of pubs in certain areas. It's actually surprisingly easy for some.
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@Bobsyeruncle i think it merely highlights your lack of interest in getting one. If you want one it is fairly easy to get one.
 
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boyfalldown said:
If you compare just murder rates its 4.7/100,000 in the US and 1.0/100,000 in the UK. I'm sure theres lots of social reasons for that, but at the end of the day guns make violent crime easier. I know one could use a knife to commit this sort of crime, but having a gun makes it far easier
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Thank you, I was looking for the overall violent crime figures and couldn't find those. That is interesting to see it is still 5x as bad. Hmmmm.

I blame the immigrants :) :p
 
'History has shown that men and nations act wisely only once they have exhausted all other possibilities.'
 
Byker28i said:
Gun ownership in Switzerland is the highest in the world. Don't know if it still is , but you used to do your national service then take your kit and gun home as you were in the reserves from then on

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-21379912

It's not an issue with the number of guns in circulation, but who they are given to.
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Actually the USA has the highest number of guns per 100 population followed by Yemen and Serbia but yes Switzerland is up there so domt go into a shop there and complain about the chocolate.
 
Anyhoo......... does anyone really care what happens in the USA except those who live there...really? Its up to them what they do and how they do it and we shouldnt try to impose our values or ideas on them. After all the USA wouldnt do that to any other Country would it.
 
I think the point has been completely missed by America and its obsession with guns to the point they now cannot be separated from there way of life.
They still think its the wild west and years of easily available guns for criminals to get there hands on mean that the average American despite his/her common sense has to arm themselves. Donkeys years ago you had your rifle and pistol to protect your family and livestock mainly from bandits because you lived in the boonies. Now people live in concrete towns and cities and just build up their guns and rage behind closed doors.

Would this crime have been committed if he didn't have access to a gun, I don't know society gave him the right to the gun and let him fulfill his anger.
 
First of all, I think that US gun laws are insane, the ownership and the numbers of people killed by them every year.
However, they are never going to change despite the mealy mouthed objections from politicians like Obama and Hilary Clinton.
Therefore, I would rather not hear about any more US shootings on our media, because the news reports do not affect us and are as pointless as the slayings themselves.
 
ST4 said:
So do I. Switzerland doesn't have many immigration issues but high gun ownership and low murder rates.
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My comment was firmly tongue in cheek since everyone in the USA is an immigrant ;) well as good as.
 
ST4 said:
People kill themselves. Guns make it easier and cleaner to do so. Less messy than jumping infront of a moving train, off a bridge, hanging yourself or the old razor in a hot bath trick.
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Shooting ones self is cleaner than hanging?
Ok o_O
 
We have a low murder rate in this country, only 1 in 100,000 compared to the USA 4.7 per 100,000. That puts us 29th in list of deaths by homicide. Some of that will be due to social factors and some due to gun control, because despite what some say here, it is easier to kill, especially multiple kills, with a firearm. If the guy who killed the reporters had been armed with a knife then there is a very real chance that both of his victims may be alive today.
 
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andy700 said:
However, they are never going to change .
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Things will change. Not as fast as we'd like. But it'll happen.

Some in the USA point out that the majority of killings occur in the bad areas. "I live in a safe neighbourhood. I know which freeway exits to avoid. So I'm all right Jack!".
But many in the USA do care about the huge and continuous death toll, regardless of the fact they live in a a"safe" neighbourhood. And will do something about it.
Where I live it's pretty safe. But I also care about the killing in the USA. Even if you don't get killed or wounded in the USA, you still lack freedom to go into any neighbourhood. You need to know which areas to avoid. Or what to do if you make a wrong turn.

It's a bad situation that kills tens of thousands and affects millions. If you dont care, maybe you think the situation is OK.
 
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ST4 said:
Pleasure, self defence, culture. In this era of civil unrest and crime, guns are great. Many enjoy them. Many like owning dangerous powerful dogs, they serve no purpose but people like to have them,
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There are plenty of studies that indicate that those who carry guns or have guns at home are more likely to be a homicide victim.
 
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andy700 said:
First of all, I think that US gun laws are insane, the ownership and the numbers of people killed by them every year.
However, they are never going to change despite the mealy mouthed objections from politicians like Obama and Hilary Clinton.
Therefore, I would rather not hear about any more US shootings on our media, because the news reports do not affect us and are as pointless as the slayings themselves.
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So using that daft rationale, we should also not be seeing reports on foreign conflicts that don't involve us....chinese chemical explosions that don't involve us...etc etc...
 
ST4 said:
People kill themselves. Guns make it easier and cleaner to do so. Less messy than jumping infront of a moving train, off a bridge, hanging yourself or the old razor in a hot bath trick.
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Shooting yourself is cleaner than hanging yourself? :wacky:

Really.
 
TCR4x4 said:
Err...
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Ahh yes, but they don't have any issues with it. As ever they just get on with life in their peaceful mountains with free flowing chocolate covered firearms ;)
 
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TCR4x4 said:
Err...
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Plus I thought the Swiss model of gun ownership was based their civil defence structure with many reservists being available for call up in rapid response..........if not still the case what is their licensing system for such ownership?

The USA have in effect made owning a gun as simple as buying a TV. As for apparently law abiding citizens and the sort of crime that started this thread, no doubt it is almost impossible to mitigate for the irrational crazy acts but the fact that guns are so to speak "everyday" in that society and their use might be seen impersonal, just how much do people value others lives!

I was listening to an item a few days ago about 4 black guys who were playing the car stereo loudly in the parking area of a petrol station.........another white motorist it seems went out of his way to drive over wind down his window and complain about the noise. It was turned down but turned back up once he had moved away. He returned shouted at them and then pulled out his handgun shooting the driver, then got out of his car to walk around the other car shooting the 3 passengers. The report said a total of 10 shots were fired killing the driver and wounding the other passengers.

The shooter instigated the argument, could or would not "walk" away and leave the matter alone then used lethal force to finish it. If he had no gun there would have been no fatalities. It is tragic in a society that holds up personal freedoms so highly does not equally or should that be to a greater degree the ultimate freedom of the right of life!
 
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Box Brownie said:
If he had no gun there would have been no fatalities.
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Whilst on the whole I agree with you, there's no possible way you can be sure of that.
If someone's fuse pops, there's really no predicting the outcome.
 
jakeblu said:
We have a low murder rate in this country, only 1 in 100,000 compared to the USA 4.7 per 100,000. That puts us 29th in list of deaths by homicide. Some of that will be due to social factors and some due to gun control, because despite what some say here, it is easier to kill, especially multiple kills, with a firearm. If the guy who killed the reporters had been armed with a knife then there is a very real chance that both of his victims may be alive today.
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Lies, damn lies, and statistics. Whilst I'm not disputing the actual statistics, things do get interesting when you broaden it out a bit. For example if you were to look at overall violent crime per 100,00 then the USA is at about 401'ish. Yet the UK is at nearly 1,800 per 100,000 people. But fair enough I would be disingenuous if I didn't highlight that the way the fbi record that figure is differently than the UK. So if we filter out violent crimes where there was not actual injury recorded, merely ;) a threat with the weapon then the UK drops down to about 700. Still 300'ish more than the USA dispute our gun control and many other laws.

Focussing on the weapon is the wrong focus imo. We should focus on the individuals involved.
 
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viv1969 said:
Whilst on the whole I agree with you, there's no possible way you can be sure of that.
If someone's fuse pops, there's really no predicting the outcome.
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A car is pretty good as a ram ;) or a baseball bat or a knife. Yet again there is this focus on the weapon opposed to the person applying it.

Heck thinking about it, what are the statistics of people being killed in traffic by vehicles? Perhaps we should ban those as well.
 
dejongj said:
Lies, damn lies, and statistics. Whilst I'm not disputing the actual statistics, things do get interesting when you broaden it out a bit. For example if you were to look at overall violent crime per 100,00 then the USA is at about 401'ish. Yet the UK is at nearly 1,800 per 100,000 people. But fair enough I would be disingenuous if I didn't highlight that the way the fbi record that figure is differently than the UK. So if we filter out violent crimes where there was not actual injury recorded, merely ;) a threat with the weapon then the UK drops down to about 700. Still 300'ish more than the USA dispute our gun control and many other laws.

Focussing on the weapon is the wrong focus imo. We should focus on the individuals involved.
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Epic post.
 
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