Another Senseless Slaying in the USA

SarahLee said:
Stick to the subject matter, don't make this personal and let's not have any shooting of anyone in the face - or people will find themselves excluded from posting in this topic.

BTW that applies equally to Steve and to anyone else posting in here.
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Might want to apply that to the dog thread too...post 28 ;)
 
That doesn't make any sense. I'm sure they'd prefer their families to survive with just a kicking or stabbing.
 
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what makes me more sad in cases like this is i imagine the two killed might have had nothing to do with the grudge in question.
just puppets in the minds eye of the killers plan to cause as much distress as possible.
 
Raincloud said:
Gun laws in America need changing
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Do you really belief that would have stopped it? Heck only last week a bloke got on a train in Belgium with an AK47, did the gun laws stop that?
 
ianp5a said:
Nicely forgetting all the gun owners who feel they need them out of fear. Don't want them. Not pleasure.
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ST4 said:
You can prove this for a fact?...
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Well you seemed to think it was legitimate
ST4 said:
Pleasure, self defence, culture. In this era of civil unrest and crime, guns are great. Many enjoy them. Many like owning dangerous powerful dogs, they serve no purpose but people like to have them,
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You're welcome ;)
 
Mr Bump said:
what makes me more sad in cases like this is i imagine the two killed might have had nothing to do with the grudge in question.
just puppets in the minds eye of the killers plan to cause as much distress as possible.
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Apparently one of them had made an internal grievance against the shooter and the shooter had claimed racist behaviour from the other so he had a personal grudge against each.

In relation to the issue of gun laws not stopping gun deaths, they dont, but they certainly reduce them. The fact is that whatever happens in the US there are now so many guns of all types circulating that obtaining enough automatic weapons to arm a group of terrorists and to move those weapons around to where they will be used, is far easier in a Country awash with firearms than in a Country where they are relatively uncommon.

Sadly the percieved need to have a firearm to protect oneself from firearms incidents just doesnt work.
 
dejongj said:
Do you really belief that would have stopped it? Heck only last week a bloke got on a train in Belgium with an AK47, did the gun laws stop that?
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There's a difference between ordinary citizens and a potential terrorist
 
Mr Bump said:
that countries just nuts, so sad
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Why? Yes, they have a lot of guns and to many of us that is weird, but for them its normal.

I guess because its the US it is reported but a quick wiki check on gun deaths shows that many countries are far worse. Most are central and south american (like Honduras, Columbia, Brazil, Jamaica) but also Sth Africa too. And its a big country!! 3.55 deaths per 100k people, some way below the 64 in Honduras and 17 of Sth Africa but well ahead of places closer to home.
 
Look, everyone and their dog owns a gun in America! They feel as though it is their God given right! It needs to be changed! It is so easy for anyone to carry a gun in the USA. They even take them into church with them!!
 
Being from the UK and not the USA, I dont feel the need to tell them that they need to change anything. Its an American problem and nothing at all to do with us. Only they can decide if the price of gun ownership is worth it and having seen the response to some really awful incidents its clear where their priorities lie.
 
ST4 said:
To me, and gun owning Americans plenty. However, I hope they keep their laws. If you don't like America and her ways do not visit or live in America.



Not you. But I'm not bothered. This thread will go down the same tired, sorry and weary road with the same protagonists pontificating pseudo leftist rubbish. Have fun.
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LOL! Not just a lefty, but a PSEUDO LEFTY!

AAAARGH RUN AWAY...... :runaway:

FFS
 
Raincloud said:
Look, everyone and their dog owns a gun in America! They feel as though it is their God given right! It needs to be changed! It is so easy for anyone to carry a gun in the USA. They even take them into church with them!!
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Fair enough if that is how you feel, but would that have changed this event? Or apply it to Europe would that have prevented the chap on the train with his AK47? Does it actually prevent the big massacres? I mean if you really want to it is not hard to get any in the UK either.

I'm quite agnostic to it, I'm not a big fan of banning anything for anyone in general. I mean knives are not legal in the UK, yet sadly many carry one and plenty have been killed. During 2014 we had 26,000 of such crimes. Last time I looked it is illegal to carry one around. And we had 4,860 firearm offences, they are also illegal. BTW A significant decrease since 2003/04 as there were 10,338, and in 2008/09 8,199. But still for a small country like the UK, comparable to a single state in the USA, those are significant numbers for something that isn't legal. Source ONS.
 
But the illegal firearms are manufactured and come from somewhere. Just who are they made for? Not for the UK. Some for the US. Some for Russia. It's the same for the US states where guns are illegal. Yet they still have gun deaths due to the availability. Thanks to their gun totin neighbour states.

Guns are very robust and can still be fixed up to kill after 50 years, or being buried or fished out of a river. Yet they still manufacture them in large numbers for the retail market. It's time to start doing something about it. Or the slaughter will continue.
 
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ianp5a said:
But the illegal firearms are manufactured and come from somewhere. Just who are they made for? Not for the UK.
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Does that really matter? There are factories all around the world. Does it really change anything? Heck with 3D printers so cheap you can print your own ;)
 
If you look beyond the present yes.
People know what has to be done. So change must begin now.
 
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ianp5a said:
If you look beyond the present yes.
People know what has to be done. So change must begin now.
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Sorry but I have no idea what you mean. Can you be specific?
 
Raincloud said:
Look, everyone and their dog owns a gun in America! They feel as though it is their God given right! It needs to be changed! It is so easy for anyone to carry a gun in the USA. They even take them into church with them!!
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Actually, apparently gun ownership runs around the 30% mark.

Dunno about their dogs though.
 
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Yes
dejongj said:
Sorry but I have no idea what you mean. Can you be specific?
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In brief, start working on de-glamourising guns. Erode the US addiction to guns. Increase the number of states that accept tighter gun laws. Reducing the market for them and thus reducing the numbers manufactured. Thus reducing availability. Thus reducing the need for defensive guns. A lot of smart people in the US welcome this.
You might throw your hands in the air and say nothing can be done. But you should look at the long term picture. Today's situation is all just symptoms of the past. There is plenty that can and is being done. It will take a while. Which is why they have to make a start. It's better than doing nothing, and thus perpetuating the slaughter forever.
 
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simon ess said:
Is that for legally bought, known about guns, or an estimate of the total?
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Legally.
All anyone can do about illegally is guess.
Very little point in that really.
 
Apparently 88.8 guns per 100 population (over 300,000,000 in circulation) for comparison the UK has 6.6 per 100 population (2,000,000 in circulation)

These figures are just the legally held firearms.
 
cambsno said:
I guess because its the US it is reported but a quick wiki check on gun deaths shows that many countries are far worse. Most are central and south american (like Honduras, Columbia, Brazil, Jamaica) but also Sth Africa too. And its a big country!! 3.55 deaths per 100k people, some way below the 64 in Honduras and 17 of Sth Africa but well ahead of places closer to home.
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you'll notice that every country ahead of the US on that list is a developing one
 
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Simplythebeast said:
Apparently 88.8 guns per 100 population (over 300,000,000 in circulation) for comparison the UK has 6.6 per 100 population (2,000,000 in circulation)

These figures are just the legally held firearms.
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That doesn't mean 88 people out of 100 have a gun though.

I'm talking about the percentage of people who legally own a gun, not the number of guns, ...just as a counter to your "everyone and their dog" claim. :)

Edit. ...Raincloud's claim.
Apologies :-)
 
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Who
viv1969 said:
That doesn't mean 88 people out of 100 have a gun though.

I'm talking about the percentage of people who legally own a gun, not the number of guns, ...just as a counter to your "everyone and their dog" claim. :)

Edit. ...Raincloud's claim.
Apologies :)
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Nobody has suggested that 88.8 per 100 owns guns. Though a large proportion of those that do probably shouldnt be trusted with a stick let alone a gun.
 
ianp5a said:
Yes
In brief, start working on de-glamourising guns. Erode the US addiction to guns. Increase the number of states that accept tighter gun laws. Reducing the market for them and thus reducing the numbers manufactured. Thus reducing availability. Thus reducing the need for defensive guns. A lot of smart people in the US welcome this.
You might throw your hands in the air and say nothing can be done. But you should look at the long term picture. Today's situation is all just symptoms of the past. There is plenty that can and is being done. It will take a while. Which is why they have to make a start. It's better than doing nothing, and thus perpetuating the slaughter forever.
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I'm not saying that nothing can get done, heck you could make it illegal at the next reading when you get the representatives supporting. What I am questioning is whether it actually makes a difference. I mean take this scenario, if guns were illegal would that have prevented this from happening? Would it have prevented what happened last week on the train? Would it have stopped the 26,000 knife crimes last year in the UK?

I don't think that removing the tools is going to stop people, either it makes it a tiny bit harder to find an illegal version, or they'll use a different weapon in my opinion.
 
Simplythebeast said:
Who

Nobody has suggested that 88.8 per 100 owns guns. Though a large proportion of those that do probably shouldnt be trusted with a stick let alone a gun.
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But the important statistic is how many actually resort to committing a crime?
 
viv1969 said:
The "radical" minority I suspect ;)
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Unfortunately the way the fbi collects their stats it is not that straight forward to make a direct comparison. But at a quick glance the level of violent crime which includes firearms and knifes etc on a state level really not so different as the UK.

As I said I am agnostic about it, I just would like to see that when there is a government intervention is request it is done for a real purpose and not just because some people don't like it. To me that would be a dangerous road to go down as tomorrow the people could find something else intolerable.
 
dejongj said:
As I said I am agnostic about it
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As am I. It's up to them how their society functions.

However I think you're being a little disingenuous about the influence upon American society, culture and social interaction of widespread gun ownership.
 
simon ess said:
As am I. It's up to them how their society functions.

However I think you're being a little disingenuous about the influence upon American society, culture and social interaction of widespread gun ownership.
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Why disingenuous? Do you thing this wouldn't have happened if gun ownership was illegal in that state? I doubt it, I think this guy was sufficiently premeditated to do something regardless. Naturally I recognise that we would never know.

Likewise the answer, for me, is not more guns. That is just treating the symptoms, in many ways fairly similar to corbyns exploration of women only carriages. It is not tackling the issue where people just do not seem to value human life. To me that is no different than the extensive knife culture in the UK. And yes knifes aren't legal to carry either.

Personally I think the legalisation or not of guns is not the required discussion. It is people doing these killings with anything they've got.
 
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