neil_g
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more relevant than the speeding posts earlier
and help to keep the site free for all
Angry White and Thick
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Therein lies the problem- I believe that that statement can be used to validate a lot of racist thoughts (not that I am arguing that is what you are doing, I am not) and similarly those on the other side of the argument see all their arguments as being dismissed as 'racist'.
But when people
- post statements that I believe are clearly incorrect (such as making allegations that muslims are not standing up),
- or arguments that I would like to see evidence of (such as no-go areas) - and no evidence is forthcoming,
- or use of clearly racist language (talk of 'Arian' race, 'your own people', talking of torpedoing ships of immigrants, linking immigrants to disease)
- or alarmist unproven rhetoric 'In a generation or two it won't matter what non muslims want, we will be out voted by the masses'
If some posters here wish to discuss things and be taken seriously (i am not including you in this group, Laudrup), do not post such things and then claim I am being overly dismissive of your views and pre-judging them as racist.
But those who make reasonable arguments (such as the post I am responding to), then discussion can only be a good thing.
Finally, I see the anger and hatred being stirred up by the likes of the EDL and the people linked to on youtube as being a far greater problem to our future cohesion than the radical Muslims. At the moment we have a very small minority that is a problem, if you continue to demonise Muslims as a single homogenous entity and accuse them of being murderous paedophiles that will only cause a much larger percentage to radicalise.
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theres also the point that the fault in people who arent racists being branded as such for asking reasonable questions lies partly with those who are racists and who created the stereotype through their racist actions.
thus
" we are investigating a paedophile ring within the pakistani community in x city " - not racist
" its not a sprise all muslims are kiddy fiddlers and want sending back where they came from, get this muderous filth off our streets" - racist as hell
When we talk about the actions of that paedophile c*** in plymouth on the other thread , we don't generalise from there that because he's white british it follows that all white british people are paedophiles , but when we discuss the sex abuse in rotheram there are those who feel the religion or ethnicity of the perpetrators is the most important factor - rather than them being paedophile scum who want a bullet in the face.
The other irony is that t*** in plymouth who raped a 6 month old baby got 14 years under our justice system - under sharia law he'd be lucky to escape execution or castration (or indeed execution by castration)
thus
" we are investigating a paedophile ring within the pakistani community in x city " - not racist
" its not a sprise all muslims are kiddy fiddlers and want sending back where they came from, get this muderous filth off our streets" - racist as hell
When we talk about the actions of that paedophile c*** in plymouth on the other thread , we don't generalise from there that because he's white british it follows that all white british people are paedophiles , but when we discuss the sex abuse in rotheram there are those who feel the religion or ethnicity of the perpetrators is the most important factor - rather than them being paedophile scum who want a bullet in the face.
The other irony is that t*** in plymouth who raped a 6 month old baby got 14 years under our justice system - under sharia law he'd be lucky to escape execution or castration (or indeed execution by castration)
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How is torpedeoing ships with illegal people in them racist or linking people coming in from certain countries where healthcare is questionable and diseases more common (west africa and Ebola) with diseases racist?
boyfalldown
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its the way its done
saying that health care is questionable in some west african countries isnt racist - saying "all these imigrants will spread disease because they are from backward countries" is (its also ignorant as it shows a collosal misunderstanding of how the diseases spread - its also noticeable that all the suspected ebola cases in britain (and there were only 3) we all british people returning frm WA not imigrants)
new2me
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but that's okay, as he isn't calling anyone names ... sticks and stone may break your bones, but wishing ship loads of people to sink never hurt anyone.
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Quite but when these people are illegally trying to enter your country proactive action needs to be taken to ensure they do not get there. It would also deter others.
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which i'm fine with so long as its proportionate and reasonable - by all means arrest them at the point of entry and return them , and if they've come via france tell the frenchthat they are their problm not ours. But killing people who are only seeking a better life is not a proportionate action - its more the sort of thing a facist state would do
You have self-appointed 'community leaders' speaking up on the TV after the fact yes, but I am finding people increasingly sceptical about these perceived hollow words, especially the more they learn about Islam (which isn't a race). The Panorama show that goes undercover in Sharia councils in the UK you see a woman being discouraged from contacting the police on a violent partner by these religious figures who even have their own TV shows doling out advice.
There is this uncomfortable sense of a hidden cultural manipulation of their own people in some of these communities to keep things taboo and the inconvenient truth hidden in cases involving the wider community where barriers are thrown up by 'councillors' or 'community liaisons' which creates this Us vs Them scenario. When the next scandal happens and the next leader comes out and tells us they had no idea what was happening under their nose it gets more and more difficult to believe given how insular these communities are perceived to be. We also give these community spokespeople more power and respect than they necessarily deserve.
No-go zones is a loaded term, but where you have a high density of minority communities, for example Muslims in these Midland towns and cities, then as that video above has shown people don't feel safe in that area there if the police don't act on their complaints due to them perceiving the police as afraid of being labeled racist. In Rotherham the Asian youths involved thought the police were too afraid to arrest them for fear of being branded racist. Then you have the issue raised by the chief inspector of constabulary, Tom Winsor, who said some communities ("I am reluctant to name") had turned their back on police and would prefer to sort things out their way. It may not be the strict definition of a no-go zone for non-Muslims like say Mecca, but I'd listen to these people in the communities and not ignore it.
I'm not into the whole racial superiority, Aryan master race or torpedoing boats of immigrants, those are racist and crude arguments. A better controlled method of immigration would be good, but not possible if we are in the EU. The projected figures would have the Muslim population of the UK roughly at 10% by 2050, or not enough even if they wanted to rule the UK which is doubtful. Population projection and statistics can vary wildly though, and the 'Muslim demographics' video is widely discredited so the people who are most alarmed are probably quite easily alarmed and fooled anyway.
The violent far-right groups in the UK will always need to be watched carefully, but I don't put them in the same league as radical Islamists willing to blow themselves and others up for Allah or wanting to plant bombs outside a nightclub to kill people or drive into airports on suicide missions. I don't think you have to be a hate filled EDL member or Islamic terrorist to be hindering social cohesion though. Importing customs like the full face veil is not what I would consider conducive to social cohesion here or other backwards customs from tribal areas of Pakistan and you would probably brand them 'moderate Muslims' or 'normal Muslims' because they weren't advocating jihad. Not learning the language or integrating is again something that disrupts communities, yet again raising these issues would be seen as 'racist' or this new stupid word to try and silence dissenters, 'Islamaphobic'. I won't pretend to speak for Steve, but to me some of his arguments stem from ideas not a million miles away from a lot of concerned people.
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I disagree entirely and its to create a real deterrent to those coming in illegally. Sending them back without punishment would mean they would just try again.
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how many brits who live abroad speak their host nations tongue fluently , come to that how many integrate fully with their host country rather than living in ex pat encaves ? ... i know some do (especially in western countries) but if you go to somewhere like say abu dhabi you'll find most of the brits and other westerners living in a non integrated enclave and only speaking a handful of words of arabic between them , and still clinging to british customs and past times.
on your other point yes islam isn't a race - but when most far right wingers say mulsim they are thinking of either an arab or a brown skinned british citizen from the pakistani / bangladeshi community. Thats why they tend to say things like "theres loads of em here when you drive through luton/bradford/leeds/glasgow whatever you can see them everywhere." - when in fact you can't see whats inside someones head at all - what they are seeing is brown skin and cultural dress , which could just as easkily denote other cultures and religions.
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indeed which is why I said earlier that your postings were extreme right wing and edging close to nazi in tone - meeting someone who just wants a better life with machine gun fire and torpedos is no part of the british culture. In essence it is little different to putting social undesirables in camps and gassing them or working them to death, ie its something that the third reich or various other fascist lunatics might have done.
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Especially as the ship is likely to be owned by a British or French ferry company.
And it would be seen as an act of agression and could lead to war!
Steve.
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I suppose we could claim it was an 'invasion force' but i think that would require us to be at war with the country of origin first ...
course if we were to reinvent ourself as a 1984 style fascist state run by rightwing nutters we could do what we liked, and lock up anyone who disagreed with it - personally i'm of the opinion that the thought police were double plus ungood , but it seems that some may see it as the template for the future
new2me
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Yeah, that's what I was wondering, so would assume that it would be blocked and thoroughly inspected first and found to be harmless.
On this whole Islam being a race, Richard Dawkins put it:
"If Islam is a race, then socialism is a race, birdwatching is a race, femaleness is a race."
The Rotherham case was a perfect example of people in power ignoring politically inconvenient truths which left rapists to do as they please to 1400 kids. Child sex exploitation is bad enough, but to create this climate of fear and nervousness about speaking out because of the race of the criminals is unforgivable.
They can try and blame any excuse they like about a racist viewpoint in the past by someone else meant they couldn't bring up the race of the perpetrators, it changes nothing. Anyone that used that flimsy excuse cannot be trusted in a position of power in case it happened again.
viv1969
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No no....apparently anyone on board who had so much as caught a glimps of Dover would be summarily exicuted, and their remaining kin invoiced for the ammunition.
Yeah... I think that's about how Steve plans it
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The flaw in that plan is of course,
I suspect that the whole extended family would be on the boat,
therefore there is no chance of re-cooping the ammo costs
viv1969
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The flaw in that plan is of course,
I suspect that the whole extended family would be on the boat,
therefore there is no chance of re-cooping the ammo costs
Then clearly we must rifle through the pockets of the corpses and recover what we can! They must be taxed in some way for their audacity.
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Unfortunately, I suspect that their pockets would be empty,Then clearly we must rifle through the pockets of the corpses and recover what we can! They must be taxed in some way for their audacity.
until they have arrived at the "UK Money shop"
Seems its a catch 22
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Then clearly we must rifle through the pockets of the corpses and recover what we can! They must be taxed in some way for their audacity.
Exactly. You've nailed it.
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Unfortunately, I suspect that their pockets would be empty,
until they have arrived at the "UK Money shop"
Seems its a catch 22
Charge the bill to the Greeks?
Byker28i
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Quite a bit trying to make a point that all religions have their issues...
Byker28i
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An interesting report: www.london.gov.uk/mayor/economic_unit/docs/irregular-migrants-summary.pdf
let's not forget that Tony B Liar said: “The answer to the white, working class, unemployed youth in alienated communities in Britain, is not to tell them their problems would be solved if there were fewer Polish people working in the UK; it is to provide them with the education and the skills and the connectivity that gives them the ability to face the world’s challenges and overcome them. Anything else is worse than a delusion…”
Anyone catch the radio 4 interview the other morning? Two white youths saying they didn't want those immigrants coming over here, taking our jobs, and in the next breath saying they were all benefit scroungers...
You might also like to read this summary and the associated reports on immigration and jobs
http://www.migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/commentary/migrant-workers-taking-our-jobs-or-not
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indeed - but as i said above when a far right winger says british muslim they are really thinking "paki" but couching it in slighly more aceptable terms - they arent thinking of the white bosnian muslims , aryan iranians, or indeed western anglo saxon converts. The predjudice isnt really about religion at all , I doubt the average EDL member has even read the quran or could tell you cogently what islam is about , its about skin colour and not wanting those "furriners in our country taking our jobs and no doubt sleepin with our daughters"
Indeed - but no such climate exists, the perpetrators should have been dealt with - here i agree with steve that a bullet in the face is the perfect solution, not because of their religion, creed, or colour but because they are dirty noncing bastards. That those in power in rotheram were too cowardly to do their jobs is unacceptable but its got b****r all to do with islam - you could just as easily point to children abused by catholic preists or by celebrities , where again the authorities should have acted and didnt.
but why would they want to bring up the race/religion of the perpetrators anyway ? they arent paedophiles because they are muslims or becaause they are brown skinned. A dirty noncing b*****d is a dirty noncing bastad regardless
Byker28i
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Only if it's sailing in and out of an exclusion zone and may prove a threat? And called belgrano?
new2me
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I tried to do a quick search for my answer and the belgrano kept coming up, but I don't want to dip into those waters
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Then clearly we must rifle through the pockets of the corpses and recover what we can! They must be taxed in some way for their audacity.
we could sell their bodies to medical science - i'm sure if we tried hard enough we could find a far right american research lab which would use them to demonstrate that imigrants are actually sub human (like the one that did the analysis of black head shapes in the 60s)
or we could make them into fertiliser and soap like the nazi's did at aucshwitz and recoup the cost that way
(we need an irony smiley so that steve doesnt actually conclude we agree with him)
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to be fair that was a military asset of a goverment we were having a conflict with - Ive never understood the hoo ha about belgrano , 'atlantic conveyor' was a merchant ship with the task force and had not yet reached the excusion zone but that didnt stop the argentine airforce from hitting it with three exocets.. if you go to war s*** happens
steves suggestion is more in the vien of Otto Priem , though its not clear if Steve also favours machine gunning the lifeboats afterwards
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, though its not clear if Steve also favours machine gunning the lifeboats afterwards
After all this time....I've really not made a big enough impression here.
Byker28i
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Then clearly we must rifle through the pockets of the corpses and recover what we can! They must be taxed in some way for their audacity.
Anyone watch the Auchwitz programme on Sunday night, with the survivor telling her story? Hair shaved to be sold, all clothes recycled and any valuables found sold also. After being gassed they even dissected the bodies to check valuables hadn't been hidden in orifices or swallowed.
Quite depressing what some of the population thinks is acceptable
Byker28i
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I was serving then, working extra hours unloading the wounded being flown back to the uk. Seemed fine to me as it was a threat in the area.I tried to do a quick search for my answer and the belgrano kept coming up, but I don't want to dip into those waters
viv1969
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Horrible....also that it wasn't by far the only one, and by some people's accounts, wasn't the worst either.
I think it is realistic to want people coming here to assimilate into British society firstly by learning the language and respecting the culture and laws. Not knowing the language is a big stumbling block for any social cohesion especially if you are going to remain there for your whole life and have a family there etc. There is a perception of an unwillingness to even try that is frustrating. Brits living in western Europe if they were to live there the rest of their life they'd integrate better learning the language and the laws and customs which they probably be broadly well versed in. You could probably find a lot of bilingual people who could converse in English, but it would be a lot harder if you only spoke Urdu.
The majority of Muslims here are of the Pakistani/Bangladeshi/Indian ethnicity so it would make sense that they are the people the EDL come into contact with the most, but would the EDL give Muslims like Samantha Lewthwaite or Jordan Horner an easier time because of the colour of their skin? The taqiyah or niqab or headscarf can make them standout, but I don't really know what the EDL are thinking, if it is a racial stereotype or a stereotype against Muslims or both. The EDL do have a Sikh division so I'd assume some involved in it must know the difference between religious and cultural dresses, although I wouldn't put much money on it.
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I liked this, not because I agree with all the views, but I like the reasoned discussion.
boyfalldown
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I can't really agree about the percieved hollow words. Especially as there seems to be more and more pressure to speak out. An action I don't think needed anyway. As a christian I feel no need to apologise for the less pleasent acts (from Westboro Bapsist Church to child abusing priests) christianity has carried out in recent times. Why should a muslim do the same?
I do get what you mean about a hidden manipulation. At the start of the year I attended an Islamic funeral. Its the one and only time I've been to a mosque in any way other then a tourist. I was quite nervous about the whole thing, but to be fair both my family and the body were treated with far more dignity and respect then I've ever been treated with at a crematorium. Now that said I can see how you could, if you wished manipulate ,particularly vunerable young men, in that environment
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