Angry White and Thick

[big soft moose]

After all this time....I've really not made a big enough impression here.

in fact - why wait for them to try to imigrate , we know where all these 'dirty imigrants' come from so lets use trident to make a proactive nuclear strike and cure the problem at source . We wouldnt have to do them all we could just pick one country and make an example pour le encourage' les autres.

 

[Laudrup]

indeed - but as i said above when a far right winger says british muslim they are really thinking "paki" but couching it in slighly more aceptable terms - they arent thinking of the white bosnian muslims , aryan iranians, or indeed western anglo saxon converts. The predjudice isnt really about religion at all , I doubt the average EDL member has even read the quran or could tell you cogently what islam is about , its about skin colour and not wanting those "furriners in our country taking our jobs and no doubt sleepin with our daughters"

When they were outside that mosque in London I got the impression it was a free-for-all on hurling abuse, the skin colour didn't appear to be concerning. If there were 20 white Bosnian Muslims at Anjem Choudary's street preaching I think the noise levels would have been the same.

Indeed - but no such climate exists, the perpetrators should have been dealt with - here i agree with steve that a bullet in the face is the perfect solution, not because of their religion, creed, or colour but because they are dirty noncing bastards. That those in power in rotheram were too cowardly to do their jobs is unacceptable but its got b****r all to do with islam - you could just as easily point to children abused by catholic preists or by celebrities , where again the authorities should have acted and didnt.

The climate of fear of being labeled racist existed then in that area to the detriment of young people and this 'Islamophobia' term looks like a clumsy attempt to shoehorn in another get out clause to close down discussion.

but why would they want to bring up the race/religion of the perpetrators anyway ? they arent paedophiles because they are muslims or becaause they are brown skinned. A dirty noncing b*****d is a dirty noncing bastad regardless

Well it is important if you have organised criminal gangs exploiting these kids for money or gratification and you're downplaying the ethnic dimensions of the child sex exploitation and adopting an approach of avoiding public discussion of it for fear of being branded racist. Especially when your main points of contact in the Pakistani-heritage community were imams or other community leaders. No wonder the people involved thought they could act with impunity as they had the race card at their disposal ready to be played.

 

[big soft moose]

The climate of fear of being labeled racist existed then in that area to the detriment of young people

nah the climate of fear is being made up in retrospect to justify gross bureaucratic incompetence.

Well it is important if you have organised criminal gangs exploiting these kids for money or gratification and you're downplaying the ethnic dimensions of the child sex exploitation and adopting an approach of avoiding public discussion of it for fear of being branded racist. .

not really - given that criminal gangs who engage in trafficking do iso accross the racial spectrum , and theres no need to have any kind of public discussion because what you should be doing is investigating the traffickers and arresting them regardless of their creed, colour, religion etc.

as i said earlier saying " we are investigating a child abuse/trafficking ring predominantly within the pakistani community in rotheram" is not in anyway racist - especially as the majority of that community will find child trafficking as abhorent as you or i do. However saying as many right wingers tend to that " the muslims in rotheram are all kiddy fidlers anyway" or " all those pakis are dirty bastards who marry children" is implicitly racist because they are generalising about a whole ethnic group based on the actions of a minority within it , in a way they don't about the white british ethnic group

 

[Laudrup]

I can't really agree about the percieved hollow words. Especially as there seems to be more and more pressure to speak out. An action I don't think needed anyway. As a christian I feel no need to apologise for the less pleasent acts (from Westboro Bapsist Church to child abusing priests) christianity has carried out in recent times. Why should a muslim do the same?

I do get what you mean about a hidden manipulation. At the start of the year I attended an Islamic funeral. Its the one and only time I've been to a mosque in any way other then a tourist. I was quite nervous about the whole thing, but to be fair both my family and the body were treated with far more dignity and respect then I've ever been treated with at a crematorium. Now that said I can see how you could, if you wished manipulate ,particularly vunerable young men, in that environment

On the contrary the more who speak out in openness the better for us all. Even last year Barack Obama said at the United Nations General Assembly:

“It is time for the world – especially Muslim communities – to explicitly, forcefully, and consistently reject the ideology of al-Qaeda and ISIL”.

The current Pope has apologised for child abuse and Pope John Paul II apologised for 2000 years of violence and mistakes. Over 100 things ranging from the trial of Galileo to the role of the church in burning people at the stake.

The problem with these cultural taboos and their manipulation is a poor abused girl in some of these more insular Muslim communities can be dissuaded from going to the police because she will be ostracised from her family and community or see her prospects of marriage vanish.

 

[big soft moose]

The problem with these cultural taboos and their manipulation is a poor abused girl in some of these more insular Muslim communities can be dissuaded from going to the police because she will be ostracised from her family and community or see her prospects of marriage vanish.

yes because muslim communities are the only ones that ever happens in - no one is ever persuaded to keep rape or abuse secret by any other religion or ethnic group

this is what I mean about racism , that kind of manipulation can happen in many communities including hindu, fundamentalist christian, jewish, amish (christian again), and even some secular communities - but for some reason you've singled out one religion to criticise and generalise about as if they are the only one where it ever happens

 

[Laudrup]

nah the climate of fear is being made up in retrospect to justify gross bureaucratic incompetence.

They weren't downplaying it because of bureaucracy. Denial and fear of community cohesion being damaged if the truth came out.

not really - given that criminal gangs who engage in trafficking do iso accross the racial spectrum , and theres no need to have any kind of public discussion because what you should be doing is investigating the traffickers and arresting them regardless of their creed, colour, religion etc.

as i said earlier saying " we are investigating a child abuse/trafficking ring predominantly within the pakistani community in rotheram" is not in anyway racist - especially as the majority of that community will find child trafficking as abhorent as you or i do. However saying as many right wingers tend to that " the muslims in rotheram are all kiddy fidlers anyway" or " all those pakis are dirty bastards who marry children" is implicitly racist because they are generalising about a whole ethnic group based on the actions of a minority within it , in a way they don't about the white british ethnic group

How can you investigate the problem thoroughly and discover patterns if you are tiptoeing around the race of the perpetrators in case you offend? How can you find out what is happening in a community if the person that is supposed to communicate and facilitate information is a barrier? How can you find out about child sex exploitation in a community when you barely even raise the issue? In 2006 a report was made saying that one of the difficulties of dealing with the exploitation was the ethnicity of the main offenders.

 

[Laudrup]

yes because muslim communities are the only ones that ever happens in - no one is ever persuaded to keep rape or abuse secret by any other religion or ethnic group

this is what I mean about racism , that kind of manipulation can happen in many communities including hindu, fundamentalist christian, jewish, amish (christian again), and even some secular communities - but for some reason you've singled out one religion to criticise and generalise about as if they are the only one where it ever happens

Well given we are talking about the Rotherham sex abuse scandal then it is pertinent. You can get into a cycle of whataboutery, but it doesn't alter anything.

 

[big soft moose]

They weren't downplaying it because of bureaucracy. Denial and fear of community cohesion being damaged if the truth came out.

thats the excuse - i still say the real reason was because they f***ed up and don't want to admit it. Its been documented before (in the baby P case i think) that social workers caseloads are so high that they have maybe 5 minutes per case ... thats the reason these things get lost in the shuffle , but its easier and more expedient to make excuses and cover their arse than to admit it.

How can you investigate the problem thoroughly and discover patterns if you are tiptoeing around the race of the perpetrators in case you offend? .

you don't tiptoe arround the race - you just ignore it because its not relevant. The cops investigating that t*** rooney didnt think 'oh well we must be sensitive to his white britishness in case we offend him' they just investigated him being a dirty noncing b*****d

the rotheram perps werent criminals because of their ethnicity /religion , they were doing it because they were either sexual deviants , or money oriantated sociopaths , so you focus on whats important and ignore the colour of their skin and indeed any other irrelevant factor

Course if the community won't talk to the authorities thats a problem - but its not a problem being caused by being over PC - instead its caused by previous encounters with racist arseholes

 

[big soft moose]

Well given we are talking about the Rotherham sex abuse scandal then it is pertinent. You can get into a cycle of whataboutery, but it doesn't alter anything.

truue to a point but the thread had also mentioned catholic abuses - do you think that kids who are abused by preists don't come under societal pressure too ?

 

[Laudrup]

thats the excuse - i still say the real reason was because they f***ed up and don't want to admit it. Its been documented before (in the baby P case i think) that social workers caseloads are so high that they have maybe 5 minutes per case ... thats the reason these things get lost in the shuffle , but its easier and more expedient to make excuses and cover their arse than to admit it.

It was a failure to tackle the issue of race head on among other things. Denying it or downplaying it is exactly what happened in this case.

you don't tiptoe arround the race - you just ignore it because its not relevant. The cops investigating that t*** rooney didnt think 'oh well we must be sensitive to his white britishness in case we offend him' they just investigated him being a dirty noncing b*****d

the rotheram perps werent criminals because of their ethnicity /religion , they were doing it because they were either sexual deviants , or money oriantated sociopaths , so you focus on whats important and ignore the colour of their skin and indeed any other irrelevant factor

Course if the community won't talk to the authorities thats a problem - but its not a problem being caused by being over PC - instead its caused by previous encounters with racist arseholes

How can you ignore these patterns when investigating it? How can you barely ask the community leaders about it when you are investigating it? The convictions in 2010 of 5 Asian men in Rotherham were downplayed as "one-off, isolated case". That was quite obviously not the case.

The defence and logic of 'we won't talk about child sexual exploitation because of a racist a******e we met in the past' is very poor.

 

[viv1969]

truue to a point but the thread had also mentioned catholic abuses - do you think that kids who are abused by preists don't come under societal pressure too ?

And don't rule out nuns.

 

[big soft moose]

It was a failure to tackle the issue of race head on among other things. Denying it or downplaying it is exactly what happened in this case.

there is no issue of race to tackle in this case - you seem to think you only get dirty noncing bastards in one community - there no need to deny or down play it, you just focus on locking up the criminals regardless of their colour/religion etc

How can you ignore these patterns when investigating it? How can you barely ask the community leaders about it when you are investigating it?

you ask the community leaders about dirty noncing bastards - theres no need to mention race because its an irrelevance except in so much as describing an individual suspect, what you don't do is generalise about race while investigating it because thats not helpful

The convictions in 2010 of 5 Asian men in Rotherham were downplayed as "one-off, isolated case". That was quite obviously not the case.

were those 5 connected to the 14 more recently convicted ? and also how many non asian paedophiles have been arrested since 2010 ? Were any of those cases connected to the 2014 cases and so forth

your logic seems to be that because some asians were arrested in 2010 and again in 2014 , the whole asian community must be complicit

This is about like saying , Ian Huntley is white , Roy Whitting is white , Rooney is white... holy s*** don't you see the connection all white british men are paedophiles

The defence and logic of 'we won't talk about child sexual exploitation because of a racist a******e we met in the past' is very poor.

it woulkd be if it was true - but what you actually get is "we won't talk to the police about paedophiles because they are racists anyway and they won't care ( I'm not repreat not saying all the police are racists - i'm talking about the perception some ethnic communities may have from one or two bad apples), you get the baseball bat i'll call the boys from the mosque and we can handle this ourselves "

 

[Laudrup]

truue to a point but the thread had also mentioned catholic abuses - do you think that kids who are abused by preists don't come under societal pressure too ?

If it was to the extent of being ostracised from their family and community I think it would be rare for a Catholic. Manipulating cultural norms wouldn't be the same as living in an insular community that you had known your whole life and would be practically giving up if you told the police.

 

[Laudrup]

there is no issue of race to tackle in this case - you seem to think you only get dirty noncing bastards in one community - there no need to deny or down play it, you just focus on locking up the criminals regardless of their colour/religion etc

How can you investigate this properly when information is being suppressed for fear of being thought as racist and a denial of the problem?

you ask the community leaders about dirty noncing bastards - theres no need to mention race because its an irrelevance except in so much as describing an individual suspect, what you don't do is generalise about race while investigating it because thats not helpful

They barely asked them. So how do you find out about the problem if you barely ask about the problem from the community they come from? The criminals aren't going to wander up and tell you.

were those 5 connected to the 14 more recently convicted ? and also how many non asian paedophiles have been arrested since 2010 ? Were any of those cases connected to the 2014 cases and so forth

your logic seems to be that because some asians were arrested in 2010 and again in 2014 , the whole asian community must be complicit

This is about like saying , Ian Huntley is white , Roy Whitting is white , Rooney is white... holy s*** don't you see the connection all white british men are paedophiles

Jahangir Akhtar was the deputy leader of Rotherham Council and he stepped down over claims he knew about a relationship between a girl in care and a suspected child abuser. The Times said he was related to him. It was reported that a senior officer implied he was a barrier to communication and the 2010 case was supposedly not an example of a more deep-rooted problem of Pakistani-heritage perpetrators targeting young white girls. Turns out it was exactly that.

it woulkd be if it was true - but what you actually get is "we won't talk to the police about paedophiles because they are racists anyway and they won't care ( I'm not repreat not saying all the police are racists - i'm talking about the perception some ethnic communities may have from one or two bad apples), you get the baseball bat i'll call the boys from the mosque and we can handle this ourselves "

I don't think it is anything to do with that. They are exercising control over their community through religion and trying to ignore and hide their problems. Is that socially cohesive?

 

[big soft moose]

How can you investigate this properly when information is being suppressed for fear of being thought as racist and a denial of the problem?

the same way you investigate any other crime - they obviously did in the end given that the 14 perps got locked up

They barely asked them. So how do you find out about the problem if you barely ask about the problem from the community they come from? The criminals aren't going to wander up and tell you.

how did they find out about the problem in the end ? - thats how

2010 case was supposedly not an example of a more deep-rooted problem of Pakistani-heritage perpetrators targeting young white girls. Turns out it was exactly that.
?

Does it ? really ? - I'm not aware of any deep rooted problem with pakistanis targetting young white girls - just another case of some dirty noncing bastards getting locked up. Deeply rooted would imply 100s if not 1000s rather than 14 (or 19 if you include the 5 in 2010).

Does the rooney case indicate a deeply rooted problem with white men targetting young white boys ?

I essence you've just written the racists favorite stereotype -some muggers are black therefore all blacks are muggers ... or in this case a few paedophiles are pakistani so all pakistanis are paedophiles .

 

[big soft moose]

According to the NSPCC there are about 23,000 sexual offences against children in an average year, and the largest single demographic of perpetrators is middle class , white men acting within their family or close freinds and neighbours.

so statistically speaking theres a higher chance that you could be a paedophile than a given asian man in rotheram ! ( For the hard of thinking i'm not saying that he is, I'm saying that if you base your suspicions on sterotype and statistics this is what you end up with)

 

[big soft moose]

If it was to the extent of being ostracised from their family and community I think it would be rare for a Catholic. Manipulating cultural norms wouldn't be the same as living in an insular community that you had known your whole life and would be practically giving up if you told the police.

really ? - you don't think that maybe someone living on say the falls road, belfast might come under societal presure not to speak to the authorities about father seamus ? .... I'd say in that case you are either very blinkered or very naive

 

[Laudrup]

the same way you investigate any other crime - they obviously did in the end given that the 14 perps got locked up

You are trying to dismiss the racial element to this and I don't know why? It cannot be denied.

how did they find out about the problem in the end ? - thats how

They found out as they set up Operation Central. The Times investigated what it thought was a cover up of abuse figures.

Does it ? really ? - I'm not aware of any deep rooted problem with pakistanis targetting young white girls - just another case of some dirty noncing bastards getting locked up. Deeply rooted would imply 100s if not 1000s rather than 14 (or 19 if you include the 5 in 2010).

Does the rooney case indicate a deeply rooted problem with white men targetting young white boys ?

I essence you've just written the racists favorite stereotype -some muggers are black therefore all blacks are muggers ... or in this case a few paedophiles are pakistani so all pakistanis are paedophiles .

The Times published an investigation that a confidential 2010 police report had warned thousands of child sexual exploitation crimes were being committed in South Yorkshire each year by networks of Asian men. Decades of abuse known to the police and child protection went unpunished. A 13 year old found drunk with a gang of men was arrested for being drunk and disorderly.

So no, you're comparisons with Geoffrey Rooney aren't comparable. Your points about racists is also overreaching and irrelevant.

 

[Laudrup]

According to the NSPCC there are about 23,000 sexual offences against children in an average year, and the largest single demographic of perpetrators is middle class , white men acting within their family or close freinds and neighbours.

so statistically speaking theres a higher chance that you could be a paedophile than a given asian man in rotheram ! ( For the hard of thinking i'm not saying that he is, I'm saying that if you base your suspicions on sterotype and statistics this is what you end up with)

You cannot distort the facts to fit your argument. White, male, middle class family members were not convicted for this Rotherham abuse scandal. Asian sex gangs raped children as young as 11, doused them with petrol and threatened to set them alight, threatened them with guns, trafficked them to towns in England, beat and intimidated them plus many other disgusting crimes.

It seems the problems with white, middle class males in this instance was the powers that be wanting this swept under the carpet. The former chief constable of South Yorkshire Police has told MPs he "singularly failed" victims of child abuse in Rotherham. He got that right at least.

 

[simon ess]

I'm really struggling to understand what race or religion has the f*** to do with anything here.

Evil P**** bastards - end of.

Someone messed up.

These gangs were Asian, other gangs may be European or British or a mix of races.

They are all criminals to be dealt with.

 

[big soft moose]

You are trying to dismiss the racial element to this and I don't know why? It cannot be denied.
.

Because there isn't a racial element to this - yes a bunch of pakistanis have been convicted of paedophile offences, but they didn't become paedophiles because they are pakistanis or because they are muslims , and it doesnt follow that because a small number of pakistanis have been convicted that all or even most pakistanis are also paedophiles

What you refer to as "racial patterns" I would charecterise as racist predjudice - if a bunch of white men are convicted of sex crimes would you concliude that sex crimes are habitual in all white men ?

End of the day every last nonce associated with the rotheram case should be locked up and never see the light of day again - but regardless of their skin colour not because of it

 

[big soft moose]

You cannot distort the facts to fit your argument. White, male, middle class family members were not convicted for this Rotherham abuse scandal. Asian sex gangs raped children as young as 11, doused them with petrol and threatened to set them alight, threatened them with guns, trafficked them to towns in England, beat and intimidated them plus many other disgusting crimes.
.

What happened is rotheram was disgusting, repugnant and yes the perpetrators should be locked up (or for preference shot in the head) , however the fact remains that of the 23 thousand or so sexual offences against children each year in the uk the majority arent commited by asians - so if you draw the conclusion from Rotheram than paedophillia is broadly an asian issue, then it is you who is distorting the facts to fit your argument.

Paedophiles are found in all races and asians/muslims arent any more or less likely to commit these offences than anyone else. Arguing otherwise is just trying to put an acceptable face on the old racist slogan of "if they are black send them back, if they are brown send them down"

 

[Laudrup]

really ? - you don't think that maybe someone living on say the falls road, belfast might come under societal presure not to speak to the authorities about father seamus ? .... I'd say in that case you are either very blinkered or very naive

I think you overestimate the power of the Catholic church. There is a high profile Inquiry into Historical Institutional Abuse in Northern Ireland between 1922 and 1995. It is the biggest child abuse inquiry ever held in the UK, so I would think in the current climate social pressure is on Father Seamus, not the victim.

 

[simon ess]

Wonder why it's taken so long.

 

[big soft moose]

I think you overestimate the power of the Catholic church. There is a high profile Inquiry into Historical Institutional Abuse in Northern Ireland between 1922 and 1995. It is the biggest child abuse inquiry ever held in the UK, so I would think in the current climate social pressure is on Father Seamus, not the victim.

yes because the main power in the falls road cmmunity wasnt a terrorist organisation composed mainly of catholics - they didn't knee cap people for speaking to the authorities or anything like that .... :bang:

 

[big soft moose]

I'm really struggling to understand what race or religion has the f*** to do with anything here.

Evil P**** bastards - end of.

Someone messed up.

These gangs were Asian, other gangs may be European or British or a mix of races.

They are all criminals to be dealt with.

exactly

what we have here is a classic racist tactic - pick on a repulsive crime commited by a small number of the group you aim to discriminate against, generalise from that tiny sample that everyone in that group is responsible for it , and turn a blind eye to anyone in your own grouping who also commits similar offences

 

[simon ess]

Just remind me -

of all the recent, and not so recent, media types to have had their come-uppance over historical sexual abuse, how many have been non-white?

I forget.

 

[Laudrup]

Because there isn't a racial element to this - yes a bunch of pakistanis have been convicted of paedophile offences, but they didn't become paedophiles because they are pakistanis or because they are muslims , and it doesnt follow that because a small number of pakistanis have been convicted that all or even most pakistanis are also paedophiles

What you refer to as "racial patterns" I would charecterise as racist predjudice - if a bunch of white men are convicted of sex crimes would you concliude that sex crimes are habitual in all white men ?

End of the day every last nonce associated with the rotheram case should be locked up and never see the light of day again - but regardless of their skin colour not because of it

The perpetrators were Asian, but the councillors didn't address the Pakistani-heritage community to tackle it. Some thought it was a one off problem that would go away and several staff reported nervousness about reporting the ethnic origin in case they were called racist and some said they had clear direction from managers not to do so. How you deduce that their ethnic origin didn't matter I don't know. If the police and other agencies had been competent it could have been solved far quicker.

 

[simon ess]

If the police and other agencies had been competent it could have been solved far quicker.

That is the only part that matters.

 

[Laudrup]

exactly

what we have here is a classic racist tactic - pick on a repulsive crime commited by a small number of the group you aim to discriminate against, generalise from that tiny sample that everyone in that group is responsible for it , and turn a blind eye to anyone in your own grouping who also commits similar offences

It's you that is constructing that absurd argument, not me. I've outlined the facts of the case, you have just been talking about what you'd do to 'dirty nonce bastards' or other things you'd hear someone shout who hangs around outside a court wanting to bang on a prison van.

 

[Laudrup]

yes because the main power in the falls road cmmunity wasnt a terrorist organisation composed mainly of catholics - they didn't knee cap people for speaking to the authorities or anything like that .... :banghead:

Police in the Ireland are investigating 30 former IRA members alleged to have been involved in child abuse. I still don't see how your point relates to Rotherham? Kneecapping people for reporting child abuse?

 

[simon ess]

Police in the Ireland are investigating 30 former IRA members alleged to have been involved in child abuse.

Only now?

Why the delay I wonder.

 

[Laudrup]

Only now?

Why the delay I wonder.

What's your hunch?

 

[Byker28i]

The perpetrators were Asian, but the councillors didn't address the Pakistani-heritage community to tackle it. Some thought it was a one off problem that would go away and several staff reported nervousness about reporting the ethnic origin in case they were called racist and some said they had clear direction from managers not to do so. How you deduce that their ethnic origin didn't matter I don't know. If the police and other agencies had been competent it could have been solved far quicker.

There's a number of cases of cases with people in power blocking justice to people known to them. Masons, round table, church covering up abuses, it really isn't about race but human nature.

 

[SFTPhotography]

More. ISIS are calling to normal non terrorist Muslims to spill blood. Talk about stirring a hornets nest

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world...l&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer

 

[Deleted member 49549]

Shock headline, extremists being extreme.

'And We, the right wing press, shall act as spokesperson for these groups to help spread their word....'

 

[Deleted member 49549]

Meanwhile closer to home, and continuing the theme of angry white and thick:-

Ukip has launched an investigation into one of its Parliamentary candidates in Wales after it emerged that he had posted social media comments supportive of the far-right British National Party and the English Defence League.

Donald Grewar, who is due to stand for Ukip in Newport East at the general election in May, left a message on the BNP website, commenting favourably on a statement referring to gay people as “fascist perverts” and “paedophiles”.

When will more people learn the true colours of UKIP?

 

[SFTPhotography]

When will more people learn the true colours of UKIP?

So one person speaks for the whole party?

The UKIP movement is all about getting us out of the EU and able to control who we do and do not let in, and it's a movement that is gathering strength.

 

[viv1969]

So one person speaks for the whole party?

The UKIP movement is all about getting us out of the EU and able to control who we do and do not let in, and it's a movement that is gathering strength.

They might want to start with some...ohh, I don't know....policies.

 

[neil_g]

So one person speaks for the whole party?

a bit like the minority of extremist muslims dont speak for the majority of normal muslims?