An Independent Scotland?

[dejongj]

Are the Swiss independent?

Is the US independent? Is North Korea independent?

What has this to do with being 100% in control?

 

[H2O]

Scotland can use the £ with no currency union which is probably what will happen in the short term if it is a yes vote.

Yes, but they would have no control of monetary policy and no lender of last resort.

 

[lost]

Southern Ireland got it's super new road system installed & paid for by Brussels maybe that's why Scotland want to join the EU?

If I remember rightly Scotland has had roads built and paid for by the EU by being part of the UK. But that isn't going to cover all the roads and Alex Salmond stating Scotland is one of the richest countries in the world isn't going to help them to get grants for that even if they don't have to apply to join the EU and if they do have to apply how long would it take to ratify the treaty and them to become a member and then to apply for the grants possibly years.
Again nothing is clear cut after a yes vote the first few years could be very bumpy indeed before everything is sorted out. Many people have mortgages and debts they need to pay every month and won't have the luxuries of saying I will pay in 4/5 years most people have seen how Stirling has dipped. If firms are going to pull out and it is on the cards for some then the future in the short term is uncertain.

 

[dejongj]

I get what you are saying, so why are there as many retailers saying it won't make any difference?

It may not, and then when it happens it will. Oh dear, not the retailers problem.

And especially when taking on a different currency there is a very clear and rather large recent example that demonstrates how prices will increase.

Naturally when you are fully in control you can set your own currency, print your own money, set your own interest rates, set your own tax rates etc....it will be great. Alternatively you can nationalise the retailers and charge whatever you want.

 

[Finste]

Even accepting one of those agreements would nullify their independence according to dejongj's logic.

Hmm, Not by my understanding of what he is saying. Switzerland has a measure of control as they can get up and walk away from any negotiations. Germany/France are simply told the way things are going to be. They can't walk away. No real control at all.

Regards...

 

[border_all]

True, but Asda don't just sell food. Neither do B&Q or John Lewis.
Wonder if Dejongi will "like" this

Ah another thing we agree on then those who claim independence will help with food banks are not expecting it being better for the poor then

 

[BBR]

Define poor? There's a lot of hatred towards the Tories and understandably so. Naive I think but understandable. But let's put this into context. When people say they hate the Tories they usually are referring to the Thatcher years. A decadeish of Tory government in hundreds of years of union. This govt is a coalition so technically not even (fully) Tory. But let's assume it is.

Let's look at the facts. At the last election every major party accepted that major cuts had to be made in the wake of the dire financial situation. Let's not bother dredging up who is/was responsible it doesn't matter. We were where we were. The only difference between the parties was how much they'd cut. Tories said they'd cut more than Labour. In reality the Tories (coalition) actually only managed to make cuts around what Labour were saying they'd cut.

So my point is that whilst you can all sit there saying "Oh f'ing Tories etc etc." The reality is that it didn't matter who got into power, the cuts would have been pretty much the same. The only difference would be which groups would have been affected.

And same back when Thatcher was in power. 1979 wasn't exactly a socialist utopia was it? You couldn't even get your bins collected or dead buried without being a picket crossing scab.

So in reality it seems to me like the Tories are the bad guys because each time they've got to power they've inherited a right mess and had to make the bad decisions to sort things out financially.

Who will do that if you are independent? Labour? I doubt it. The SNP? Ha ha don't make me laugh. I'll tell you who it will be. It will be the markets who will cripple you with high interest rates like Greece. Of course most banks seem to like London so technically you could still blame England when someone turns off the money tap.

Well said

 

[dejongj]

Scotland can use the £ with no currency union which is probably what will happen in the short term if it is a yes vote.

Ahem no. That is called a currency union. I've only highlighted that several times. The technical term would be an informal currency union, meaning no common policy. This you won't be in control over your currency nor your interest rates etc. you'd be totally dependent on Westminster and its policies.

Absolutely possible, and I agree highly likely to happen. However iScotland won't be in control and I expect lending rates will become very very high.

 

[dejongj]

Even accepting one of those agreements would nullify their independence according to dejongj's logic.

No it doesn't

 

[Laudrup]

Hmm, Not by my understanding of what he is saying. Switzerland has a measure of control as they can get up and walk away from any negotiations. Germany/France are simply told the way things are going to be. They can't walk away. No real control at all.

Regards...

It is quite clear what he is saying, accept their rules and you're not independent. As for withdrawl from the EU if the Tories get in next time we could be faced with that very question.

 

[Laudrup]

No it doesn't

But they are not 100% in control are they? They are not really independent are they. Frying pan into the fire comes to mind.

You're just making it up as you go along.

 

[lost]

I get what you are saying, so why are there as many retailers saying it won't make any difference?

Hi Bob
I would guess it would be the amount of stores and whether the goods were fruit vegetables and other perishable items. Also the amount of produce bought per head again look at the prices in Norway to the number of people I am not trying to scaremonger but trying to look at why in a common sense sought of way. Both the yes and no camp are going to extremes in their views but it is the person in the street who will carry the brunt of the first few years. I am in business for myself and have been for a long time I wasn't born with a silver spoon in my mouth I have had to earn everything I have got and there has been to many assurances everything will be ok by the Yes camp for my liking remember the yes MP's will still get their money no matter what. It is the likes of you and others who will carry the hardships not them if you really believe you will be better off go for it but before you do look at the facts and ask yourself what you would do if you were D Cameron and Co after a Yes vote you would make things as difficult as possible then look at the businesses through the eyes of the owners try to put yourself in different peoples shoes and the whole debate changes everyone has their own agendas same with the EU. Why did Cameron and Co come running up to Scotland it wasn't the oil it was to try and safe guard their own jobs plain and simple.
Always remember 99% of people work in their own best interests look at Animal Farm in this case all the MP's are the pigs with their snouts in the troughs.

 

[border_all]

Scotland can use the £ with no currency union which is probably what will happen in the short term if it is a yes vote.

What if people in the rUK won't accept your money or charge 20% for the pleasure

I grant it may happen but let's say April 2015 start of a tax year and prior to the rUK general election

Course you could lodge a huge deposit as security, no one seems to want the oil maybe that would do as all this is only you want control

 

[Finste]

It is quite clear what he is saying, accept their rules and you're not independent. As for withdrawl from the EU if the Tories get in next time we could be faced with that very question.

As I said earlier it depends on how you accept their rules, case-by-case or carte blanche.

Wasn't one of the SNP's arguments for continuing in the EU was that there is no mechanism for exiting the EU? If so, how could it apply to the UK?

Regards..

 

[border_all]

Hi Bob
I would guess it would be the amount of stores and whether the goods were fruit vegetables and other perishable items. Also the amount of produce bought per head again look at the prices in Norway to the number of people I am not trying to scaremonger but trying to look at why in a common sense sought of way. Both the yes and no camp are going to extremes in their views but it is the person in the street who will carry the brunt of the first few years. I am in business for myself and have been for a long time I wasn't born with a silver spoon in my mouth I have had to earn everything I have got and there has been to many assurances everything will be ok by the Yes camp for my liking remember the yes MP's will still get their money no matter what. It is the likes of you and others who will carry the hardships not them if you really believe you will be better off go for it but before you do look at the facts and ask yourself what you would do if you were D Cameron and Co after a Yes vote you would make things as difficult as possible then look at the businesses through the eyes of the owners try to put yourself in different peoples shoes and the whole debate changes everyone has their own agendas same with the EU. Why did Cameron and Co come running up to Scotland it wasn't the oil it was to try and safe guard their own jobs plain and simple.
Always remember 99% of people work in their own best interests look at Animal Farm in this case all the MP's are the pigs with their snouts in the troughs.

I think it's trident bases and it's highly doubtful the offer will pass parliament just my opinion and at least honest even if I am wrong

 

[Laudrup]

What if people in the rUK won't accept your money or charge 20% for the pleasure

I grant it may happen but let's say April 2015 start of a tax year and prior to the rUK general election

Course you could lodge a huge deposit as security, no one seems to want the oil maybe that would do as all this is only you want control

Then I guess they would shop elsewhere. Business would need to be booming though to turn away customers which is unlikely in these economic times.

 

[Diving Pete]

I just had a 'eureka moment....

Salmond doesn't care about what happens after...

He has realised that it is better 'for him' to be a big fish in a little pond than to be a minow in the sea & be eaten by sharks.

All hail King Salmond.

In all seriousness if I had a vote it would be yes - just please go & don't forget to shut the door behind you.

 

[lost]

I think it's trident bases and it's highly doubtful the offer will pass parliament just my opinion and at least honest even if I am wrong

Even the Trident bases could be worked around in the short term it is the biggest sticking point in my mind but it is not impossible to find a solution where to keep them.

 

[Diving Pete]

Hmm, Not by my understanding of what he is saying. Switzerland has a measure of control as they can get up and walk away from any negotiations. Germany/France are simply told the way things are going to be. They can't walk away. No real control at all.

Regards...

That's more because Switzerland has all the money that these corrupt persons have stashed at the expense of every Euro member...

 

[Bobsyeruncle]

Even the Trident bases could be worked around in the short term it is the biggest sticking point in my mind but it is not impossible to find a solution where to keep them.

True, we need a currency in the short term and the RUK need somewhere to keep Trident.
So all countries sit round the table, scratching their heads and rubbing their chins. Then someone shouts "I've got an idea......why don't we negotiate"?
Mmm, never thought of that

 

[H2O]

It is quite clear what he is saying, accept their rules and you're not independent. As for withdrawl from the EU if the Tories get in next time we could be faced with that very question.

No. The Swiss follow trade agreements. If they don't want to any more the can try and find someone else to trade with or do the work themselves.

EU members do not have that choice.

 

[Bobsyeruncle]

That's more because Switzerland has all the money that these corrupt persons have stashed at the expense of every Euro member...

Maybe we could have it

 

[Laudrup]

Even the Trident bases could be worked around in the short term it is the biggest sticking point in my mind but it is not impossible to find a solution where to keep them.

Coulport would be difficult and expensive to replicate in the rUK but they would need to be housed somewhere if it was a yes vote and the constitution was written that there would be no nukes in Scotland. The SNP give a 2020 deadline but I could see that running over or being negotiated for other things.

 

[Laudrup]

No. The Swiss follow trade agreements. If they don't want to any more the can try and find someone else to trade with or do the work themselves.

EU members do not have that choice.

Switzerland and EU relations:

These negotiations resulted in a total of ten treaties, negotiated in two phases, the sum of which makes a large share of EU law applicable to Switzerland. The treaties are:

Bilateral I

1. Free movement of people
2. Air traffic
3. Road traffic
4. Agriculture
5. Technical trade barriers
6. Public procurement
7. Science

Bilateral II

1. Security and asylum and Schengen membership
2. Cooperation in fraud pursuits
3. Final stipulations in open questions about agriculture, environment, media, education, care of the elderly, statistics and services.

"The sum of which makes a large share of EU law applicable to Switzerland." is the salient point.

 

[Dave *]

Coulport would be difficult and expensive to replicate in the rUK but they would need to be housed somewhere if it was a yes vote and the constitution was written that there would be no nukes in Scotland. The SNP give a 2020 deadline but I could see that running over or being negotiated for other things.

Moving Trident might prove expensive for Scotland...

From the Parliamentary Select Committee:

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201213/cmselect/cmscotaf/676/67607.htm

47. The Minister for the Armed Forces has said that if a newly separate Scotland insisted upon the removal of Trident out of Faslane, and the UK was forced into developing a new base at great expense, then the associated costs would be included in the separation negotiations.

The whole paper is actually quite informative.

 

[H2O]

Switzerland and EU relations:

"The sum of which makes a large share of EU law applicable to Switzerland." is the salient point.

It'd still be much easier for them to break free of those treaties if they wanted to than for an EU member state.

 

[gadgeteer]

And yet.... My wife, who is from south Wales, opened my eyes to a different take on it. Yes, the Thatcher government inherited a huge mess and did what they thought had to be done. But the thing that made them really unpopular was the brutal way in which it was done. Scargill and the miners' union had to be broken, of course. But the fallout from that was that dozens of towns and villages in Wales - who ironically weren't even particularly pro Scargill - had their hearts ripped out when the pits closed. These days, a government presiding over huge unemployment like that would put measures into place to try to alleviate the impact. Back then, the Thatcher government did nothing, and that - far more so than the policy of mine closures per se - is what made them so hated.

We're probably digressing but the real idiot in that was Scargill. Remember, he was the one who took them out on strike without a ballot as mandated (rightly or wrongly) by law. I don't think there was a doubt he'd have won a strike ballot. So why not call one and make the strike completely legal.

Mining in the UK by 1974 was being subsidised to the tune of £1.3 BILLION (in 1974!!!) and when Scargill was asked at what point should a loss making mine be closed he said "As far as I can see, the loss is without limits.” Erm....right....

So if your kid comes up to you tomorrow and demands £20,000 or he goes on strike. Do you give in and negotiate? No of course not. What they were asking was completely unreasonable in the first place!

 

[dejongj]

You're just making it up as you go along.

So shifting goal posts didn't work, and now you are suggesting I'm making stuff up. Well if you belief that 100% control is possible without having your own currency and your own central bank then you are right I must be missing something.

I'm rather bored with your ongoing denial, so will leave you with to it.

 

[Blank_Canvas]

The Swiss aren't EU members are they? & don't they have their own central bank and currency?

So completely different to the proposed "independent" Scotland?

They do have their own currency it's called the Swiss Franc. They also have their own bank !!

If Scotland don't want to be part of the EU and don't get the pound then they too can have their own currency 'the groat' which won't be worth much !!

 

[Laudrup]

So shifting goal posts didn't work, and now you are suggesting I'm making stuff up. Well if you belief that 100% control is possible without having your own currency and your own central bank then you are right I must be missing something.

I'm rather bored with your ongoing denial, so will leave you with to it.

You're the one denying Germany and France are independent countries not me.

 

[dod]

so steeps out now that the true face of the indys has been exposed :-/

 

[Deleted member 49549]

As an English conservative voter who has always lived in the south of England, I agree with a lot of this.

And yet.... My wife, who is from south Wales, opened my eyes to a different take on it. Yes, the Thatcher government inherited a huge mess and did what they thought had to be done. But the thing that made them really unpopular was the brutal way in which it was done. Scargill and the miners' union had to be broken, of course. But the fallout from that was that dozens of towns and villages in Wales - who ironically weren't even particularly pro Scargill - had their hearts ripped out when the pits closed. These days, a government presiding over huge unemployment like that would put measures into place to try to alleviate the impact. Back then, the Thatcher government did nothing, and that - far more so than the policy of mine closures per se - is what made them so hated.

I heard a long time ago that Thatcher only ever visited Wales once on her premiership, towards the end of her reign. Unfortunately i havent ever been able to verify this fact. Can anybody confirm or refute?

 

[gadgeteer]

This whole independence malarky reminds me very much of when I split up with my ex nearly 12 years ago. We'd been together for a while. Had two kids and I was 27-28 at the time. We were living in a nice neighbourhood, 4 bed semi garage, two cars etc. In short life was pretty good for our age and I was pretty happy with my lot. My ex on the other hand wasn't. Always comparing us to others and what we didn't have. For example:

Her: "Oh look at your friend (Bob). He goes on holiday x times a year and lives in a bigger house than we do."
Me: "Yes, he also earns 3x what we do!"

For that and several other reasons eventually she was so unhappy that we decided to split up. Her plan was simple. Free of me and my non-ambitious ways and never having enough money to live how she wanted, she'd spend all the money from her inheritance (that I wouldn't let her spend) on a business and work damn hard! I'd of course pay her a generous child support on top of her income and she & the kids would live happily ever after. Brilliant. It sounded great on paper.

When we sat down to talk about finances she was all prepared. She'd been to a solicitor and he'd told her everything I had to give her. Except she didn't get the exact deal she'd expected. She got less. Significantly less. (Ironically it was less than I originally offered her but I digress). Net result was huge hole in her finances. To cut a long story short, 18 months later her business folded, the kids were living with me full time and she had gone from entrepreneur to part time waitress.

It's been 12 years since and the kids still live with me, I enjoy a more comfortable life now than I did (even though it was fine at the time) because I never took huge risks and have been a steady eddy. She now sees the kids alternate weekends, had to sell her house since she couldn't afford it and rents a double room. My ex works full time and works very very hard. That much I don't doubt.

The point I'm making is this. Life is grey. It's not black & white. To me and to many others, you may argue that her 'independence' hasn't been a great success. If you look at the facts & figures it's definitely not been. Mainly for her. It's not been financially better for me either. If we hadn't have split we'd have been mortgage free about 5 years ago. Instead I still have a mortgage around my neck for another 15 years and she's renting with no realistic prospect of buying.

I guess this is the point of the better together campaign. If you divorce then you are pretty much both guaranteed to lose out. Financially at least. Emotionally you may still want to be on your own and that's fine. Just stop trying to lie to voters about how much better it will be because the chances are it won't be better.

 

[dinners]

Had to take my 4 kids into Perth city center today.

What a joke.

The little ones were crying out for a balloon because the 'Yes' mob were really out in force and clearly using kiddy pressure to get the mums and dads sucked in.

My eldest was actually shocked at the amount of parents that had their kids pimped up to the nines.

I won 6 - 5 in the 'how many people's balloon's can you pop without them knowing you did it on purpose' competition.

 

[simon ess]

so steeps out now that the true face of the indys has been exposed :-/

Or he remembered W.B. Yeats,

The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.

Actually, that's unfair. Steeps presented his case admirably, even if I do thoroughly disagree with him.

But, where is the conviction of the Scottish no campaign?

It does seem to be lacking.
The campaign is there; the arguments are there, but passion and conviction? That mostly seems to be coming from non Scots.

 

[dinners]

But, where is the conviction of the Scottish no campaign?

It does seem to be lacking.

The campaign is there; the arguments are there, but passion and conviction? That mostly seems to be coming from non Scots.

Don't confuse the two.

It's the YES who are campaigning for change so it goes without saying they will be the most vociferous.

There's also a lot ill informed voters susceptible to the idea that it's a Scotland v England thing (thanks Salmond) so given the electorate it's a 'home game'.

It's not about passion and conviction - it's about cutting through the bile and finding reason and sense.

Salmond has long since burned his bridges when faced with what made sense and he's now pretty much irresponsible.

Forget the independence legacy. Win or loose his legacy will be to have divided a nation.

 

[StewartR]

Yes, we are a democracy, and the UK Government has to look after our interests first. If Scotland decided to go its own way, and a compromise puts the UK at a disadvantage the a UK Government would be wrong to bend. It's simply a matter of where their loyalty must lay. If it screws the Scots, then so be it, they made their choice.
Just as Scotland's Government would be wrong to bend to accommodate us, and would have no conscious about screwing us.

I am not saying it is or should be a sign of weakness, I mean that while the Scots are part of the UK then effects of policy on them must and is important, just as it is for everywhere else in the UK. If they opt out, then the UK Government MUST look after it's own electorate. And the Scots Government must do the same. There's no weakness in that, it's simply doing what Governments do, they Govern their own Country as they think right. If that has a negative impact on another Country, well, so be it.

However the Edinburgh agreement, which was signed by Cameron and Salmond, says otherwise. They agreed that they would negotiate in good faith and in the interests of both Scotland and the UK.

 

[StewartR]

We're probably digressing but the real idiot in that was Scargill....

Oh, totally. I don't think we disagree at all here. I was just trying to illustrate why (in Wales at least) there was the enduring hatred for the Thatcher government. It wasn't just what they did, but how it was perceived they did it.

 

[dod]

But, where is the conviction of the Scottish no campaign?

Empty barrels make most sound. If you stand against it you're anti-Scotland, a traitor, should move to England. Most "No's" are just getting on with things.

 

[dejongj]

However the Edinburgh agreement, which was signed by Cameron and Salmond, says otherwise. They agreed that they would negotiate in good faith and in the interests of both Scotland and the UK.

Isn't part of the problem that the uk has always negotiated in good faith for Scotland as part of the uk. To me it is such a meaningless statement yet many hang their coats upon that snippet.

For negotiations won't have to be bitter, however they won't be pleasant and it doesn't mean you'll get everything you want. Cameron won't have the support of rUK when it comes to it to give away anything to Scotland. It will be political suicide.

The word on the street and pubs, and churches done here is a feeling of not being wanted which turned into a case of; fine go then, p*** off, close the door behind you, don't bother taking a keep as the locks will be changed and we are keeping the table silver. But you can take your subo cd with yah. And good luck but don't bother coming back and asking for money. I paraphrase naturally, but that is the sentiment here in the outer metropolitan area.

But to balance it out, there are a few as well who would be looking to move back....

Just you local news report from the streets of the chilterns.