An Independent Scotland?

gadgeteer said:
Define poor? There's a lot of hatred towards the Tories and understandably so. Naive I think but understandable. But let's put this into context. When people say they hate the Tories they usually are referring to the Thatcher years. A decadeish of Tory government in hundreds of years of union. This govt is a coalition so technically not even (fully) Tory. But let's assume it is.

Let's look at the facts. At the last election every major party accepted that major cuts had to be made in the wake of the dire financial situation. Let's not bother dredging up who is/was responsible it doesn't matter. We were where we were. The only difference between the parties was how much they'd cut. Tories said they'd cut more than Labour. In reality the Tories (coalition) actually only managed to make cuts around what Labour were saying they'd cut.

So my point is that whilst you can all sit there saying "Oh f'ing Tories etc etc." The reality is that it didn't matter who got into power, the cuts would have been pretty much the same. The only difference would be which groups would have been affected.

And same back when Thatcher was in power. 1979 wasn't exactly a socialist utopia was it? You couldn't even get your bins collected or dead buried without being a picket crossing scab.

So in reality it seems to me like the Tories are the bad guys because each time they've got to power they've inherited a right mess and had to make the bad decisions to sort things out financially.

Who will do that if you are independent? Labour? I doubt it. The SNP? Ha ha don't make me laugh. I'll tell you who it will be. It will be the markets who will cripple you with high interest rates like Greece. Of course most banks seem to like London so technically you could still blame England when someone turns off the money tap.
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There has been a lot of thought and honesty gone into that post. well said gadgeteer

imo this has got to be one of the most truthful posts in this entire thread.
 
Laudrup said:
The tories are toxic in Scotland and no amount of 'big boys did it and ran away' excuses will bring them back into power here. The tories are even losing people to jumped up single issue parties like UKIP. Scottish voters should really vote in who they want to run the country and have full control over it and that would mean the end of the tories here.
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Yet the Tories haven't really lost much vote up in Scotland. So to me it seems they are already voting for who they want.

And yet again you talk about full control, yet none of the possibilities on the table provide that. But I doubt that will be a fruitful discussion as you will just move the goalpost as to what control means. It's all about the English and Tories isn't it. It's all thatchers fault isn't it? Will someone please think of the children.
 
dejongj said:
Yet the Tories haven't really lost much vote up in Scotland. So to me it seems they are already voting for who they want.

And yet again you talk about full control, yet none of the possibilities on the table provide that. But I doubt that will be a fruitful discussion as you will just move the goalpost as to what control means. It's all about the English and Tories isn't it. It's all thatchers fault isn't it? Will someone please think of the children.
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Your last example was Germany and France aren't independent because they are part of the euro and the ECB sets the interest rates. Are the Swiss independent?
 
gadgeteer said:
Define poor? There's a lot of hatred towards the Tories and understandably so. Naive I think but understandable. But let's put this into context. When people say they hate the Tories they usually are referring to the Thatcher years. A decadeish of Tory government in hundreds of years of union. This govt is a coalition so technically not even (fully) Tory. But let's assume it is.

Let's look at the facts. At the last election every major party accepted that major cuts had to be made in the wake of the dire financial situation. Let's not bother dredging up who is/was responsible it doesn't matter. We were where we were. The only difference between the parties was how much they'd cut. Tories said they'd cut more than Labour. In reality the Tories (coalition) actually only managed to make cuts around what Labour were saying they'd cut.

So my point is that whilst you can all sit there saying "Oh f'ing Tories etc etc." The reality is that it didn't matter who got into power, the cuts would have been pretty much the same. The only difference would be which groups would have been affected.

And same back when Thatcher was in power. 1979 wasn't exactly a socialist utopia was it? You couldn't even get your bins collected or dead buried without being a picket crossing scab.

So in reality it seems to me like the Tories are the bad guys because each time they've got to power they've inherited a right mess and had to make the bad decisions to sort things out financially.

Who will do that if you are independent? Labour? I doubt it. The SNP? Ha ha don't make me laugh. I'll tell you who it will be. It will be the markets who will cripple you with high interest rates like Greece. Of course most banks seem to like London so technically you could still blame England when someone turns off the money tap.
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I agree with most of what you say. I've never voted for Labour, but have voted Tory. If you'd stopped just before the last paragraph, I'd have agreed with everything you said. There really was no need to include the last paragraph, as all it does is cause resentment. Only my opinion of course.
 
gadgeteer said:
There's a lot of hatred towards the Tories and understandably so. Naive I think but understandable. But let's put this into context. When people say they hate the Tories they usually are referring to the Thatcher years. A decadeish of Tory government in hundreds of years of union.
...
So in reality it seems to me like the Tories are the bad guys because each time they've got to power they've inherited a right mess and had to make the bad decisions to sort things out financially.
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As an English conservative voter who has always lived in the south of England, I agree with a lot of this.

And yet.... My wife, who is from south Wales, opened my eyes to a different take on it. Yes, the Thatcher government inherited a huge mess and did what they thought had to be done. But the thing that made them really unpopular was the brutal way in which it was done. Scargill and the miners' union had to be broken, of course. But the fallout from that was that dozens of towns and villages in Wales - who ironically weren't even particularly pro Scargill - had their hearts ripped out when the pits closed. These days, a government presiding over huge unemployment like that would put measures into place to try to alleviate the impact. Back then, the Thatcher government did nothing, and that - far more so than the policy of mine closures per se - is what made them so hated.
 
Going back to Thatcher is somewhat out of date in what most Conservatives want from the party and the country today ……. I hope ……… I think …….. so let stay with today and the future and think about what's best for the UK and Scotland … if they vote yes we should all work together to ensure what happens is mutually beneficial. At the end of the day we have to accept that a democratic society is the best that you can have today.

It will do the UK no good to think or to act otherwise
 
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The trouble is with what you say Bill, is while its a great idea, what's good for Scotland isn't necessarily good for the UK and vice versa.

The way the SNP are planning it even assuming it would work would screw up what the UK Government have been doing, so years of austerity that are just coming good, for nothing.

The SNP are opposed to working the way the UK want, which is why CU wont work, and so are the only alternative Government in Scotland, Labour.
Worse though, is a more left wing version of what Labour are in the UK.
I'm afraid that negotiations before a Scots general Election are a bit pointless, as what's agreed now, may well be all bets are off after.
 
Bobsyeruncle said:
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I have a strong feeling you are wrong on this point :banghead: or at least from many i think many who have their heritage of British are not going to be happy folk. I will Be English you Scottish in the eyes of many Britain will be gone even if rUK continues.

You want independence you do not need it
 
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Bernie174 said:
The trouble is with what you say Bill, is while its a great idea, what's good for Scotland isn't necessarily good for the UK and vice versa.

The way the SNP are planning it even assuming it would work would screw up what the UK Government have been doing, so years of austerity that are just coming good, for nothing.

The SNP are opposed to working the way the UK want, which is why CU wont work, and so are the only alternative Government in Scotland, Labour.
Worse though, is a more left wing version of what Labour are in the UK.
I'm afraid that negotiations before a Scots general Election are a bit pointless, as what's agreed now, may well be all bets are off after.
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Hi Bernie

my point would be that at the end of the day we are all people and not government ……. if it turns out bad then change will need to be considered ….. look at what is happening around the world economically and politically, nothing is ever forever.

If the people of Scotland say Yes … we all just have to accept it and get on with it and make the best of what we have got if it is worse than what we had ……. we live in a democracy and that is worth more than anything else, IMHO.

Listening to all the arguments I have no idea now if it is good or bad for either or both parties ………… the question I would ask and maybe we should ask about many other situations is,

?how did we get to this?
 
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border_all said:
You want independence you do not need it
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That's your opinion, and its fine by me if you want to think that.
People want lots of things they don't need. Better cameras, faster cars, bigger houses.
And before anyone chips in, I know wanting a better camera doesn't divide a nation.
 
Yes, we are a democracy, and the UK Government has to look after our interests first. If Scotland decided to go its own way, and a compromise puts the UK at a disadvantage the a UK Government would be wrong to bend. It's simply a matter of where their loyalty must lay. If it screws the Scots, then so be it, they made their choice.
Just as Scotland's Government would be wrong to bend to accommodate us, and would have no conscious about screwing us.
 
Bernie174 said:
Yes, we are a democracy, and the UK Government has to look after our interests first. If Scotland decided to go its own way, and a compromise puts the UK at a disadvantage the a UK Government would be wrong to bend. It's simply a matter of where their loyalty must lay. If it screws the Scots, then so be it, they made their choice.
Just as Scotland's Government would be wrong to bend to accommodate us, and would have no conscious about screwing us.
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In situation as you describe "compromise" would not be a sign of weakness, provided goodwill was on both sides
 
If Scotland introduce a lower rate of VAT, then prices would be lower.
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Yes, they would, but then they'd have to replace that income from somewhere else. Whatever you do, it means someone will be happy, and someone will be might annoyed.
Same as it is now as part of the UK. Only the Scots wont have the English to blame.
 
It seems obvious to me that the Scottish people will have to pay more tax if the SNP are to fulfil their social promises.

The UK will need to raise more in taxes if the standards within the NHS and social services etc., are to improve ……. but that will be put off as long as it can be ……… the SNP will be scrutinised from day one if it is a Yes
 
In situation as you describe "compromise" would not be a sign of weakness, provided goodwill was on both sides
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I am not saying it is or should be a sign of weakness, I mean that while the Scots are part of the UK then effects of policy on them must and is important, just as it is for everywhere else in the UK. If they opt out, then the UK Government MUST look after it's own electorate. And the Scots Government must do the same. There's no weakness in that, it's simply doing what Governments do, they Govern their own Country as they think right. If that has a negative impact on another Country, well, so be it.
Thats why we wont go into CU with Scotland, in an ideal world then yes, no problem, but their policy after Independence would harm the UK, hence its a non starter.
 
Laudrup said:
Your last example was Germany and France aren't independent because they are part of the euro and the ECB sets the interest rates. Are the Swiss independent?
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See those goal post shift again? You broad up that example not me. And you did that when I questioned being 100% in control which was your measure. And no they aren't 100% in control. And for the record I assume that full control is the same as 100% control ;)
 
Bernie174 said:
I am not saying it is or should be a sign of weakness, I mean that while the Scots are part of the UK then effects of policy on them must and is important, just as it is for everywhere else in the UK. If they opt out, then the UK Government MUST look after it's own electorate. And the Scots Government must do the same. There's no weakness in that, it's simply doing what Governments do, they Govern their own Country as they think right. If that has a negative impact on another Country, well, so be it.
Thats why we wont go into CU with Scotland, in an ideal world then yes, no problem, but their policy after Independence would harm the UK, hence its a non starter.
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I cannot see that the UK Government would do anything to harm the Scottish people by not discussing a solution to their currency requirements.

Well I hope that they would not anyway as if they are Independent it really, IMHO, would serve no purpose. Speaking from a purely English perspective the Scottish people are our friends not someone that we should "fight" metaphorically speaking.

BUT

this referendum is just "getting on my tits" - I think that it is the correct expression - and I think that it is pointless …… but I live in France and I'm retired
 
dejongj said:
See those goal post shift again? You broad up that example not me. And you did that when I questioned being 100% in control which was your measure. And no they aren't 100% in control. And for the record I assume that full control is the same as 100% control ;)
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You were the one that said Germany and France weren't independent and your argument to back it up was they couldn't set interest rates because they are in the euro. Are countries like Switzerland independent?
 
Bobsyeruncle said:
How do you explain that?
So no british companies operate overseas/in foreign countries?
Several companies have stated that prices may rise, not will rise. Also, several have said they don't think it will make any difference.
I don't know why you keep dredging up the so called hatred. I have not see anything any worse than I would see at a football match.
I don't agree with the comments made by Jim Sillars, and I'm sure plenty of others won't either.
At the end of the day, none of us know with any degree of certainty about prices, company relocation etc etc.
companies will base themselves wherever it suits them best financially, and for many, that may well be in Scotland, if it suits them.
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Hi Bob
I think the reason they are saying prices could rise is at the moment you are part of the UK when prices are calculated on items it is the distance between stores in the UK as a whole mileage wise so if the rest of the UK is taken out of the maths you will probably find your stores are further apart which would then mean it would cost more shipping between stores so there is a rise in the prices on the shelves if you become independent. Taxation could also make the prices vary. As a smaller country you could find your road building costs escalate because of the size of the Scottish population i.e how many head of people per mile of road there are a lot of things that I feel have not been covered by either side in this debate.
 
lost said:
Taxation could also make the prices vary. As a smaller country you could find your road building costs escalate because of the size of the Scottish population i.e how many head of people per mile of road there are a lot of things that I feel have not been covered by either side in this debate.
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Southern Ireland got it's super new road system installed & paid for by Brussels maybe that's why Scotland want to join the EU?
 
Laudrup said:
You were the one that said Germany and France weren't independent and your argument to back it up was they couldn't set interest rates because they are in the euro. Are countries like Switzerland independent?
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Are you for real? Are you thick? Or just ignoring the bit you brought up about being 100% in control. Are you 100% in control of you can't control your own interest rate?

This is like ground hog day. You keep on going over the same thing over and over again and avoid what it was that you said then. And recently repeated using the "full control" term.
 
lost said:
Hi Bob
I think the reason they are saying prices could rise is at the moment you are part of the UK when prices are calculated on items it is the distance between stores in the UK as a whole mileage wise so if the rest of the UK is taken out of the maths you will probably find your stores are further apart which would then mean it would cost more shipping between stores so there is a rise in the prices on the shelves if you become independent. Taxation could also make the prices vary. As a smaller country you could find your road building costs escalate because of the size of the Scottish population i.e how many head of people per mile of road there are a lot of things that I feel have not been covered by either side in this debate.
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And not just that. The overall scale of produce will be much much smaller. Buy less, pay higher prices. Simple supply and demand. Unless your purely going to consume local produce only.
 
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dejongj said:
Are you for real? Are you thick? Or just ignoring the bit you brought up about being 100% in control. Are you 100% in control of you can't control your own interest rate?

This is like ground hog day. You keep on going over the same thing over and over again and avoid what it was that you said then. And recently repeated using the "full control" term.
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Are the Swiss independent?
 
lost said:
Hi Bob
I think the reason they are saying prices could rise is at the moment you are part of the UK when prices are calculated on items it is the distance between stores in the UK as a whole mileage wise so if the rest of the UK is taken out of the maths you will probably find your stores are further apart which would then mean it would cost more shipping between stores so there is a rise in the prices on the shelves if you become independent. Taxation could also make the prices vary. As a smaller country you could find your road building costs escalate because of the size of the Scottish population i.e how many head of people per mile of road there are a lot of things that I feel have not been covered by either side in this debate.
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I get what you are saying, so why are there as many retailers saying it won't make any difference?
 
Laudrup said:
Are the Swiss independent?
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The Swiss aren't EU members are they? & don't they have their own central bank and currency?

So completely different to the proposed "independent" Scotland?
 
Laudrup said:
A large share of EU law is applicable to Switzerland, so is it independent?
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The relationship between Switzerland and the EU is defined by a series of bilateral agreements on a case-by-case basis to satisfy conditions for the single market. The relationship between Germany/France and the EU is that they must implement in their national laws everything that the EU issues as law/regulation. So not really comparable at all. Switzerland is independent but EU countries, not so much. Euro counties even less so as there is more political/financial union between them to support the Euro.

Regards...
 
Finste said:
The relationship between Switzerland and the EU is defined by a series of bilateral agreements on a case-by-case basis to satisfy conditions for the single market. The relationship between Germany/France and the EU is that they must implement in their national laws everything that the EU issues as law/regulation. So not really comparable at all. Switzerland is independent but EU countries, not so much. Euro counties even less so as there is more political/financial union between them to support the Euro.

Regards...
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Even accepting one of those agreements would nullify their independence according to dejongj's logic.
 
H2O said:
The Swiss aren't EU members are they? & don't they have their own central bank and currency?

So completely different to the proposed "independent" Scotland?
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Scotland can use the £ with no currency union which is probably what will happen in the short term if it is a yes vote.
 
Bobsyeruncle said:
True, but Asda don't just sell food. Neither do B&Q or John Lewis.
Wonder if Dejongi will "like" this:p
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True, they sell children's cloths as well :)

However, a possible iScotland could choose to charge vat on those products or not. The world is your oyster, it will be your governments choice if you go independent.

Heck why not reinvent yourself as the place to get cheap electronics from :)
 
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