An Independent Scotland?

Anyway according to a New Poll today by that esteemed newspaper the 'Daily Record', the 'No' campaign jumps to a 6 point lead ! - 53% to vote for Scotland to stay in the Union.

Maybe people are starting to use their heads now !
 
Bob
It's not a matter of opinions, the SNP have produced a white paper and touted it as a factual document. Some of it makes sense, mostly it doesn't and is full of opinions dressed up as facts. Hugh has rubbished anyone elses view that does not doggedly stick to that document. In a way, I admire his loyalty, but that ain't going to feed people, or employ them.

I've read what you have said in this thread, and on the whole you have made it clear that you want independence and you'll be happy with any pain, it's also more than clear you are fully aware that the SNP's white paper isn't as factual as they have claimed it to be.
I also appreciate that the Scots aren't all daft, but there's going to be a proportion who, for example are happy if they keep Sterling and stay in the EU. The SNP and their mouthpiece have claimed from the start that will be the case. So in effect those votes for yes have been in some, possibly many cases been gained on the basis of something untrue.

Had they said, Ok, this is the plan. This is plan B, because this that and the other is reliant upon others outside our control, then we wouldn't be having this conversation. They haven't, they have stuck to their guns, telling everyone, via people like Hugh that they are being lied to by anyone who disagrees.

Again, it comes back to the honesty point. It's fundamental in this, given it will be a close run thing, which means that if it goes yes, nearly half of you are going to be very dischuffed. More so when they find that they are done up like a first class kipper on top. Of the other half, when they find out they may well have a fiver in their pocket, it doesn't get them what it did, or they can't get the size of mortgage they want, or that their job has gone, or their community has been decimated because the UK Military have moved out, and the promises made by Salmond were worthless, may not be too pleased with the likes of Hugh.

I can't stand Cameron, but for once he made a very valid point, this isn't like an election, it's not 5 years and you can vote the guilty bar stewards out. It's for good. That may well work for you, I don't see it working quite as well for a lot of the yes voters.
 
British Petroleum (BP) are encouraging people to vote 'No' as well !!!

I bet Salmond will say what do they know about oil !!!
 
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As this thread rumble and rambles on, I'm increasingly of the opinion that there is only one problem here.

But it's a biggie.

"Should Scotland be an independent country?" is the wrong question.

Any reasonable proud Scot who likes the idea of independence would say, "I like the idea of that - what are the implications? What would be the consequences? How would it all work?"

The answer seems to increasingly be, "well, their are a lot of possibilities and I'm sure we can negotiate a good deal, but we don't know for sure so we'll have to wait and see."

Our reasonable proud Scot might understandably be rather concerned about that answer. "I'd like a bit more clarity and certainty first please."

"But we will be an independent, proud nation, free from the shackles of the Westminster shysters, free to go our own way."

"We can stand proud amongst the community of nations, free and independent."

"Except we might not be free and independent from the Bank of England - actually it would be best if we weren't. Oh and it might be quite a good idea to not be free and independent of the European Union. Oh and the Queen will still be head of state."

"It'll be fine - you wait and see."

At this point, our proud Scot, being a person of intelligence and pragmatism, tells the giver of these answers to go on one.

The question should be along the lines of - Should Scotland negotiate the conditions favourable for achieving independence?

That is reasonable and sensible. The current question is not.
 
Bobsyeruncle said:
Bernie, A lot of what I hear is opinions. You have yours, and I have mine. Even Steep has one. Your opinion is that everyone is being misled, lied to, duped etc by SNP. My opinion is different.(I'm not stupid, and don't for one minute believe all is going to be easy or there won't be many many challenges ahead). Independence is not all about the SNP. Other parties support it. Are they all cheating liars? You may think so, but I don't.
A lot of the posts on here just keep going round in pointless circles. Who knows, maybe you will be right, and we'll find out that we've all been duped, and if so, we will deal with it, but maybe you will be wrong.
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They go round in circles as the conversation and discussion keep on being evaded. The questions aren't being addressed. It all comes across very emotive to me without some actual strategy and vision other than escape England and Westminster at any cost. As there are no answers and the rethoric keeps on being brought up, no wonder it seems like it is going in circles.

You keep on saying it is not just the snp and there are lots of parties. Unfortunately if there are so many how come we only hear from the snp. And how come a lot of uncertainties are being presented like they have been sorted when they have not.

I have no issue with uncertainties. I understand that not everything can be known now. And that if there is a yes a lot will need need to be discussed and defined in the subsequent period. However let's be honest about it, let's not pull the wool over people's faces, let start this amazing opportunity on an honest and open basis. The best basis to be able to define what the future will look like is to understand the challenge ahead and work at it.
 
Bobsyeruncle said:
Some of these articles are pointless. (I don't mean just the one you've posted) again, no one actually knows for certain.
In that article, 2 experts from the same university state 2 completely different opinions.
Who do you believe? Depends on whether you're in the Yes camp or No camp. No real help, so pretty pointless in my opinion.
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Actually, the difference in expert opinions show how uncertain the resource currently is. That seems to me to be an argument for No as it doesn't seem wise to put your faith in something largely unknown.

Mikesphotaes said:
Anyway, it was nice to see all the main English party leaders up here on a wee freebie!
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I find this kind of comment pretty annoying to be honest. Salmond has been complaining for a long time that Cameron hasn't got involved and now he finally has... more complaints. :/
 
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personally I think the Yes campaign is based on If, Buts and Maybes. No real answers and no real solutions.
its become about politics, not Nationality - Blame the Tories, westminster knows nowt, even though they dont run the scottish parliament, save the NHS even though its run by scottish parliament, and kill the bedroom tax, even if the scottish MPs didnt make the vote.

its about mistruths and misquotes - there is loads of oil, 24 billion barrels!! we can use the Pound, its ours!! Nato want us! EU membership is assured! Save the NHS!

and its pitting the Scottish people against each other. sad times.
 
Matt said:
......... and its pitting the Scottish people against each other. sad times.
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Indeed it is :(
And I'd like to think it'll all be over in a couple of days, which ever side wins.
But sadly I doubt that it'll be the case.
(Which ever wins)
 
Matt said:
personally I think the Yes campaign is based on If, Buts and Maybes. No real answers and no real solutions.
its become about politics, not Nationality - Blame the Tories, westminster knows nowt, even though they dont run the scottish parliament, save the NHS even though its run by scottish parliament, and kill the bedroom tax, even if the scottish MPs didnt make the vote.

its about mistruths and misquotes - there is loads of oil, 24 billion barrels!! we can use the Pound, its ours!! Nato want us! EU membership is assured! Save the NHS!

and its pitting the Scottish people against each other. sad times.
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There is lots of oil, maybe not 24 billion barrels, but still lots.
We can use the pound.
NATO haven't said they don't want us.
EU membership is assured, we know we will have to reapply. we just don't know the terms yet.
The NHS will be safe.
It's not sad times, the Scottish people are getting involved, debating, some more passionately than others. We are not killing each other, and never will be. Regardless of the result, we will get on with our lives, each other, our English neighbours etc etc.
 
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Cameron was wearing a purple tie today - UKIP colours ! which reminds me isn't Nigel Farage due up in the next few days for pint or two. ?

Strange when the Yes vote were in the lead it was very noisy on here. Funny now that the No vote has swung back the other way it's all gone very quiet.....,
 
Bobsyeruncle said:
There is lots of oil, maybe not 24 billion barrels, but still lots.
We can use the pound.
NATO haven't said they don't want us.
EU membership is assured, we just don't know the terms yet.
The NHS will be safe.
It's not sad times, the Scottish people are getting involved, debating, some more passionately than others. We are not killing each other, and never will be. Regardless of the result, we will get on with our lives, each other, our English neighbours etc etc.
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NATO haven't said no because Independent Scotland have not applied to join yet,
 
Blank_Canvas said:
Cameron was wearing a purple tie today - UKIP colours ! which reminds me isn't Nigel Farage due up in the next few days for pint or two. ?

Strange when the Yes vote were in the lead it was very noisy on here. Funny now that the No vote has swung back the other way it's all gone very quiet.....,
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Doesn't seem quiet to me:p We all know where the Daily Records allegiance lies :eek:
 
Mikesphotaes said:
Not a replier either by the looks of it!

All in all you want to promote the scaremongerers!
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No I don't. I'm just sick of having no real answers, half truths and lies, from BOTH sides. My heart says yes, my head says justify it. I really don't give a flying fig for Bonnie prince Charlie, William Wallace, Robert the Bruce or Rabbie Burns. They're all dead and quite honestly totally irrelevant to this referendum, it's about the future, not the ancient (or even recent) past.

What I am concerned about is making a decision that I can live with and be happy about down the line, good or bad, right or wrong.
 
Bobsyeruncle said:
There is lots of oil, maybe not 24 billion barrels, but still lots.
We can use the pound.
NATO haven't said they don't want us.
EU membership is assured, we know we will have to reapply. we just don't know the terms yet.
The NHS will be safe.
It's not sad times, the Scottish people are getting involved, debating, some more passionately than others. We are not killing each other, and never will be. Regardless of the result, we will get on with our lives, each other, our English neighbours etc etc.
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I hope there is no violence after, buy its all a bit bitter.

The other points, you've made the point for me about all those things. There MIGHT be enough oil
You can use the pound, but at what cost?
NATO may want to leave some nukes laying about for you to join
Join the EU and be dictated to, ok from Brussels but not London?
NHS safe? That's politics...
 
Matt said:
I hope there is no violence after, buy its all a bit bitter.

The other points, you've made the point for me about all those things. There MIGHT be enough oil
You can use the pound, but at what cost?
NATO may want to leave some nukes laying about for you to join
Join the EU and be dictated to, ok from Brussels but not London?
NHS safe? That's politics...
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I don't think there will be violence after the result.
I would be in favour of us having our own currency, and think that we will at some point. I'm sure we will use the pound in some shape or form. Not sure what the cost would be. Things would be difficult for a number of years, but we would deal with it. No pain, no gain.
Ok from Brussels but not London? Depends on how you look at it. At the moment we're being dictated to by Both.
There are nato members who don't have nuclear weapons on their soil, why should Scotland?
The NHS in Scotland isn't doing too badly at present, but if our overall funding is cut, then who knows what may/may not happen.
 
Matt said:
I hope there is no violence after, buy its all a bit bitter.

The other points, .
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The other points, you've made the point for me about all those things. There MIGHT be enough oil - The oil is a bonus however much there is of it.
You can use the pound, but at what cost? - tba I suppose.
NATO may want to leave some nukes laying about for you to join - only 3 out of 28 NATO members are nuclear states, some others hold nukes, by no means all.
Join the EU and be dictated to, ok from Brussels but not London? - There is a difference between being a minor entity in the North of Britain and an independent nation able to speak for itself.
NHS safe? That's politics.. - Safer we feel and it would be written in to the constitution.
 
Lloyds, The Royal Bank of Scotland are going to move their operations down to the *City of London. Does that not concern you, Seriously, what does that tell you ?

Concerned for Scotland's future you should be?

Independence does not mean independence. If you choose the pound it will be controlled by the *City of London / Bank of England. If you choose the Euro it will be controlled by Brussels.

The oil factor is the biggest myth, You can't influence outside factors. BP don't support independence and urge people to vote No. Scotland will bankrupt itself before it's even legally established as an Independent state.
 
thats a good way to do it with Nato, kind of like community wardens. shame to lose the subs ports though

i thought oil was the main economic lynchpin of economy? now its just a bonus?
 
Matt said:
thats a good way to do it with Nato, kind of like community wardens. shame to lose the subs ports though

i thought oil was the main economic lynchpin of economy? now its just a bonus?
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It will account for around 15% of our economy. Any oil is a bonus, and won't be taken for granted. We are grateful that we have oil, and the revenue that it brings won't be wasted.
Is having oil a bad thing?
 
Blank_Canvas said:
Lloyds, The Royal Bank of Scotland are going to move their operations down to the *City of London. Does that not concern you, Seriously, what does that tell you ?
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It tells me you haven't done your homework.

Lloyds head office and main operations is already in London, their HQ has been there for a hundred years. All they have in Scotland is a brass plaque on a wall, their 'registered office'.
What Lloyds have already started to do is separate the two businesses Lloyds in England and HBoS in Scotland but that's part of the criteria they had to meet when they took over HBoS.

RBS do employ a lot of people in Scotland in the personal banking area but they do most of their financial market business (which is far and away the most of their total business) in London
 
Matt, it's the yes campaigns assertion that Scotland could and would be a prosperous country with or without the oil, the oil will make things easier for a very long time but we could get by without it quite nicely.
 
Blank_Canvas said:
Lloyds, The Royal Bank of Scotland are going to move their operations down to the *City of London. Does that not concern you, Seriously, what does that tell you ?

Concerned for Scotland's future you should be?

Independence does not mean independence. If you choose the pound it will be controlled by the *City of London / Bank of England. If you choose the Euro it will be controlled by Brussels.

The oil factor is the biggest myth, You can't influence outside factors. BP don't support independence and urge people to vote No. Scotland will bankrupt itself before it's even legally established as an Independent state.
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Lloyds head office is already in England. RBS has 2 head offices, one of which is already in London.
Both banks currently carry out most of their business in England, not Scotland.
Neither have stated that they will move, but they may have to under EU rules, but then again they may not.
If they do move south though, what was stated on the BBC website as I've pasted below, implies it would be worse for the union.
Where would that leave your argument?

"Or to put it another way, Lloyds' and RBS' home in Scotland can be seen as good and bad for both sides in the independence argument.

But if these homes would come to London more-or-less automatically in the event of a vote for separation, then it means that their future would no longer be part of the cut and thrust of the referendum battle.

And, on balance, it may be that the automatic nature of relocation to England would be worse for the pro-union campaign - because it means the financial risks of a monetary union with Scotland would reduced."
 
Steep said:


It tells me you haven't done your homework.

Lloyds head office and main operations is already in London, their HQ has been there for a hundred years. All they have in Scotland is a brass plaque on a wall, their 'registered office'.
What Lloyds have already started to do is separate the two businesses Lloyds in England and HBoS in Scotland but that's part of the criteria they had to meet when they took over HBoS.

RBS do employ a lot of people in Scotland in the personal banking area but they do most of their financial market business (which is far and away the most of their total business) in London
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Semantics !

Centre of operations, HQ, call it what you will they are clearing their desks as we speak and heading for London....

.......and if you've done your homework you know I'm always right ! ;)
 
Blank_Canvas said:
Semantics !

Centre of operations, HQ, call it what you will they are clearing their desks as we speak and heading for London....

.......and if you've done your homework you know I'm always right ! ;)
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No they're not!
However, since they are/were 2 of the biggest financial liabilities to the UK government....you can have them.:p
 
Bobsyeruncle said:
It will account for around 15% of our economy. Any oil is a bonus, and won't be taken for granted. We are grateful that we have oil, and the revenue that it brings won't be wasted.
Is having oil a bad thing?
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Is that tax income or economic activity?

Regards...
 
Bobsyeruncle said:
No they're not!
However, since they are/were 2 of the biggest financial liabilities to the UK government....you can have them.:p
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It's already printed in tomorrow's quality papers. If Scotland gain independence it's Auld Lang Syne and farewell Edinburgh !
 
Bobsyeruncle said:
There is lots of oil, maybe not 24 billion barrels, but still lots.
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So, really, no one actually knows....

Bobsyeruncle said:
We can use the pound.
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Yes, like Zimbabwe uses the US$, you can use the pound, currency union is a whole different thing though.

Bobsyeruncle said:
NATO haven't said they don't want us.
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They haven't said they want you either.

Bobsyeruncle said:
EU membership is assured, we know we will have to reapply. we just don't know the terms yet.
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Unless when you reapply an existing member vetoes your application.

Bobsyeruncle said:
The NHS will be safe.
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Unless Salmond sends your economy down the tubes and there isn't the money for it to remain as it is

Bobsyeruncle said:
It's not sad times, the Scottish people are getting involved, debating, some more passionately than others. We are not killing each other, and never will be. Regardless of the result, we will get on with our lives, each other, our English neighbours etc etc.
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Everything is if, perhaps, maybe, hopefully, possibly, in the eyes of the SNP and the rabid yes-men on this forum, all those words suddenly mean "definitely".
 
Dave1 said:
Everything is if, perhaps, maybe, hopefully, possibly, in the eyes of the SNP and the rabid yes-men on this forum, all those words suddenly mean "definitely".
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In the eyes of the no campaign, its all if, might, could, so in the eyes of the rabid no men on this forum, all these words suddenly mean definitely. Works both ways.
 
A lot of people born, but not living in Scotland seem unhappy that they can't vote. Most would vote no as far as I can tell. I'm guessing they're worried for what this will mean if they want to move back. And of course, if Scotland goes for the euro, having to change money when visiting. For some with relatives I'm assuming that could be often.

Now I'm seeing more and more about Cornwall going independent again. I'm not sure what % of people living here were born here, we get a lot moving down for retirement. I think Scotland's vote is going to influence if this is another month of it then all going quiet, or if Cornwall really goes for independence. I'd support us being a country like Wales is currently, but not fully independent like a lot want.

I wish people would look at facts, not spin doctors. If I had more scots on my news feed I think they'd go in an ignore group until it'd been over for a month.
 
Sir Ian Woods, being interviewed by the BBC on his retirement saying there's 25 billion barrels of oil in the North Sea.

 
Steep said:
Sir Ian Woods, being interviewed by the BBC on his retirement saying there's 25 billion barrels of oil in the North Sea.

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So the question is.....was he lying then or is he lying now? Or is he just another so called expert that hasn't got a clue?
Either way, there's still a lot of oil to be had.
 
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Could somebody tell Steven it would work out at about 200 billion per year.
 
Bobsyeruncle said:
So the question is.....was he lying then or is he lying now? Or is he just another so called expert that hasn't got a clue?
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He was on TV again tonight saying he'd been misquoted and yes camp figures were exaggerated..
 
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