An Independent Scotland?

The referendum should be illegal 16 / 17 year olds voting. I still have no idea how this is even lawful under the constitution.
 
Blank_Canvas said:
The referendum should be illegal 16 / 17 year olds voting. I still have no idea how this is even lawful under the constitution.
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Salmond realised they would be easier to influence and more likely to believe his hype than older people, makes sense from his perspective.
 
Dave1 said:
Salmond realised they would be easier to influence and more likely to believe his hype than older people, makes sense from his perspective.
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Easier to influence = unethical and morally corrupt. Why would you place your trust and Scotland's future in the hands of this totalitarian buffoon ? - It beggars belief !
 
Dave1 said:
Salmond realised they would be easier to influence and more likely to believe his hype than older people, makes sense from his perspective.
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From the things I saw months ago, this was back firing when they did mock ballots at schools. The majority were voting No.

Blank_Canvas said:
Easier to influence = unethical and morally corrupt. Why would you place your trust and Scotland's future in the hands of this totalitarian buffoon ? - It beggars belief !
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Can you say Cameron, clegg or darling are any better…what makes them any better to trust.
Swapping one buffoon for another makes little difference, there front men who have no idea how people in this country actually live, most have been born with golden spoons since birth and will never have to worry for anything in there life's, whether there working or after.


Im still unsure what way I'm going, there seems to be to much bullish*t coming from both camps to take anything as fact and not just scare mongering or guess work.
My biggest worry is that we end with a NO vote and get crucified for it, like we did last time from my understanding.


On the hatred side of things and bringing out the worst it can't be just said that it is the yes voters alone, there is as much hatred and abuse from the No camp, aimed at the yes votes, salmond and even the scottish from the english supporters.
 
Don't ask us for help when the Scandinavians invade the Shetlands
 
I really don't understand why some people are still pondering or are decided on which way to vote. The political and fiscal evidence is out there for all to see and analyse if you understand it and can wade through the BS. To vote yes is akin to political financial suicide for Scotland. It's all going to come down to a head or hearts vote. Hopefully people will use their heads and use their vote wisely. There will be no turning back.
 
To be honest there is so much misinformation that it would be difficult for anyone to make a fair judgement on what is best let's look at different points
Currency union is it possible yes but Salmond is forgetting Scotland would only have a percentage share in what he could do so in reality the rest of the UK would have the deciding percentage so the currency would always be run by the majority vote.
Talk on defaulting on Scotland's share of the debt would result in the UK stopping all cash payments to Scotland and freezing of any assets of the Scottish people think about iceland it would be very messy to say the least. It would also effect borrowimg
Is EU membership guaranteed no. The way I understand it is that entrance for Scotland as a seperate state/country means that the treaty would need to be ratified that would mean it would need to be a unanimous vote. I really can't see all of the other countries allowing Scotland entry on Mr Salmonds terms. There would be some horse trading. With the Euro being one of the main stumbling blocks
EU membership when you do get in how much will it cost each individual tax payer remember Mr Salmonds words about you being a wealthier nation without the UK again you probably will end up paying more.
Suppose you decide you don't like the terms of EU membership how much will you be taxed on goods and then there would have to be a border between the rest of the UK and Scotland plus Visas and Passports.
Flip side of the coin Trident but even now I bet plans are being already made as a stop gap.
Ship building will again move south of the border why allow the workers taxes to go into a foreign governments pockets.
Again as I said before there could be the backlash effect on Scottish goods.
Just suppose things go badly what's to stop Shetland voting for Independence and taking her oil fields with her. This is a bit like Pandoras box neither side can answer the Independence question because the reality is you can't guess the answers to what other people will do.

Please note this is just the way I see it and if I was voting I would be considering these points more than any other. People will try and put spin on them but these same questions will still need answering.
 
Turn the question on it's head.

Imagine Scotland was holding a referendum to join a union with the UK today.


The UK is £1.5 Trillion in debt and rising.

Both Major political parties have commited themselves to another £25 billion austerity cuts in the next parliament.

There's a real likelyhood that the next UK parliament will be a coalition with UKIP, which could mean _
An exit from the EU.
Stop all immigration
Flat 31% tax rate for everyone over £11,500
Cut Local authority spending to 1997 levels while..
Increasing defence spending by 40% and buying 3 more aircraft carriers and 50 more Lightnings.
Double prison size across the Uk.

With or without UKIP, the NHS will continue to be privatised (Tories are doing it but Labour tried first)

90% of your oil wealth will go to Westminster who's politicians are steeped in corruption and self interest.

Would you, as an independent Scot vote to join that ^ ?

If not why would you ever consider voting to stay?
 
I would like to see UKIP in Government they would get my vote. A party with common sense and ever increasing support.
 
For all the positive aspects of immigration there's also a lot of negative, especially towards our public services and infrastructure. I'm not against immigration, but it has to be very tightly controlled with very strict entry requirements.
 
Steep said:
Turn the question on it's head.

Imagine Scotland was holding a referendum to join a union with the UK today.


The UK is £1.5 Trillion in debt and rising.

Both Major political parties have commited themselves to another £25 billion austerity cuts in the next parliament.

There's a real likelyhood that the next UK parliament will be a coalition with UKIP, which could mean _
An exit from the EU.
Stop all immigration
Flat 31% tax rate for everyone over £11,500
Cut Local authority spending to 1997 levels while..
Increasing defence spending by 40% and buying 3 more aircraft carriers and 50 more Lightnings.
Double prison size across the Uk.

With or without UKIP, the NHS will continue to be privatised (Tories are doing it but Labour tried first)

90% of your oil wealth will go to Westminster who's politicians are steeped in corruption and self interest.

Would you, as an independent Scot vote to join that ^ ?

If not why would you ever consider voting to stay?
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But that is not what is being asked.
 
Blank_Canvas said:
I would like to see UKIP in Government they would get my vote. A party with common sense and ever increasing support.
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The point I'm making tongue-in-cheek is that before you know it by voting for a leader like Salmond or Farage for that matter, you run the risk of completely destroying the finances of the country, the constitution and everything that is right and ethical.
 
Steep said:
Turn the question on it's head.

Imagine Scotland was holding a referendum to join a union with the UK today.


The UK is £1.5 Trillion in debt and rising.

Both Major political parties have commited themselves to another £25 billion austerity cuts in the next parliament.

There's a real likelyhood that the next UK parliament will be a coalition with UKIP, which could mean _
An exit from the EU.
Stop all immigration
Flat 31% tax rate for everyone over £11,500
Cut Local authority spending to 1997 levels while..
Increasing defence spending by 40% and buying 3 more aircraft carriers and 50 more Lightnings.
Double prison size across the Uk.

With or without UKIP, the NHS will continue to be privatised (Tories are doing it but Labour tried first)

90% of your oil wealth will go to Westminster who's politicians are steeped in corruption and self interest.

Would you, as an independent Scot vote to join that ^ ?

If not why would you ever consider voting to stay?
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interested to know where you get the info, like 31% tax rate and increase in defence spending?

watched a nice video of the Yes campaign bullying and intimidating people during the campaign. No real arguments to put across from the people involved so they shout a lot and chuck eggs at people, while intimidating other people. Thats not the way to do it and would likely cost more votes. The guy who did the egging walked off sharply but someone filmed him being a coward and effing off up an alleyway.
 
Matt, the figures came from UKIPs manifesto, feel free to check for yourself.

Not seen the video you mention but I think I can guarantee you didn't see the whole story and isn't it strange that the Jim Murphy egging got nationwide coverage but an 80yr old pensioner who had his arm broken for handing out yes leaflets didn't get a mention?
Yes Scotland have asked yes supporters to stay away from BT events and gatherings form now on though as it just gives them ammunition to use against us.
 
Well when one party has more seats than all the others put together then new proposals such as the voting age can still be considered questionable.
 
Bobsyeruncle said:
We heard you the first time. It's legal, get over it and change the record.
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We ?

I still never got an answer how is underage voting legal ? - I still believe this could be challenged at a later date - legal perhaps (?) but still immoral which brings me on to my next point. Your Ironic comment - I thought Scotland believed in freedom of speech? - Quite a lot of published cases recently where the SNP have tried to stifle this.

Bobsyeruncle said:
We heard you the first time. It's legal, get over it and change the record.
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You're reply typifies the Nuremberg defence "we were just following orders !" - I witnessed the scenes in Dunfermline of underage drinkers being enticed to vote by SNP officials and scantly glad models.

If you believe in free speech, democracy and common decency, you should speak out against this. Not go along with the flow and say it's all ok lets just go with it ! - do you really wan't that written in the next chapter of Scotland's history "How we gained independence" if it gets that far !

You asked me to change the record so I have and for a bit of light relief I give you.......

 
Blank_Canvas said:
I thought Scotland believed in freedom of speech? - Quite a lot of published cases recently where the SNP have tried to stifle this[/MEDIA]
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And typical of you, make grossly ridiculous statements without linking a shred of evidence.
 
Steep said:


And typical of you, make grossly ridiculous statements without linking a shred of evidence.
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To be fair, in that particular point it was done before. About £200K of tax payers money if I recall correctly.
 
Blank_Canvas said:
We ?

I still never got an answer how is underage voting legal ? - I still believe this could be challenged at a later date - legal perhaps (?) but still immoral which brings me on to my next point. Your Ironic comment - I thought Scotland believed in freedom of speech? - Quite a lot of published cases recently where the SNP have tried to stifle this.



You're reply typifies the Nuremberg defence "we were just following orders !" - I witnessed the scenes in Dunfermline of underage drinkers being enticed to vote by SNP officials and scantly glad models.

If you believe in free speech, democracy and common decency, you should speak out against this. Not go along with the flow and say it's all ok lets just go with it ! - do you really wan't that written in the next chapter of Scotland's history "How we gained independence" if it gets that far !

You asked me to change the record so I have and for a bit of light relief I give you.......

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I believe in freedom of speech, and if you witnessed such a thing, then speak away, but don't make the mistake of assuming that all 16/17 year olds are underage drinkers, and incapable of forming their own opinions.
Nuremberg? Get a grip! I was in Auschwitz on Friday, harrowing to say the least. What has Scottish independence got to do with war crimes?

You are entitled to your opinion, and I'm entitled to mine, and in my opinion you are starting to sound like a crackpot:p
 
Steep said:
Matt, the figures came from UKIPs manifesto, feel free to check for yourself.

Not seen the video you mention but I think I can guarantee you didn't see the whole story and isn't it strange that the Jim Murphy egging got nationwide coverage but an 80yr old pensioner who had his arm broken for handing out yes leaflets didn't get a mention?
Yes Scotland have asked yes supporters to stay away from BT events and gatherings form now on though as it just gives them ammunition to use against us.
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if thats in UKIP manifesto, and they are the other party to make up a full government, the tax wont get voted through as politicians know what keeps them in power...

the video: http://player.vimeo.com/video/104844421

the old guy who knocked over by a fat woman who had had enough of him? slightly different from an orchestrated campaign of intimidation by cowardly thugs and morons.
 
Matt said:
orchestrated campaign of intimidation
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And you have proof of this?


Fat woman who'd had enough of him??? jesus christ! you think that's a reasonable excuse to attack an old man and break his arm? What would you say was a reasonable excuse for the guy who kicked a woman in the stomach in Glasgow yesterday?
 
The behaviour in that video is an embarassment.
 
watch the video Hugh, looks like orchestrated when its being organised...

didnt know about the woman yesterday, no excuse for deliberate violence - I moosed it, cant find much news on it though other than Yes campaigners (a group) heckling No campaigner(a man with a megaphone), woman tries to grab megaphone and gets hurt in scuffle...no arrests and no further action by police as yet. No media coverage on it though it seems, which is odd.

the report I read suggested the woman knocked the old guy over by accident, not an attack, after running over to grab his placard as he was shouting and signing a lot outside her shop..maybe she'd had enough? No excuse to knock anyone over. There should be no intimidation, bullying, violence or the like, as when its all over, it will stay nasty

**edit** found a link to an article in the scotsman, 2 men with a megaphone, 1 has been detained, and it was a scuffle of around 40 people
 
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Yes I've watched the video, the behaviour in the clips is atrocious but I still don't see orchestrated there. Nothing in those clips says to me there's a directed campaign of violence or intimidation.

Yesterdays incident was apparently a confrontation between BNP and Yes supporters, 55yr old man arrested and charged. Anywhere else in the UK that would be front page news "pregnant woman kicked in stomach"! but it hardly got a mention. Someone cracks an egg on Jim Murphy's back and it's banner headlines in all the papers and on every news channel, that's orchestrated for you.
 
was she pregnant? i saw that claimed and denied in the same facebook link, and cant find any other reports on it that confirm or deny it anywhere else. cant find any video or photos either. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-29006306 not very widly covered at all.

so arranging for a group of people to turn up and 'give him a warm welcome' via facebook or twitter isnt orchestrated? the same people in some cases?

looks like the Yes campaign will get a big boost this week as Farage is coming to have a pint and do a talk in favour of the Union...
 
Matt said:
was she pregnant? i saw that claimed and denied in the same facebook link, and cant find any other reports on it that confirm or deny it anywhere else. cant find any video or photos either. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-29006306 not very widly covered at all.

so arranging for a group of people to turn up and 'give him a warm welcome' via facebook or twitter isnt orchestrated? the same people in some cases?

looks like the Yes campaign will get a big boost this week as Farage is coming to have a pint and do a talk in favour of the Union...
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Pregnant, like you I've seen it mentioned but without proper news coverage all you have to go on is hearsay.

Again, I've not seen the things you're talking about, didn't notice any of the same people in the clips in that video and not heard of any FB Twitter arranging.

Farage, all for independence as long as it's not Scotland that's getting it.
 
Farage is Salmond's secret weapon.
 
fracster said:
The behaviour in that video is an embarassment.
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:agree:

The video reminds me of all sorts of other Nationalist movements from all around the world! As one example, in Germany in the late 1920s and early 1930s, there was a Nationalist movement that was a Socialist Party which believed passionately not only in the pre-eminece of its State but also in the rightness [no pun] of its big self-Government. They too felt the need to shout down and intimidate people of opposing views whenever they spoke in public. They too believed they were right and the "foreigners" were all wrong!

Human behaviour hasn't changed much in eighty years but it is a pity that people cannot learn from their school history in their everyday lives or see themselves as others see them on video
 
having been party to some "free and fair" elections in some African countries, I despise the bullying antics and intimidation that appears to be going on. Both sides I hasten to add. I just hope that the good and fair people of Scotland realise how important this vote is and decide accordingly. The lowering of the voting age,specifically, for this referendum is a disgraceful act.
 
fracster said:
having been party to some "free and fair" elections in some African countries, I despise the bullying antics and intimidation that appears to be going on. Both sides I hasten to add. I just hope that the good and fair people of Scotland realise how important this vote is and decide accordingly. The lowering of the voting age,specifically, for this referendum is a disgraceful act.
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Why is it disgraceful? If you can get married at 16, why not vote?
Scotland are leading the way....it looks like others may follow!
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-21178379
 
Blank_Canvas said:
She's looking down on the mouse. This suggests to me that the 'yes' camp are in the minority. The union is elevated and more domineering. This may be intentional and reflect the feeling in Scotland. Art is very subjective of course.
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Looks to me like the Union is extremely worried.:)
 
numpty.png
 
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